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00:36:17  <Sutubra>Are all core modules native? Like HTTP and cluster? I'm assuming they can't be since they most likely do asynchronous work and interact with libuv directly?
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00:46:39  <sinclair|work>Sutubra: hey
00:47:01  <Sutubra>hi
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02:38:37  <Domenic_>Pausing/resuming TCP streams is done by adjusting the TCP window size, right?
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03:04:14  <tjfontaine>Domenic_: well, in the sense that you let the window fill because you've stopped reading it out from the kernel
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03:04:44  <tjfontaine>indutny: btw, happy (belated?) birthday
03:05:14  <Domenic_>tjfontaine: hmm, seems like my understanding is more tenuous than I thought. I'm trying to explain streams to web platform folks... could you help me understand what happens on the low-level when you call .pause() on a TCP stream? Or refer me to related reading?
03:05:43  <tjfontaine>you don't really call pause, you cease to read from it
03:06:21  <Domenic_>well I know that's how node's public API works in streams2+
03:06:30  <tjfontaine>which means you stop pulling the data out of the kernel, which then based on configuration, may induce the kernel to send a packet indicating that it's full
03:06:36  <Domenic_>but I was under the impression TCP sockets pushed data at you until you told them to stop ... somehow
03:06:55  <tjfontaine>you generally don't touch that part of the interface, you let the OS handle it for you
03:06:55  <Domenic_>and they were qualitatively different from file streams in that way
03:07:04  <Domenic_>huh...
03:07:14  <tjfontaine>you do need to be mindful of continuing to read in a timely manner from the tcp socket
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03:07:51  <tjfontaine>most kernels/operating systems, don't give you a stream interface
03:08:33  <tjfontaine>the interface we use today is largely defined as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_sockets
03:08:39  <Domenic_>oooh excellent
03:08:57  <Domenic_>yeah the impression i was under was that when node noticed its internal buffer had hit the high water mark, it ... did something ... to the socket.
03:09:23  <tjfontaine>we don't do anything special in that case, no
03:11:10  <Domenic_>so, uh, sounds like I got the first two sections at https://github.com/whatwg/streams/blob/master/Requirements.md#creating-readable-streams kinda wrong
03:12:20  <tjfontaine>so, in a TCP server <-> client operation, of say "sending file foo from server A to client B"
03:13:13  <tjfontaine>if server A just spews data indiscriminately at B, it's possible if B stops read()'ing for too long that the packets may be dropped in transit from A
03:13:23  <tjfontaine>but there are a lot of things going on in that case
03:13:59  <tjfontaine>am I making sense?
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03:14:56  <Domenic_>at a high level, yes... I guess I am concerned with how I should mentally model B's kernel?
03:15:22  <Domenic_>is it like... there's a limited buffer that gets filled up on B's side, and after it gets too full, older stuff gets pushed out?
03:16:38  <tjfontaine>nothing is pushed out of B, B (probably) has a fixed buffer size, and when that fills it sends a tcp packet indicating window full, and then you're relying on A's kernel to note that, and make sure that it tells the userspace to stop write()'ing [or block ont he write until it can continue]
03:17:03  <Domenic_>Ah OK, I think what I was missing was the existence of that TCP packet
03:17:37  <Domenic_>so what happens if B's fixed buffer gets full, but then A sends more data
03:17:42  <tjfontaine>in epoll/kqueue/portfs semantics, you're getting POLLOUT or POLLIN when it's ok to read or write, and you stop getting those when it's nto ok
03:17:55  <tjfontaine>generally B doesn't ACK
03:18:54  <tjfontaine>in blocking mode, read()/write() just wait until the OS says its ok to continue on
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08:41:58  <indutny>tjfontaine: thank you!
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11:37:04  <mmalecki>indutny: happy birthday!
11:37:16  <indutny>thank you!
11:37:18  <indutny>:)
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14:36:11  <roxlu>hi guys, libuv doesn't have date util functions right?
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15:00:40  <tjfontaine>indutny: man I really wish we had hte http parser in javascript :)
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15:23:13  <petka_>tjfontaine: yea :P
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16:17:13  <indutny>tjfontaine: yeah
16:17:15  <indutny>and tls too
16:17:26  <indutny>though, I'm wasting my time on everything else except that :D
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16:19:16  <tjfontaine>:)
16:21:02  <tjfontaine>ok so today is going to be a release day, time to burn through some PRs
16:21:54  <indutny>0.11?
16:22:01  <tjfontaine>both 0.11 and 0.10
16:23:34  <indutny>tjfontaine: https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/6859
16:23:39  <indutny>python 2.6 support dropped
16:23:42  <indutny>after gyp update :(
16:24:43  <indutny>should we just update our README?
16:25:32  <tjfontaine>I'm actually looking through the gyp changes, they generally try and support 2.6
16:25:45  <tjfontaine>it may just need yet-another-update
16:26:31  <indutny>oh
16:26:33  <indutny>perhaps
16:28:42  <tjfontaine>https://code.google.com/p/gyp/source/browse/trunk/pylib/gyp/mac_tool.py#506
16:28:44  <tjfontaine>maybe not
16:29:27  <tjfontaine>this may only be a problem on the specific gyp file for http_parser I guess
16:31:33  <tjfontaine>I'm almost to the point where I'd like to start maintaining this on our own :/
16:31:46  <tjfontaine>not that we need more work
16:32:31  <tjfontaine>indutny: would you mind doing a gyp update, and then floating a patch for this?
16:32:55  <indutny>ыгку
16:32:59  <indutny>ерщгпр
16:33:00  <indutny>sure
16:33:00  <indutny>though
16:33:12  <indutny>I'll need to figure out first how to make it work on python 2.6
16:33:14  <indutny>:D
16:33:18  <tjfontaine>his example is right
16:33:20  <indutny>oh
16:33:21  <indutny>I see
16:33:25  <indutny>ok
16:33:28  <indutny>let's do an update
16:33:58  <tjfontaine>if it's not right, the build will fail :P
16:34:54  <indutny>oook :D
16:41:10  <piscisaureus>indutny: happy birthday
16:41:16  <piscisaureus>(happy birthnight in russia?)
16:41:59  <tjfontaine>he's in london town :)
16:42:57  <piscisaureus>tjfontaine: where's your execSync improvement branch?
16:43:18  <tjfontaine>still on my laptop at the moment, I will get it out this afternoon whilst doing the releases
16:46:26  <indutny>piscisaureus: thank you!
16:49:28  <indutny>tjfontaine: almost done with gyp
16:49:36  <indutny>piscisaureus: we have a plenty of windows issues on github
16:49:41  <indutny>mind having a look today? :)
16:49:43  <indutny>or this week
16:50:00  <piscisaureus>indutny: this week is okay. Today I'm writing a talk
16:50:06  <indutny>great!
16:50:34  <tjfontaine>as part of my burn down on PRs I'm going to do a pass on AlexisMocha's work, generally things seem fine
16:50:52  <piscisaureus>tjfontaine: great! :)
16:50:59  <piscisaureus>tjfontaine: I agree
16:51:19  <tjfontaine>I'll be moving the debugger tests out of the way as well, frustratingly
16:51:31  <AlexisMocha>tjfontaine: sweet! let me know if I can clarify anything
16:51:38  <tjfontaine>AlexisMocha: yup, will do
16:53:37  <indutny>tjfontaine: see this https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/6861
16:53:42  <indutny>tjfontaine: yeah
16:56:47  <tjfontaine>indutny: lgtm, can you see if you can get the user to test and verify?
16:57:04  <indutny>oh, right
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17:21:52  <creationix>Is there a secret to using the latest npm on windows?
17:22:03  <tjfontaine>hm?
17:22:07  <creationix>npm seems busted and running `npm update -g` doesn't help
17:22:22  <tjfontaine>busted how?
17:22:25  <creationix>I can't `npm adduser`. I had the same issue on linux, but updating npm fixed it
17:22:42  <creationix>Error: default value must be string or number
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17:22:42  <creationix> at read (c:\Program Files\nodejs\node_modules\npm\node_modules\read\lib\read.js:15:11)
17:24:50  <indutny>tjfontaine: https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/6828#issuecomment-31929602
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17:25:30  <tjfontaine>indutny: I'm skeptical of course
17:25:39  <indutny>well
17:25:46  <indutny>it seems to be causing fatal exception
17:26:07  <indutny>ok, asked him additional question
17:26:23  <tjfontaine>right, that's the proper followup question :)
17:27:59  <creationix>tjfontaine, hmm, it's only busted when running adduser in the git bash terminal. Windows' normal cmd.exe works fine.
17:28:33  <tjfontaine>creationix: ah, excellent test case for the npm folk then :)
17:28:34  <creationix>probably related to the password input code not working and node getting an empty string
17:28:38  <tjfontaine>indeed
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17:32:46  <indutny>git bash is fucked
17:32:51  <indutny>as windows itself is :D
17:32:58  <indutny>tjfontaine: any objections to https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/6821 ?
17:33:00  <indutny>i.e.
17:33:15  <indutny>reversing condition for concatenating headers
17:33:24  <indutny>from some
17:33:26  <indutny>to not some
17:33:27  <indutny>:D
17:34:00  <tjfontaine>I'm not opposed to it, it seems there's precedence for it at least, I'm worried though about the subtle semantic change though
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17:34:54  <indutny>yeah
17:34:58  <indutny>but
17:35:01  <indutny>it's landing in v0.11
17:35:05  <indutny>people will adapt
17:35:05  <indutny>:D
17:35:08  <tjfontaine>hah
17:35:09  <indutny>running tests right now
17:37:56  <indutny>ok, landing it
17:38:04  <MI6>joyent/node: Alex Kocharin master * ec57ecc : http: concatenate duplicate headers by default - http://git.io/CQw-Fg
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17:43:36  <MI6>joyent/libuv: Nathan Sweet master * acb9f89 : doc: adding ARCHS flag to OS X build command - http://git.io/G6o9dQ
17:44:18  <tjfontaine>does that actually work though?
17:44:23  <tjfontaine>well I guess it may
17:50:50  <indutny>tjfontaine: yep
17:50:54  <indutny>tests are passing
17:51:01  <indutny>aaah
17:51:09  <indutny>yes, it does
17:51:15  <indutny>so
17:53:23  <indutny>I closed this v
17:53:23  <indutny>https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/6853
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17:56:21  <tjfontaine>it is frustrating that we do have a style that is not enforced by our linter
17:56:38  <indutny>well
17:56:45  <indutny>perhaps
17:56:57  <indutny>but parsing C++ correctly is quite a hard task
17:57:06  <indutny>how do you imagine to distinguish
17:57:08  <indutny>a * b
17:57:10  <indutny>from
17:57:12  <indutny>type* b
17:57:16  <tjfontaine>sure, the best tool to do it is actually libclang
17:57:21  <indutny>yeah
17:57:22  <indutny>but
17:57:26  <tjfontaine>or any real frontend utility
17:57:28  <indutny>we can't have it in our tree
17:57:33  <tjfontaine>we can have it as a dep
17:57:39  <tjfontaine>it's not entirely unreasonable
17:57:54  <tjfontaine>they supply binary tarball builds
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17:58:03  <tjfontaine>I mean if we're going to care about it :)
17:58:14  <tjfontaine>anyway, not important for the short term
17:58:24  <indutny>yeah, doesn't seem to be
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17:59:13  <tjfontaine>it is something we should keep in mind though, if we do add libclang as a development utility we could actually do work to determine if HandleScope's are on the stack and things like that
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18:27:42  <ryah>hello
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18:29:15  <ryah>tjfontaine: is there an eta on v12?
18:29:33  <tjfontaine>when it's ready :)
18:29:42  <tjfontaine>my intention is to freeze and branch end of week
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18:30:59  <ryah>cool
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19:10:54  <MI6>libuv-v0.10: #149 UNSTABLE smartos (4/191) http://jenkins.nodejs.org/job/libuv-v0.10/149/
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19:26:12  <tjfontaine>so I'm going to move the debugger tests into test/debugger any objections?
19:26:19  <tjfontaine>even in v0.10
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19:26:44  <tjfontaine>trevnorris, indutny, isaacs?
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20:42:08  <indutny>tjfontaine: hey man
20:42:14  <indutny>tjfontaine: I'm ok with it
20:42:18  <indutny>if it'll help CI
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21:00:08  <tjfontaine>indutny: ok thanks
21:05:23  <tjfontaine>indutny: btw, make sure you land doc fixes on v0.10 (if they apply there)
21:05:52  <indutny>k
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21:07:27  <tjfontaine>I've also commented regarding rakm's real name
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21:21:19  <MI6>joyent/node: Alexis Campailla v0.10 * 1b74892 : test: close debug client in test-debugger-client (+1 more commits) - http://git.io/17IYQg
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21:23:55  <trevnorris>afternoon. just woke up. can't seem to shake this cold.
21:24:13  <tjfontaine>:/
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21:28:36  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: when were we supposed to meetup or whatever?
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21:29:07  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: wednesday at new relic, you mean?
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21:31:12  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: could we possibly push that to the evening? I overlooked that wife has a doc appt over lunch.
21:31:40  <tjfontaine>I'd rather not do it outside of the work hours, maybe a different day?
21:31:43  <tjfontaine>othiym23, groundwater
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21:32:22  <trevnorris>hueniverse: ping
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21:37:19  <MI6>joyent/node: Sam Roberts v0.10 * 7bd6e33 : doc: streams must be open to be passed to child - http://git.io/hgYR9A
21:38:14  <hueniverse>trevnorris: pong
21:38:34  <trevnorris>hueniverse: just wondering if you've had a chance to run tests against latest master?
21:38:42  <hueniverse>I did
21:38:48  <hueniverse>like 5 failed
21:38:57  <hueniverse>but didn't have time to look deeper
21:39:06  <hueniverse>hoping tomorrow
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21:50:26  <othiym23>tjfontaine, trevnorris, groundwater I'm free pretty much every day except today and I am free outside of work hours but would also prefer to do it on the clock
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22:08:33  <tjfontaine>groundwater, othiym23, trevnorris: how about thursday? tuedsay is generally my MeetingDay(tm)
22:10:16  <othiym23>tjfontaine: isn't Tuesday core-team meeting call?
22:10:19  <othiym23>or is that done by lunch?
22:10:37  <tjfontaine>it's thursday's at 9am ~ 10am right now
22:10:39  <trevnorris>can't make it by lunch.
22:10:49  <trevnorris>could be there at 3
22:10:52  <othiym23>afternoon is fine!
22:13:00  <othiym23>trevnorris, tjfontaine: groundwater and I are talking about maybe structuring the meeting a little so that we can get the most out of it
22:13:27  <tjfontaine>tomorrow at 3?
22:13:40  <tjfontaine>othiym23: in what regards?
22:16:23  <othiym23>tjfontaine: having the conversation be directed towards a. having a shared understanding of the problem(s) to be solved, b. establishing a common vocabulary for talking about the problem space and c. figuring out how reconcile the various needs we all have for whatever API we end up with
22:16:48  <tjfontaine>yes
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22:33:04  <groundwater>tjfontaine: at 3 works for me
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22:33:21  <othiym23>3 on either day works fine for me
22:33:27  <tjfontaine>I mean, really I want it asap after 1 :)
22:33:42  <tjfontaine>so if you guys are cool I may stop by earlier and you can catch me up :P
22:33:43  <groundwater>tjfontaine you can come whenever
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22:35:43  <tjfontaine>I'd really like osx to GFI
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22:48:53  <trevnorris>i'm confused. what day are we talking about now?
22:50:11  <tjfontaine>when is the soonest you can make it up here?
22:51:56  <trevnorris>i'll be at paypal tomorrow. let me verify something for Wed. get back w/ you
22:57:46  <MI6>joyent/node: Timothy J Fontaine master * fc52ed8 : Merge remote-tracking branch 'upstream/v0.10' (+11 more commits) - http://git.io/X4OwBA
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23:14:28  <tjfontaine>hm
23:14:38  <tjfontaine>fuck you gyp.
23:15:29  <MI6>joyent/node: Alexis Campailla master * 2e3da9b : test: terminate gracefully in cluster-net-send - http://git.io/xk5m7g
23:15:34  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: ok. soonest i can is Thurs at 3 or Fri for lunch.
23:15:55  <groundwater>trevnorris tjfontaine good with me
23:15:58  <tjfontaine>thursday at 3 then
23:16:20  <trevnorris>at New Relic?
23:16:20  <othiym23>(o_o)-b
23:16:26  <othiym23>sure!
23:16:27  <tjfontaine>yes
23:16:30  <groundwater>can do!
23:16:37  <othiym23>I've been authorized to expense lunch, so maybe we can get coffee on NR's dime or something
23:16:45  <trevnorris>is there some secret combination or password I'll need to get in?
23:16:48  <trevnorris>heh, sounds good.
23:16:49  <othiym23>except we do have a staff barista
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23:17:46  <trevnorris>oh, and I hate driving home in traffic, so since i'm coming up in the afternoon I won't be leaving until later
23:17:53  <trevnorris>like, at least 7-ish
23:18:16  <othiym23>trevnorris: we'll try to remember to put you and TJ the access list for Thursday
23:18:26  <groundwater>trevnorris you're welcome to stay here until whenever
23:18:29  <othiym23>otherwise you can do what dshaw does when he comes over, and DM one of us on Twitter
23:18:30  <trevnorris>othiym23: cool.
23:18:42  <trevnorris>groundwater: thanks.
23:18:45  <trevnorris>heh
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23:38:39  <othiym23>tjfontaine, trevnorris: you guys should be on the building ACL at 3 on Thursday
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23:38:53  <trevnorris>coolio
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23:50:13  <tjfontaine>othiym23: thanks
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23:59:11  <tjfontaine>ya ya, I still ahve to figure out the 32bit toolchain on centos5.7 for our ancient glibc users