00:52:57  * DarkGodquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:51:50  <daurnimator>creationix: why not any of these? https://luarocks.org/search?q=jwt
05:05:40  * SkyRocknRolljoined
05:22:57  * rgrinbergquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
06:54:44  * rendarjoined
08:29:58  * CapsAdminjoined
08:32:34  * DarkGodjoined
08:53:24  * DarkGodquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
10:44:29  * SinisterRectusquit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
13:48:50  * SkyRocknRollquit (Remote host closed the connection)
15:36:06  * SinisterRectusjoined
18:53:16  * rendar_joined
18:55:53  * rendarquit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
18:58:30  <creationix>daurnimator for some reason I had assumed that I/O was involved
18:59:21  <creationix>oh well, wrote one last night anyway https://github.com/creationix/luvit-jwt
18:59:23  <creationix>Yorlik ^
18:59:39  <Yorlik>Hey !
18:59:58  <Yorlik>You just wrote it?
19:00:08  <creationix>yep, last night
19:00:13  <Yorlik>Cool!
19:00:22  <creationix>does't support verifying a token with a public key yet, but that's easy to add
19:00:22  <Yorlik>Great tool in the box.
19:00:43  <creationix>would you use rsa or hmac mode?
19:00:49  <Yorlik>I did something entirely different today
19:01:17  <Yorlik>Our modeler finished an airship
19:01:22  <creationix>oh neat
19:01:24  <Yorlik>And I'm texturing it
19:01:42  <creationix>what 3d tools? I've was a blender user in it's early days
19:01:55  <creationix>did some art with cinema4d back around 2000
19:02:44  <Yorlik>http://imgur.com/a/oudXw
19:02:51  <Yorlik>A fresh screenie
19:02:57  <Yorlik>Totally WiP
19:03:16  <creationix>neat
19:03:25  <Yorlik>I still have to learn a lot about making good textures
19:03:53  <Yorlik>Its a grungy kind of steampunkish-kinky-airpirate theme
19:04:00  <creationix>I can see that
19:04:35  <Yorlik>Basically these guys abduct real ships and turn them inti their airships
19:05:00  <creationix>mmo style game?
19:05:10  <Yorlik>We have been workingh on this since months - for both of us this is the most complex object we have ever made
19:05:30  <Yorlik>Its an indie game in development, I'm one of the early pledgers and admin users
19:05:40  <Yorlik>www.shardsonline.com
19:05:57  <Yorlik>They deswign the game from ground up to be fully moddable
19:06:05  <Yorlik>Scripting language is Lua
19:06:15  <Yorlik>You can import custom Dlls and C# assemplies
19:06:20  <creationix>oh neat
19:06:29  <Yorlik>Since the server is written in C# and the Lua Engine is based on NLua
19:06:43  <Yorlik>So I could import LuaSocket and all that jazz
19:06:58  <Yorlik>I'm just totally overload with work.
19:07:07  <Yorlik>I have a good coprogrammer though
19:07:11  <Yorlik>But still
19:07:32  <Yorlik>But since the platform offers so much freedom its great fun.
19:07:58  <Yorlik>Se we are running our own server and this ship will be onee of our custom assets
19:09:31  <creationix>ok, now I sortof understand what you were wanting luvit fow
19:09:33  <creationix>*for
19:09:50  <Yorlik>Luvit will be our centra data carousel
19:09:50  <creationix>let me know if I can ever help in area where my docs are lacking
19:10:21  <Yorlik>Cool ! This extar app is basically a side project in the moment, but it will become much more importantz onm the long run
19:10:50  <Yorlik>We want to use it to give players extra interaction, like writing in game books with a browser
19:10:57  <Yorlik>Or administering their in game shop
19:11:02  <Yorlik>Things like this
19:11:11  <creationix>neat
19:11:16  <Yorlik>Or give GMs tools to manipulate the world and run events
19:11:29  <Yorlik>Creating custom mobs
19:11:39  <Yorlik>The mobs are based on xml templates
19:12:02  <Yorlik>And the character and world database is sqlite
19:12:13  <Yorlik>So theres a lot of standard stuff we can use and extend in it
19:12:33  <Yorlik>The game is currently approaching steam early release
19:12:54  <Yorlik>Development stage officially is PreAlpha and soon Alpha
19:13:01  <Yorlik>Beta is next year
19:13:03  <creationix>If you end up using luvit I'll have to buy a copy to test it out
19:13:35  <Yorlik>We have decided to use luvit, because both of us don't really want to deal with JS
19:13:53  <Yorlik>And the principle is the same than node and a good data logistic
19:14:16  <Yorlik>Originally I had used LuaSQL to directly connect to PostGres
19:14:20  <Yorlik>It was super fast
19:14:47  <Yorlik>But I prefer a more centralized approach and something which will surely not block the clients
19:14:56  <creationix>technically, I believe luvit is a better platform than node. It's often faster, always uses much less ram and has awesome FFI and coroutines built in. But it is nothing in comparison if you care about popularity of maturity
19:15:16  <Yorlik>Luvit is a data integration platform for us where game data , web access and everything come together
19:15:21  <creationix>and lit is a lot more efficient than npm and creating proxy caching is trivially easy with lit
19:16:03  <Yorlik>I have one question - I hope it won't annoy you though:
19:16:13  <Yorlik>Where does all this bashing of node come from ?
19:16:32  <Yorlik>I have seen a lot of it, sometimes very funny, but after all node is fast and safe.
19:16:48  <Yorlik>I could never have pulled off the initial app without it
19:17:02  <Yorlik>Somehow it must have hit a weird nerve.
19:22:57  <SinisterRectus>there's no node bashing. luvit is an alternative, not a replacement.
19:23:15  <SinisterRectus>unless lua somehow became as popular as js
19:24:07  <Yorlik>No no - not from your side ...
19:24:08  <SinisterRectus>i respect node and js, but i don't use either because i think the benefits of lua outweigh the unpopularity, at least in my uses
19:25:07  <Yorlik>I'm asking about the weird critique from other sources.
19:25:43  * rgrinbergjoined
19:26:09  <Yorlik>For some strange reason, my impression is, the success of node and the speed in throughput it made possible irritated some people.
19:26:41  <Yorlik>Maybe it's just a normnal phenomenon if something just works too good.
19:26:56  <SinisterRectus>it does irritate me to an extent because i like to think that js is only popular because it is the language of the web
19:27:11  <SinisterRectus>while lua is a better choice performance-wise
19:27:49  <Yorlik>For web developers I can understand they want to stick with one language, sure.
19:28:05  <Yorlik>Actually thats one of the main reasons why we will switch to Luvit
19:28:12  <SinisterRectus>i've never heard a programmer who is not a web-dev say they like js, but maybe i haven't met enough
19:28:16  <Yorlik>Since we are coming from the Lua side
19:28:50  <SinisterRectus>although garry newman is an example of someone who switched from lua to js
19:29:15  <Yorlik>And google is backing it up with V8
19:29:29  <Yorlik>I wonder what would happen if Google invested in Lua
19:30:46  <SinisterRectus>well, v8 was made for chrome. it's not like they had a choice.
19:31:07  <SinisterRectus>unless they wanted to change the web 10-15 years after it started
19:31:17  <Yorlik>True
19:34:57  <creationix>Yorlik I'm one of the original node developers
19:35:20  <Yorlik>I know - you are Tim Caswell - thats why I asked you.
19:35:20  <creationix>it has a few weak points (the callback syntax for async I/O being one)
19:35:32  <creationix>what I think happened was
19:35:44  <Yorlik>The Spaghettiy code it can produce needs to be tamed, sure.
19:35:53  <creationix>that when node rose in popularity and got past the hype bubble, it was no longer new and hot
19:36:07  <creationix>in fast things that technically better in many ways came along (like Go)
19:36:11  <Yorlik>When I realized this I simply created a bunch of chained function in a cascade to keep overvirew
19:36:26  <creationix>so now that node is enterprise like Java used to be, many people are forced to use node
19:36:37  <creationix>many people who were used to statically typed languages and helpful IDEs
19:36:48  <creationix>and now they've been dumped on JavaScript + callback hell
19:37:12  <Yorlik>You need to lrearn to code using tons of callbacks or events, sure.
19:37:23  <creationix>I remember the day that we started getting complaints from people on the node list about how they simply can't stand the callback model
19:37:50  <Yorlik>My first language was ofc. BASIC in school. The Some 8080 assembler, Turbo Pascall, C++
19:37:52  <creationix>we told them "node isn't for everyone or every task. Don't use it if it's not a good fit" and the reply was "I have to use it for work, I don't even like JS"
19:38:14  <SinisterRectus>:/
19:38:56  <creationix>also it doesn't help that the new core team tends to downplay their problems
19:38:58  <Yorlik>Everyone wants "The one ring": "One ring to rule them all ...
19:39:13  <creationix>tell them they just need to learn JS properly and it will be easier
19:39:23  <creationix>(which is true, but it's still harder than it should be)
19:39:26  <Yorlik>Lua was very unusual for me when I started learning it a good year ago
19:40:02  <Yorlik>Funnily enough my olde Turbo Pascal studies helped me with it
19:40:10  <creationix>I learned lua and C when I started luvit about 5 years ago
19:40:45  <creationix>luvit isn't actually that much younger than node at this point. But it never grew in popularity for some reasons
19:41:08  <Yorlik>I think once you have the basics learning a language actually is no longer the issue - its more the tons of new functions in new libraries
19:41:20  <creationix>yep
19:41:32  <creationix>also lua is a particularly easy "langauge" to learn with a very fragmented community
19:41:54  <Yorlik>Buiulding the stuff around lua across platforms is a royal paion in the rear
19:41:57  <creationix>if you ask the creators they say it was never meant to be a platform, only an embedded vm/language
19:42:13  <creationix>the `lua` cli tool is labeled as a "sample implementation"
19:42:38  <Yorlik>When building libraries I'm juggling around VC, MinGW, Luarocks, MSYS ... Thats kinda annoying
19:43:01  <creationix>I try to clean that up with luvi, but in the end I think I just added yet another
19:43:05  <Yorlik>I know. Prograsmming in Lua does a great job ex├╝plaining the language
19:43:14  <Yorlik>Really good book.
19:43:21  <creationix>yep, I learned lua with PIL
19:43:34  <Yorlik>I also like The programming Gems
19:43:51  <creationix>havn't seen those
19:44:00  <Yorlik>I thjink what the Lua community needs is a really working center of gravity
19:44:19  <Yorlik>Luarocks is broken and so is a lot of other stuff around Lua
19:44:36  <creationix>That was the hope with luvit
19:44:39  <Yorlik>It's not really a well working cross platform scripting ecology
19:44:50  <Yorlik>Lua I mean - not talking about luvit
19:44:51  <creationix>modernize the package ecosystem and make code sharing and reuse easier
19:44:56  <SinisterRectus>i think luvit fixes all those problems
19:44:58  <creationix>tried to model on node's success
19:45:15  <creationix>luvit focuses heavily on portability
19:45:29  <Yorlik>On ANY platform you should be able to use the packag manager , issue your commands and have a working consistent environment
19:46:09  <Yorlik>Packages should pass some basic tests and if the truly work cross platform get a star for it or a cookie.
19:47:16  <Yorlik>Theres a ton of stuff that refuse to compile using Luarocks for example
19:48:04  <Yorlik>So - as an end user I'd wish from a ystem to either compile for my platform or have ready made working binaries available
19:48:51  <Yorlik>My impression is, some developers are either not interested in that or kinda expect from people to love their prodicst so much that they are willing to sp├╝end hours to get it compiled.
19:49:17  <Yorlik>And thats exactly what often gives free software a bad name
19:49:47  <Yorlik>And Microsoft can grinningly say: The TCO of windows is still better ...
19:50:45  <Yorlik>However .. getting carried away .. lol
20:24:17  <creationix>Yorlik so the idea with luvit is luvi contains all the parts written in C and everything else is portable lua on top of that
20:24:50  <Yorlik>Thats how I'm running my app while porting it
20:24:51  <creationix>I release luvi binaries for lots of platforms including crazy things like freebsd and raspberry PIs and even 64bit arm SOCs
20:25:17  <Yorlik>Please don't get me wrong - my ramblings weren't directed at luvit specifically.
20:25:22  <creationix>luajit has native ffi that allows you to dlopen and call native libraries if you want to
20:25:31  <creationix>Yorlik no worries
20:25:55  <creationix>and this was something node did right. We talked to Microsoft and told them we wanted proper windows support
20:26:19  <creationix>libuv was born out of that. It's not the best thing in the world or the leanest, but it's pretty good and quite portable on major desktop platforms
20:26:28  <creationix>the jquery of C
20:27:00  <creationix>we did not want to just tell people to use cygwin and send them to figure things for themselves
20:27:12  <creationix>most node users in the world currently develop on windows
20:27:14  <Yorlik>I think creating libuv was a great move
20:27:42  <creationix>libuv made creating luvit a lot easier too :)
20:28:21  <Yorlik>I had a weird compiling experience trying to compile luv for lua 52 32 bit
20:28:31  <Yorlik>It was veryx late and suddenly it worked.
20:28:43  <Yorlik>next day i coulodn't reproduce it no matter what
20:28:45  <creationix>yeah, the code should work, but buildsystems are another story
20:29:02  <creationix>I hate C build systems. I hope rust takes off. Cargo is a lot nicer
20:29:02  <Yorlik>I tried everytrhing to have a consistent build recipe
20:29:18  <Yorlik>but that build I produce at 4.00 a.m. is the only one I have now
20:29:31  <Yorlik>And I didn't manage to remember how I build it
20:29:46  <Yorlik>Digginjg deep in makefiles and stuff
20:30:01  <creationix>I'm not sure how I can help there either
20:30:47  <Yorlik>Once i have the nerves I'll retry - after all i can compile libuv and lua easily now.
20:31:04  <Yorlik>Shouldn't be too hard to manage it one day.
20:31:18  <creationix>one tech I'm excited for is midipix
20:31:27  <creationix>once that's stable I should be able to cross-compile static windows exes from linux
20:31:34  <Yorlik>Though I probably won't need it anymore, since I'm using copas on the gameservers lua script side now
20:31:50  <Yorlik>Never heared of that
20:32:22  <creationix>daurnimator told me about it. http://midipix.org/
20:33:43  <Yorlik>Ooh - that looks interesting.
20:33:58  <Yorlik>#Their philosophy makes a lot fo sense to my separating c from Posix
20:34:32  <Yorlik>Sry - my typing is horrible today ..
21:50:14  * rendar_quit (Quit: std::lower_bound + std::less_equal *works* with a vector without duplicates!)
22:20:15  * DarkGodjoined
23:20:01  * Xequit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:22:01  * Xejoined