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00:25:48  <drewery>should npm be included in the regular nodejs install?
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00:26:39  <kevireilly>drewery: yes, though it might depend on how you installed it. How did you install it?
00:26:47  <drewery>macports
00:26:59  <kevireilly>not sure about that one, but sometimes the issue is a path issue
00:27:00  <drewery>I uninstalled and re-installed
00:27:05  <hipsterslapfight>macports :(
00:27:06  <drewery>still command not found for npm
00:27:10  <kevireilly>why not use the real node.js isntaller?
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00:27:15  <hipsterslapfight>probably not included
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00:27:25  <hipsterslapfight>macports is pretty bad
00:27:31  <kevireilly>http://nodejs.org/dist/v0.10.33/node-v0.10.33.pkg
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00:28:03  <drewery>hmm... ok let me uninstall again and give this pkg a shot
00:28:05  <drewery>thanks
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00:28:22  <kevireilly>yarp
00:28:31  <qard-appneta>People still use macports?
00:28:37  <irc_smirk>haro
00:28:42  <drewery>one quick other question: how do you uninstall nodejs if you wanted to later on?
00:28:46  <gabeio>i don't homebrew :3
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00:29:09  <drewery>qard-appneta: uhmm... obviously... what do you use?
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00:29:21  <irc_smirk>drewery - try using it on docker
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00:29:22  <qard-appneta>homebrew on my mac.
00:29:25  <irc_smirk>nice and isolated
00:29:41  <qard-appneta>Though I install node with nvm.
00:29:46  <drewery>irc_smirk: I will take a look at it, thanks for the tip
00:29:52  <qard-appneta>Because I need to test against different versions.
00:29:54  <gabeio>nvm is beautiful!
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00:30:11  <qard-appneta>Yes, nvm is really nice.
00:30:38  <qard-appneta>It's also what travis ci uses for testing multiple node versions, so my dev box matches.
00:30:40  <gabeio>clean upgrade nice way to default node version
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00:31:05  <gabeio>beautiful handling of packages per node version
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00:37:44  <drewery>ok now I recall what the problem was with the installation pkg
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00:38:08  <drewery>on my system I always have to sudo both node and npm
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00:38:45  <drewery>else, without sudo, it will return command not found
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00:39:10  <drewery>which is what I am experiencing right now after running the setup package.
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00:43:52  <kevireilly>drewery: it is likely a path issue
00:44:00  <kevireilly>what does `echo $PATH` say?
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00:44:13  <kevireilly>versus `sudo echo $PATH`
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00:44:16  <drewery>I see the path in the $PATH variable
00:44:25  <drewery>I also can run the command with sudo
00:44:37  <zumba_addict>someone posted a blog in LinkedIn and title is Why use ExpressJS over NodeJS. This is not correct. Am I right?
00:44:38  <kevireilly>also? thought it only worked with sudo
00:44:41  <drewery>but without sudo the command is out of my scope hence not found message
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00:44:45  <drewery>like it is not exist
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00:45:01  <kevireilly>zumba_addict: express is built on node, so likely incorrect, yah
00:45:08  <drewery>I am sorry for the confusion: you are right it only works with sudo
00:45:09  <zumba_addict>yup, that's what I thought too
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00:45:32  <kevireilly>zumba_addict: perhaps they're referring to the express http server versus the vanilla native http module, though express is also built on that i believe
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00:45:36  <hipsterslapfight>unless it's really bad english and they mean "why you should use express on top of nodejs" :v
00:45:42  <zumba_addict>yeah, that's what i was aabout to ask
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00:45:45  <zumba_addict>thanks kevireilly :)
00:46:08  <zumba_addict>yes, you are also correct that express is a subset of the vanilla
00:46:12  <zumba_addict>i remember someone told me here
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00:46:31  <hipsterslapfight>subset of the vanilla?
00:46:38  <kevireilly>I feel like I've answered this exact question before, so it could have been me.. and i recognize your name haha
00:46:45  <zumba_addict>:D
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00:46:56  <Streemo>does anyone have any good examples of web apps built entirely with node.js? Not just using node.js for specific parts of the app, but the ENTIRE app.
00:47:18  <drewery>kevireilly: the $PATH has /usr/local/bin
00:47:18  <zumba_addict>maybe subset is the wrong term I used hipsterslapfight
00:47:32  <hipsterslapfight>Streemo: what, like no other js and no css or html?
00:47:33  <drewery>so I am quadriple sure that it is there
00:47:34  <hipsterslapfight>sounds stupid
00:47:40  <kevireilly>drewery: I'm not sure if that is the one, but I also don't have my OSX reference presently
00:47:47  <LouisT>Streemo: what? that's impossible
00:47:50  <Streemo>hipsterslapfight why would you interpret it that way?
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00:48:00  <Streemo>sigh.
00:48:03  <LouisT>Streemo: because that's the way you said it
00:48:08  <hipsterslapfight>^^^
00:48:09  <Streemo>pragmatics, people?
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00:48:23  <Streemo>alright the next least ridiculous conclusion.
00:48:26  <LouisT>you can't make a web app with just node.js, it wouldn't look like anything
00:48:35  <drewery>kevireilly: thats fine, I looked up which npm and node and yes that is the path
00:48:41  <Streemo>why do you need to be a smart alec?
00:48:42  <hipsterslapfight>LouisT: sure you could, it'd be a whole load of work though
00:48:43  <qard-appneta>browserify begs to differ.
00:48:44  <LouisT>anyway, i'm sure there are many many things written with just node.js
00:48:48  <hipsterslapfight>css in node.js :(
00:48:53  <kevireilly>drewery: that is strange.. oh, open a new terminal window and try again
00:49:02  <Streemo>anyways...
00:49:15  <LouisT>Streemo: i'm sure it'd be easier if you specified what type of app
00:49:21  <zumba_addict>here it is kevireilly - http://www.algoworks.com/blog/why-use-expressjs-over-nodejs-for-server-side-coding/
00:49:50  <Streemo>when i say only with node.js i mean using node for almost everything (of course not for a database and css and html...)
00:49:50  <drewery>and it is in the $PATH variable however I am suspecting there is a security feature with yosemite may be with bin because I had issues with sublime text trying to alias subl command which also resides under bin directory
00:49:58  <LouisT>express.js over node.js... wwhhhaaaa? doesn't express.js run in node.js?
00:49:59  <hipsterslapfight>that's a very silly clickbait article zumba_addict
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00:50:07  <Streemo>LouisT well thats part of my question
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00:50:11  <zumba_addict>what is clickbait?
00:50:15  <Streemo>any app really
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00:50:19  <hipsterslapfight>Streemo: then yes there's many apps like that
00:50:30  <LouisT>Streemo: yes, there are many things like IRC clients and whatnot
00:50:30  <Streemo>im looking for examples of high traffic web apps written using node as a main resource.
00:50:35  <LouisT>look at http://kiwiirc.com/
00:50:36  <zumba_addict>hipsterslapfight: you mean there is a malware on that link I sent?
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00:50:38  <LouisT>that's written with node.js
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00:50:55  <hipsterslapfight>zumba_addict: no, it's an article written purely to get clicks, with no real content
00:51:00  <hipsterslapfight>simply as a platform to serve ads
00:51:06  <zumba_addict>oh
00:51:11  <hipsterslapfight>LouisT: look at paypal, walmart et al
00:51:12  <zumba_addict>why would they do that?>
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00:51:20  <hipsterslapfight>ads, as i said
00:51:29  <LouisT>hipsterslapfight: yyeeaaa but they use node in the backend, i don't think they have any front facing services
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00:51:44  <LouisT>it'd all be behind proxies i assume like nginx or w/e
00:51:50  <zumba_addict>I don't see the paypal, walmart links
00:51:59  <hipsterslapfight>why wouldn't you put node behind nginx LouisT?
00:52:09  <hipsterslapfight>it's not like you're writing the system kernel in node too
00:52:13  <hipsterslapfight>gotta draw that line somewhere
00:52:18  <LouisT>because he asked about node.js specific
00:52:23  <LouisT>not node behind proxies
00:52:30  <qard-appneta>There's not really many major apps written in ANY one particular language/framework.
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00:52:47  <kevireilly>drewery: tried a new terminal window?
00:52:55  <qard-appneta>Use it for what it's good for. Use something else for what it's not good for.
00:53:06  <hipsterslapfight>LouisT: so he (they) asked a stupid question then
00:53:13  <LouisT>not really
00:53:20  <LouisT>i run a few node.js processes without a proxy
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00:53:26  <LouisT>because they're not needed
00:53:30  <Streemo>qard-appneta what you say manages to get no real content accross.
00:53:34  <drewery>yes, hoping that it sources whatever it needs to be sourced right? but still the same after quitting even I restarted before node setup
00:53:37  <hipsterslapfight>did you write the kernel for the OS in nodejs too?
00:53:48  <LouisT>no, why would i need to? he asked about web apps
00:54:03  <hipsterslapfight>they've gotta sit somewhere
00:54:20  <Streemo>hipster why would you interpret it that way? thats a bit overboard.
00:54:23  <LouisT>your point? he didn't ask about what system they sit on, he asked about what framework they run in
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00:54:44  <drewery>kevireilly: I am almost positive I have some system setting issue, may be inherited from beta tests of the os
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00:54:55  <LouisT>if you're wanting to run it system level, use node-os
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00:55:52  <Streemo>LouisT do you have examples other than IRC?
00:56:08  <LouisT>Streemo: not off the top of my head, but i know there are some
00:56:31  <qard-appneta>My point is that most actually BIG web apps are composed of more than one language, so expecting to find a big web app that is made entirely in node is a bit unreasonable.
00:56:45  <Streemo>I know walmart/ paypal use nodejs but its not the main force behind their web apps.
00:56:53  <zumba_addict>and am I right folks, what ExpressJS won't run without NodeJS
00:56:58  <zumba_addict>what/that
00:57:15  <zumba_addict>because it's a framework that requires NodeJS
00:58:00  <qard-appneta>Walmart and Paypal are both mostly using node as glue between modern web/mobile and old, clunky, enterprise-y databases or internal APIs.
00:58:01  <LouisT>Streemo: kiwiirc is the only "major" app that i really pay attention to as i've done a bit of stuff for it
00:58:06  <Streemo>qard-appneta, I understand that - but i just need an example that 'mainly' runs with node. of course if i limit my query to All/Nothing there won't be any examples to give. That's understood.
00:58:32  <qard-appneta>In both cases, as far as I'm aware, node DOES serve to the outside web.
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00:58:49  <kevireilly>drewery: odd. Guess you could try nvm also which should work
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00:59:28  <Streemo>LouisT alright. thanks for that example
00:59:41  <zumba_addict>how would NodeJS perform for data collection?
00:59:44  <qard-appneta>I wouldn't even expect to find many apps "mainly" written in node.
00:59:56  <zumba_addict>currently, we are using Java to collect data from different apis
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01:00:14  <drewery>kevireilly: yes odd, even I see it in the path I added the path for node to the bash profile and still no luck at this point I am sure I have to review the system so, I will find out, very curious right now
01:00:22  <qard-appneta>It might be reasonably capable, but too new for anything really big and established to use it to a huge extent yet.
01:00:40  <Streemo>qard-appneta alright that is a more helpful response than what you said earlier , thank you.
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01:00:59  <LouisT>Streemo: i know there are some blogging software, like ghost, that i'd consider to be "major" in the sense that it can serve lots of people depending on the blog
01:01:17  <qard-appneta>It's used a lot as glue between different services.
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01:01:29  <LouisT>https://github.com/tryghost/Ghost
01:01:32  <Streemo>the point i asked the question was to see if node could compete with things like rails for building high grade web apps
01:01:34  <kevireilly>drewery: not sure, if it is in the path, it should work.. try the path with the command on the end
01:01:37  <qard-appneta>Some startups are even getting established as primarily node-based apps.
01:01:43  <prawnsalad>countly is a large-ish app in nodejs, data collection
01:01:46  <Streemo>via frameowkrs on node
01:01:47  <qard-appneta>Especially mobile gaming companies.
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01:02:42  <qard-appneta>There are several that use node a lot to handle all the realtime stuff.
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01:03:46  <qard-appneta>The biggest thing I'm aware of that comes close to being "mainly" written in node is EA Origin. The backend is all node. I believe the frontend was a node-webkit app also, but that may have changed since I last heard from them.
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01:03:53  <drewery>kevireilly: good call, indirectly led to the problem which I didn't think would be the issue
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01:04:12  <kevireilly>drewery: ah excellent, glad you got it figured
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01:06:01  <drewery>kevireilly: yeah but I have no idea how the user for that directory has changed, I am guessing this is herited from the beta phase... I have to do a clean install of the stable package anyways since I have all the crumbles from the development phase exist against all the updates (obviously)
01:06:11  <drewery>kevireilly: thanks for all the input and help!
01:06:16  <qard-appneta>Origin is mainly just the store-front API part though. The account system was some existing Java thing.
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01:07:04  <kevireilly>drewery: strange indeed, happy to help
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01:33:11  <MrWebington>Hi, #mongodb is quite atm so I'll try here :)
01:33:15  <MrWebington>"I'm trying to connect to my remove MongoDB server hosted on Linode via Robomongo. Problem is I think I need to authenticate and I never remember setting an admin user or a password :/"
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02:27:34  <noname>hello
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02:44:54  <jondavidjohn>Hey yall, I'd like to get some feedback on this -> https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/8520
02:45:32  <jondavidjohn>I have a PR in to take care of the immediate issue in a way I think makes sense, but I'm having a hard time garnering feedback from core devs on if this is a good approach or not.
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03:05:37  <mebibyte>Hello, I'm making a Node.js website, and I'm trying to use an mp3 audio source, but I'm getting a 404 on the server, even though the file is in the folder on my end. I try to access the URL for the mp3 and it says cannot GET. Any ideas? Thanks!
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03:08:15  <Aria>How are you serving up that folder?
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03:08:29  <Aria>node.js doesn't automatically map URLs to folders -- that often has to be added
03:09:05  <mebibyte>I'm not sure. How would I add that? I only have app.get('/', ... giving me the index. Can I do an entire folder?
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03:09:50  <mebibyte>I have a music folder in the same directory as my index, with multiple mp3s in the music folder.
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03:11:25  <opus_>if I push something undefined by mistake, how can I make it safely fail and just not insert a push?
03:11:31  <opus_>in an array
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03:18:25  <mebibyte>Can I make it send all the mp3 files in a directory? Or do I need to make a separate get(
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03:24:05  <mebibyte>How do I send an mp3 file? I'm still getting cannot GET even though I add the app.get for it and use sendFile.
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03:32:24  <phongdaohp>:(
03:32:32  <phongdaohp>nodejs
03:32:54  <phongdaohp>it is difficult to understand
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03:33:21  <opus_>let me know if you need help!
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03:34:15  <phongdaohp>@pous_ thanks
03:34:36  <irc_smirk>i highly recommend everyone here to check out docker
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03:34:47  <phongdaohp>when I read api document
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03:35:58  <phongdaohp>it really is not detailed
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03:36:30  <mebibyte>Figured it out.
03:36:30  <opus_>phongdaohp, i think because they assume you have a strong background in javascript. is there something specific you do not think that is detailed?
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03:38:21  <nyanz>sometimes i find it hard because some things take you to first understand how buffers and streams and things like that work but i dont get the proper order or the list of things to know first
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03:39:15  <phongdaohp>Each API, It's should show useful for what
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03:40:36  <phongdaohp>sometime, I don't know what in case I can use it
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03:40:58  <nyanz>but that may be the result of trying to skip things in the documentation and not reading it all properly
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03:46:02  <nyanz>because i sometimes tend to skip things i think i may not need
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03:47:51  <opus_>Strange, how come when I add 0 + 5.85 I get 17.549999999997?
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03:53:56  <opus_>does var asdf += float ; not work on floats?
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03:56:44  <nyanz>some apis docs are the basis of understanding others like events, streams and buffer but as i say i find no proper order on how to read them maybe its good to put them under a fundamentals section or something like that
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04:05:32  <Streemo>irc_smirk why?
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04:06:19  <irc_smirk>why what
04:06:24  <Streemo>docker
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04:06:35  <irc_smirk>have you looked at it
04:06:45  <lpghatguy>the lack of multiple line quotes is beginning to bother me, bleh
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04:07:06  <Streemo>phongdaohp nyanz nodeschool.io is really good for buffers and streams practice
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04:09:59  <Streemo>irc_smirk looks interesting
04:10:14  <nyanz>thanks Streemo ill try it i have tried some other sites and tutorials because starting to learn by reading the api docs i find a bit hard because of what i said
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04:10:41  <Streemo>nyanz check out Node JS The right way
04:10:58  <Streemo>its a short book that does a good job at showing what node is capable of
04:11:32  <Streemo>nyanz check out Node Beginner Book. its a very short book which consists of a tutorial on writing a basic web server, using hte author's conventions.
04:11:47  <XCVB>Can somebody test my HTML5 multiplayer game: http://uxkke71871db.x13machine.koding.io:4004/
04:12:00  <nyanz>ok Streemo thanks
04:12:32  <Streemo>nyanz i would highly recommend doing all of the core nodeschool.io workshops (4 of them) and most of the elective workshops (perhaps 20 of them or so)
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04:13:27  <Streemo>nyanz most of them are not too difficult, but a few workshops have exercises that will really make you think
04:13:47  <Havvy>XCVB: It seems to be working, but can you center the player on the screen?
04:13:49  <Streemo>nyanz a lot of them are trivial exercises that simply show you what can be done. very good resource id say
04:13:56  <Streemo>no problem
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04:14:04  <nyanz>aah its the learnyounode program i did one of them i was nice
04:14:09  <nyanz>it*
04:14:16  <Streemo>do streams-adventure
04:14:19  <Streemo>and the buffer one
04:14:21  <XCVB>Havvy: That's a good idea
04:16:35  <Streemo>XCVB nice game i tried it out
04:16:56  <nyanz>that one i havent done ill try
04:16:57  <lpghatguy>is this a bad idea? http://i.imgur.com/8PIWbUq.png
04:17:05  <XCVB>Streemo: where you qqqqqq
04:17:35  <Streemo>yeah i was owning some noob
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04:17:39  <irc_smirk>streemo - docker has been a great way for me to play with stuff built in node js that i wouldnt otherwise wanted to install
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04:18:06  <Streemo>lpghatguy cant you do that stuff in ES6
04:18:20  <Streemo>really easily
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04:18:32  <lpghatguy>yeah, but there isn't any ES6 backstick string support in V8 in node yet
04:18:48  <lpghatguy>not enabled unless you use chrome canary and set the experimental JS support flag
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04:21:12  <Streemo>irc_smirk so you get code from github and run it via docker without having to deal with your own system
04:21:24  <Streemo>100% detached?/
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04:46:47  <NinjaBanjo>does anyone know of a maintained node irc library
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04:47:23  <NinjaBanjo>or a mostly-baked out one. I am currnetly using the martynsmith one
04:47:54  <Havvy>!npm Tennu
04:48:01  <Havvy>!npm tennu
04:48:02  <npmbot>Havvy: tennu (0.9.2) - Tennu - Modular IRC Bot Framework for Node.js -> https://npmjs.org/package/tennu
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04:48:27  <NinjaBanjo>Havvy, cool, I'll take a look at their implimentation. I'm building my own modular bot.
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04:48:30  <NinjaBanjo>from scratch
04:48:31  <Havvy>Their = Mine
04:48:35  <NinjaBanjo>oh
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04:48:48  <NinjaBanjo>cool, mind if I rip some code? will attribute
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04:49:14  <Havvy>It's ISC licensed. If you rip code, you are required by copyright to attribute.
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04:49:31  <NinjaBanjo>yes, of course
04:49:39  <Havvy>Also, the parts that are rippable I generally put in their own packages.
04:49:42  <Havvy>E.g. ...
04:49:45  <Havvy>!npm irc-socket
04:49:45  <npmbot>Havvy: irc-socket (2.2.2) - Simple IRC Socket for usage with IRC libraries. -> https://npmjs.org/package/irc-socket
04:49:51  <Havvy>!npm tennu-plugins
04:49:52  <npmbot>Havvy: tennu-plugins (3.1.0) - Tennu plugin subsystem -> https://npmjs.org/package/tennu-plugins
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04:50:52  <Havvy>If you see anything you want packaged separately, and it makes sense for it to be separate, I can spin up a new package pretty quickly.
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04:51:58  <Havvy>Contributions are better though. ;)
04:52:48  <Havvy>E.g., I'd love to see an implementation of the `channel` and `user` plugins, but I keep putting it off myself because I hate dealing with stateful stuff.
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05:17:25  <opus_>is there a quick way to add a unique id to a json object, so that i can remove the entire row later?
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05:18:48  <Aria>Remove from what?
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05:19:12  <opus_>Remove a item from an array, denoted by a uniqueid generated when i push it
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05:19:45  <Aria>Like crypto.getRandomBytes(16, function (err, data) { obj.uniqid = data.toString('hex') }) ?
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05:20:03  <Aria>I don't know that you need anything fancy.
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05:20:10  <opus_>var unique = new Date().getTime();
05:20:13  <opus_>thats my uniqueid
05:20:21  <opus_>then later on I want to go "crap, I gotta delete that id
05:20:32  <opus_>and the items assoicated with it
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05:21:07  <Aria>array.splice(array.indexOf(array.filter(function (e) { return e.uniqid == theone })), 1) ?
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05:21:24  <opus_>oh cool, yeah, that might work
05:21:41  <opus_>why didn't I think about that? I guess I never use .filter
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05:22:03  <Aria>Not the fastest -- that's like O(4N), but might just do you
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05:26:09  <n^izzo>tets
05:26:37  <opus_>yes, tets. tets rule
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05:27:46  <n^izzo>thanks opus_
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05:33:17  <opus_>Aria, hmm. that works except it keeps the uniqueid
05:33:30  <opus_>but the subarray is gone
05:33:31  <Aria>add it as non-enumerable?
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05:36:01  <opus_>can you give me a hint to what exactly that means?
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05:38:36  <opus_>ahh, figured it out
05:38:56  <opus_>my array was flat
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05:44:51  <lpghatguy>Are results from node.js's require cached across calls?
05:45:03  <Wraithan>lpghatguy: yes
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05:46:29  <Wraithan>lpghatguy: that means any globals in a module are shared across all of the requires of it.
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05:46:57  <lpghatguy>Wraithan, that's a good thing
05:46:59  <lpghatguy>thanks
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05:47:28  <Wraithan>lpghatguy: http://nodejs.org/api/globals.html#globals_require_cache
05:47:32  <Wraithan>lpghatguy: if you are curious where it is stored
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05:48:57  <rhalff>who wants a star on github? I need to get past 666 :-)
05:49:13  <lpghatguy>I do!
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05:50:37  <lpghatguy>why would you want to get past 666
05:50:53  <lpghatguy>it's the last iconic number before 1000, and that's a lot of repos
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05:51:07  <Wraithan>lpghatguy: 777 is held as iconic by some people
05:51:11  <Wraithan>so there ya go
05:51:12  <lpghatguy>fair enough
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05:51:27  <lpghatguy>I like to keep my star list trimmed so it means something
05:52:30  <Wraithan>I don't use github's social features, I occasionally star or watch things but mostly as an afterthought, I haven't found it particularly useful
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05:53:33  <rhalff>I sometimes use it, mostly if I know I recently starred it, but yeah most of the time I'll never look back.
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05:54:03  <lpghatguy>then all my stars I've earned feel less meaningful, lol
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05:54:25  <lpghatguy>I trim my stars, friends on social networks, etc.
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05:58:43  <rhalff>hmz, 666 is crawler.js just before guide.
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06:27:11  <opus_>what do you guys think of this code ? http://pastebin.com/YvDEJh6q
06:27:25  * Jarboequit
06:27:40  <opus_>its part of a angular js service factory
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06:29:07  <sinclair>opus_: i think you are in the wrong channel
06:29:23  <sinclair>that's what i think
06:29:25  <opus_>well, in the context of JSON manipulation
06:29:50  <sinclair>opus_: https://www.npmjs.org/package/pang
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06:30:31  <opus_>awww, cool, i might use that for my jasmine-cli spec
06:30:45  <sinclair>feel free
06:31:11  <opus_>yeah, so I prototype the factory 100% in node cli and cut and paste working tid bits into sublime + added to my jasmine cases
06:31:24  <opus_>which i think is cool. also some help from you guys :)
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06:32:17  <opus_>anyway, I was just wondering if that would be the best approach, or if there is a npm module that does all these things for me and I just re-invented the wheel
06:32:36  <opus_>(the code)
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06:34:01  <sinclair>opus_: no idea
06:34:33  <opus_>well, thanks for the idea about pang
06:35:14  <sinclair>opus_: i happen to find angular's DI quite agreeable
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06:35:36  <ningu>so I've been learning Go. it seems to have an interesting distributed packaging system... but I was kind of shocked to discover that there is absolutely NO versioning.
06:36:01  <sinclair>ningu: why on earth would you bother with Go?
06:36:14  <ningu>(1) docker, (2) why not?
06:36:26  <opus_>yeah, I tried to fix a simple bug in docker that is written in Go and threw my hands up, I didn't have time to deal with it. one day maybe i'll learn it one day
06:36:36  * sinclairsenses a impending rust vs go war
06:37:06  <sinclair>ningu: its just that everytime i hear someone say they are moving to Go, they are following the likes of TJ
06:37:24  <ningu>what is TJ doing?
06:37:29  <ningu>with Go, that is
06:37:51  <sinclair>ningu: don't know, don't care....tho i would suspect "concurrency things"
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06:38:18  <sinclair>ningu: i specifically moved to Rust to be away from the TJ followers
06:38:32  <ningu>well, I haven't noticed any evidence of TJ in the Go community
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06:39:00  <sinclair>ningu: what Go community ??
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06:39:10  <ningu>#go-nuts for example
06:39:14  <ningu>or mailing lists
06:39:17  <ningu>or stack overflow
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06:39:50  <sinclair>ningu: yeah, much prefer Rust i must say
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06:40:06  <ningu>I haven't looked at Rust yet
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06:40:45  <sinclair>you should, the rust community is getting quite large and good now
06:40:56  <sinclair>and the language is pretty slick
06:41:10  <opus_>is rust pretty good?
06:41:21  <sinclair>especially if you are into writing highly efficient, safe concurrent systems
06:41:56  <opus_>i spent years writing real time systems with pthread
06:42:08  <ningu>sounds painful
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06:42:33  <sinclair>opus_: yay C
06:42:35  <opus_>yeah, eventually i went insane and got rid of all electronics and drove to alaska for three months
06:42:36  <sinclair><_<
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06:42:48  <opus_>seriously did
06:42:59  * nonksquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
06:43:01  <sinclair>opus_: was it network programming?
06:43:15  * sinclairwonders how many network programmers end up going crazy
06:43:28  * sinclairdoes network programming for a living
06:43:42  <opus_>integrating spidermonkey into asterisk voip for 1000+ curcurrent call IVR/call routing systems
06:44:02  * miqlquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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06:44:26  <sinclair>opus_: integrating a web rendering enging into a voip system?
06:44:47  <opus_>no just the javascript scripting engine. to do IVR in javascript
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06:45:43  <opus_>querying sql servers and a huge .net agent call center solution
06:45:56  <opus_>that i single handly wrote. fuck i hated that shit
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06:45:59  <sinclair>opus_: was it MS CRM?
06:46:10  <opus_>all one off shit.
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06:46:46  <opus_>i got so sick of development I missed the whole node.js and mobile revolution
06:47:03  <sinclair>opus_: you didn't miss anything
06:47:12  <arg>Hi, new to node and web development. Needs to develop authentication module like needs to store username and password on server. Any inputs?
06:47:12  <opus_>node.js JUST came out when I left
06:47:41  <opus_>and I was like "damn it, I spent all this time writing custom spidermonkey integration and these guys figured it all out"
06:48:03  <sinclair>opus_: integration V8 isn't that hard
06:48:08  <sinclair>*intergrating
06:48:24  <ningu>arg: use passportjs?
06:48:43  <opus_>V8 didn't exist when I was doing this
06:48:48  <arg>Is it industry statndard
06:48:51  <sinclair>opus_: tho, i remember the efforts of developers looking to intergrate js scripting engines into things
06:48:59  <opus_>or it did, but just came out or something. this was 2005
06:49:02  <arg>@ningu: Is it industry statndard?
06:49:18  <sinclair>arg: nothing in node js "industry standard"
06:49:39  <sinclair>well, maybe the crypto stuff
06:49:48  <opus_>one thing. it appears anybody can write a backdoor in to a npm module. doesn't that concern anyone?
06:50:02  <ningu>arg: there isn't really an industry standard but sure, it's commonly used
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06:50:15  <sinclair>opus_: yes, it does concern people, me especially
06:50:31  <sinclair>opus_: i mostly write my own node modules from scratch because of that concern
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06:50:49  <ningu>opus_: how is that different from any other language?
06:50:55  <sinclair>opus_: i make exception with a few things, namely express and socket.io
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06:51:17  <arg>@ningu, @sinclair: Thank you.
06:51:32  <ljharb>opus_: nobody forces you to update a module. the one you select is always the version you'll install
06:51:40  * gratimaxchanged nick to gratimax|away
06:51:58  <arg>Next, Are there any video tutorials for Node.js like Mongodb courses for free.
06:52:02  <ljharb>opus_: you shouldn't use a module whose code you haven't audited, so if somebody writes a backdoor, it's on you (and the community) to figure out trust and reliability
06:52:06  <opus_>ningu, the popularity of node and where it gets installed, i would say its exposure level vs security threat is a concern
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06:52:10  <sinclair>ljharb: how can you be sure the module you depend on isn't referencing another module of another module which is non trusted ?
06:52:28  <ljharb>sinclair: obviously as part of your audit you look at package.json
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06:52:41  <ljharb>the fact that you don't *have* to audit things doesn't mean things are insecure.
06:52:44  <ningu>I agree with ljharb. this is a bogus issue, or rather, it's a real issue but node is no different from anything else
06:52:49  * gratimax|awaychanged nick to gratimax
06:52:58  <sinclair>ljharb: not that obvious, the other issue is that you cannot sandbox non trusted code
06:53:01  <ljharb>you are fully capable of fully auditing everything. if you get to something whose code you can't audit, obviously you can't trust anything that depends on it.
06:53:05  <ljharb>sure oyu can.
06:53:09  <ljharb>node has a vm module
06:53:13  <ljharb>you can sandbox anything you like. trivially.
06:53:18  <ljharb>there is NO security issue here.
06:53:25  <sinclair>ljharb: if you say so
06:53:38  <ningu>sinclair: that is not an argument
06:53:40  <opus_>sure, throw it in a docker with no networking and use unix sockets
06:53:45  <opus_>docklet
06:53:48  <ljharb>i'm sure most people *don't* actually audit everything. or use a vm, or whatever.
06:54:07  <ljharb>but if you choose to do so, a "random node module" is the most secure thing you can find - because you can see all the code.
06:54:18  <sinclair>ningu: im not arguing, ljharb is (as usual), which is unfortunate, as someone gave him ops
06:54:19  <ljharb>and because one can't force publish anymore, you know what you've installed will be the same forever.
06:54:28  <ljharb>what does ops have to do with it
06:54:41  <ljharb>i enforce the code of conduct, but nothing in the code of conduct says you have to agree with me
06:54:50  <ljharb>argue all you like, respectfully. as will i.
06:54:52  * jakecraigequit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:54:53  <sinclair>ljharb: i can't be bothered talking to you, i never could be bothered talking to you, so please stop talking to me...ok?
06:55:06  <ljharb>sinclair: you're welcome to ignore me, but if you don't wish to be spoken to, you're welcome to leave.
06:55:28  <sinclair>ljharb: yes, since someone decided to op you, i have been considering it yes
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06:55:33  <ljharb>and if you scroll up, you spoke to me, so please don't initiate a conversation and then ask me to stop talking to you.
06:56:00  <ljharb>of course, i'll respect your wishes, and won't address you directly unless i'm responding to a public comment.
06:56:14  <sinclair>now if you will excuse me, i am busy trying to get something out of my tooth
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06:57:40  <opus_>why would I want to use rust?
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06:57:46  <arg>Are there any video tutorials for Node.js like Mongodb courses for free.
06:58:08  <sinclair>opus_: rust has a focus on writing safe concurrent systems
06:58:47  <opus_>sure, like, give me a few examples of what you think would be a could problem it would solve?
06:58:49  <sinclair>opus_: its native, interops with C, and compiler safe errors on concurrency problems, and has a strong focus on "ownership" of resources
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06:59:59  <sinclair>the language gives you a set of primitives that the compiler analyzes to fish out resource contention issues (and prevents the need for things like locking),
07:00:14  <sinclair>tho, if you want to ignore all that and do something fancy, you can
07:00:57  <sinclair>opus_: if you have a background in developing native applications (and it sounds like you do) i would strongly recommend rust to you
07:01:38  <sinclair>especially if you work in network development, or any environment where concurrency was a concern
07:02:07  <sinclair>opus, im looking at Rust atm as a language to develop network drivers in
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07:02:27  <admiraljsdotcom>hi all nodejs users
07:02:31  <opus_>well, one paradigm shift I see is that most of all new apps are moving the business logic and code to the browser ( or mobile) and the backend is just a dumb down key/value storage HA server array. Which that key/value cluster would be measured in performance, probably TPS.
07:02:52  <opus_>and the biggest issue I see scaling up a huge server farm key/value system would be TPS/watt
07:03:25  <ningu>TPS?
07:03:27  * robeypart ("Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com")
07:03:32  <admiraljsdotcom>i just posted a video demo of my auto generated admin for node/mongo or sailsjs : on http://www.admiraljs.com . Please share and give feedback !
07:03:40  <opus_>transactions per second
07:03:43  <sinclair>opus_: i don't see that at all really, well, maybe i do
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07:04:12  <ningu>and HA server array = HAProxy?
07:04:22  <sinclair>opus_: you can get fast throughput with mongo, and sharded writes across multiple stores if your write throughput is that much
07:04:25  <ningu>or high availability?
07:04:33  <opus_>all server farms come down to watts per square foot per TPS
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07:05:18  <opus_>and if you can tweek your code, or use rust or go or whatever, even to get a 1-2% speedup, that'd reduce wattage/heat
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07:06:31  <sinclair>opus_: ever looked at app engine at all?
07:06:35  <opus_>i have a friend who works at a large $1B social media company, and they are stuck in 2005 era Java land where all the logic is on the server and they measure their TPS per server at about 5-10
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07:06:48  <opus_>10 transactions per second per server!!!
07:07:06  <sinclair>opus_: actually transactions or writes ?
07:07:14  <opus_>heavy transactions
07:07:25  <opus_>he works at jive software
07:07:28  <sinclair>opus_: multiple write transactions then?
07:07:44  <opus_>yeah multiple heavy writes, reads, lookups, etc
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07:08:07  <opus_>and a hadoop cluster for searching
07:08:13  <sinclair>opus_: the best thing in terms of good datastore throughput would be what i have seen appengine do
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07:09:09  <opus_>their server budget is INSANE
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07:09:42  <opus_>I told them I could get their TPS up to atleast 10,000 per server if we moved the business logic to the browser and just had a dumb down datastore cluster. Of course I was laughed at.
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07:10:05  <sinclair>opus_: it is, but the app engine datastore is actually a really good example of how a data store should look and function when you want massive throughput
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07:10:29  <opus_>nice, I haven't evaluated app engine (recently, I did a few years ago before they jacked up their prices)
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07:11:37  <sinclair>opus_: i dont think its changed much in terms of datastore
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07:11:50  <sinclair>tho, i think they offer mysql backends ow
07:11:51  <sinclair>*now
07:11:56  <opus_>basically, I don't like java. Reminds me of the dotcom days
07:12:28  <sinclair>opus_: one thing about their datastore is that it does force the developer to think hard about how they want their data to look, and how they want it queried
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07:13:08  <sinclair>in fact, rather than modelling data in a "sane way", you often end up modelling your data in a "query thinking first" manner
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07:14:35  <sinclair>opus_: i think the biggest issue i ran into with appengines datastore was that, while it was amaze balls at write throughput, it was pretty bad at arbitrary data projection, so much so, it made it a pretty bad call for most solutions
07:14:53  <sinclair>opus_: you say that you see more business logic pushed to the browser now?
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07:15:35  <opus_>yeah the angular/meteor approach
07:15:36  <lpghatguy>sinclair, just based on that last message, absolutely!
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07:16:27  <opus_>i can write almost 90% of my app in angular, and include npm modules so i have almost 90% of the node module base. Then when I need to save/query/delete, I contact a datastore.
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07:16:47  <opus_>parse.com/firebase and others like 5app see this happening and are capitalizing on it
07:16:58  * jakecraigequit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
07:17:11  <opus_>hell, I even thought of rolling my own to compete with them. Maybe I'd write it in Rust? :)
07:18:05  <opus_>I would optimize it in terms of TPS per watt though
07:18:45  <opus_>Java probably has the worst CPU/watt usage in the history of man kind. I'm sure its causing global warming.
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07:19:08  <sinclair>lpghatguy: hmm?
07:19:22  <sinclair>opus_: heh
07:19:35  <lpghatguy>The future of the web is a bunch of REST APIs with clients acting as thin presentation layers
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07:20:00  <sinclair>lpghatguy: how is that the future? its been around for years
07:20:15  <sinclair>decades even
07:20:25  <opus_>Yeah its finally mainstream now though
07:20:45  <lpghatguy>because a majority of frameworks still don't implement that idea
07:20:54  <sinclair>opus_: i thought it was pretty mainstream at least as far back as 07 (that i remember)
07:20:57  <opus_>but at one point EVERYONE was writing these huge 100mb java applets "thin clients" in the early 2000s thinking it would be the future.
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07:21:11  <lpghatguy>JavaScript has only been good enough in the past while to do it _well_
07:21:45  <sinclair>lpghatguy: ajax has been around for 15+ years, browsers even longer
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07:22:10  <lpghatguy>it certainly hasn't been the norm until the past few years
07:22:12  <opus_>I actually wrote some Ecmascript 3 thin client code back in the early 2000s with XMLHttpRequest and stuff
07:22:28  <sinclair>lpghatguy: ajax was gaining dominance in 04
07:22:39  <sinclair>i remember doing ajax stuff in 04
07:22:45  <opus_>or whatever ecmascript version it was.
07:23:02  <opus_>then jquery standardized it
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07:23:15  <lpghatguy>The majority of frameworks are still built around the majority of interaction being through direct navigation in the browser as opposed to sending a thin client for the homepage and staying on it
07:23:16  <opus_>then node.js brought it to the server
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07:23:53  <sinclair>lpghatguy: frameworks perhaps, but SPA's have been around for as long as ajax has been
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07:24:08  <opus_>I wrote some unixODBC C++ wrapper for SQL Server that returned JSON waaay back in the days cuz I knew it was the future. this must have been 2005 or 2006
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07:24:37  <sinclair>lpghatguy: to be fair, most SPA / RIA applications were done in flash for a long time (then flex when abobe throught about what developers actually need)
07:24:40  <opus_>you sent a SQL select, and it returned a JSON string that was eval'd
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07:24:55  <lpghatguy>opus_, sounds dangerou
07:25:04  <opus_>i pray that code isn't still running
07:25:16  <lpghatguy>I had to clean up after a guy at my old company who wrote an API like that
07:25:19  <sinclair>opus_: ever looked at OData?
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07:25:35  <opus_>No, whats that?
07:26:05  <sinclair>opus_: its a open specification for providing a query syntax at the url (on get requests as query params)
07:26:13  <sinclair>read operations
07:26:17  <opus_>nooooooo there's an XML example on odata.org. stay away! xml!
07:26:21  <lpghatguy>I didn't think it was that much of a problem
07:26:24  <lpghatguy>nooo, xml
07:26:35  <opus_>XMl set us back like 10 years when it came out :)
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07:26:49  <sinclair>opus_: it supports json also
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07:27:08  <sinclair>atom and json feeds
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07:27:22  <opus_>looks interesting, i'll have to check it out
07:27:41  <sinclair>netflix had a odata service up for a while where you could query movies
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07:28:12  <sinclair>opus_: if you do any .net, there are OData to linq provoders available, which is nice
07:28:16  <sinclair>*providers
07:28:19  <lpghatguy>I've always just liked /path/to/resources/query?param1=x&param2=y or sending a query object when it's necessary (just not AutoTask-style SOAP, please dear god)
07:28:41  <sinclair>lpghatguy: you haven't standardized your query parameter
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07:29:00  <sinclair>lpghatguy: the idea is....
07:29:22  <sinclair> /path/to/resources <-- returns some data of some schema
07:29:45  <sinclair>where odata lets you filter based on that schema, but it also allows you to project data
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07:30:35  <sinclair>lpghatguy: imagine you have a data table with 1000 columns, odata would let the caller filter down to the 3 or 4 columns they are interested in and return that in the response (as a example)
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07:30:51  <lpghatguy>wouldn't I have prior knowledge of those columns if I'm writing an application to consume this API anyways?
07:31:04  <lpghatguy>it makes me think of SOAP's WSDL files
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07:31:10  <lpghatguy>and SOAP is a mess
07:31:12  <opus_>yeah I was just about to say SOAP
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07:31:38  <opus_>Lets take all the messed up stuff about XML, write a CRUD wrapper, and then call it "Simple"
07:31:41  <sinclair>lpghatguy: odata provides a wsdl like schema (its returned as a atom feed from memory) that client can learn of the data prior...this is good for automation, and its optionally published
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07:32:13  <opus_>SOAP was better then COBRA though. ugh
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07:32:17  <lpghatguy>amen
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07:32:28  <sinclair>opus_: nothing wrong with soap, the problem is that no one did soap, or provided the same automation and tooling microsoft did
07:32:54  <sinclair>in fact, for a long time, people thought SOAP was a microsoft thing,
07:33:00  <ljharb>https://web.archive.org/web/20130708174927/http://stopsoap.com/
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07:33:01  <lpghatguy>it might as well have been
07:33:19  <sinclair>lpghatguy: i disagree soap was a bad idea
07:33:21  <lpghatguy>sinclair, I guess it's okay then. I'm not sure it's an idea I can see the value in standardizing, since I've never figured there was a need to automatically query arbitrary properties from unknown datasets. :P
07:33:24  <opus_>i beg to differ, I spent many hours debugging C SOAP wrappers. when the .NET "right click to generate WSDL came out" that was like a life saver for me. But still it was horrible
07:33:30  <ljharb>that was my favorite "stop sopa" website :-p
07:34:07  <lpghatguy>most of my experience with SOAP comes from a fun little productivity and management tool called AutoTask.
07:34:12  <opus_>stop soap? haha
07:34:17  <ljharb>:-)
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07:34:36  <opus_>omg i'm going to gorge my eyes out looking at this XML
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07:34:53  <sinclair>lpghatguy: if you had developed web services with microsoft technology, you would have a vastly different viewpoint on soap
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07:35:16  <sinclair>personally, SOAP did a lot of things right, more write than wrong
07:35:25  <sinclair>specifically, WSDL was amazing
07:35:39  <lpghatguy>it was a pain in the ass to write tooling for if you were outside of the microsoft universe
07:35:51  <lpghatguy>It was too complicated for what it did
07:35:55  <opus_>yeah it was
07:35:59  <lpghatguy>and it wasn't standardized enough either
07:35:59  <sinclair>lpghatguy: it wasn't complicated at all
07:36:15  <lpghatguy>So many undocumented behaviors with all the services I used, like how they handled genericly typed arrays
07:36:19  <sinclair>lpghatguy: WSDL was based on XSD, whats the problem?
07:36:30  <opus_>Freaking A I'm still on the g-soap mailing list
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07:36:45  <lpghatguy>I'm not saying I promote XSD either
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07:37:11  <ljharb>liking xml-based things is a special kind of masochism
07:37:18  <ljharb>altho i like html, so there's some irony for me
07:37:19  <opus_>lol, i just randomly clicked on an email from the gsoap mailing list. those poor soles
07:37:20  <sinclair>lpghatguy: like most things, you can do things "the right way" or the "wrong way", the way i saw things, most java soap implementations were painful
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07:37:50  <ningu>this sounds like the "no true scotsman" argument
07:38:03  <sinclair>i actually think Java heads implemented SOAP in such a messy, stupid way as to different from microsofts sensible implementation
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07:38:35  <sinclair>the only things i didn't really like about SOAP was how XML based it was...but there is no reason why JSONSchema can't replace the ideas
07:38:59  <opus_>500+ page books about it you can read all day long
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07:39:16  <sinclair>opus_: SOAP was self explainatory tho
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07:39:37  <sinclair>you had operations, inputs, and outputs and a schema definition for types
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07:39:45  <lpghatguy>the fact that no decent non-Microsoft implementations exist is a testament to the technology being too complex to implement well
07:39:55  <opus_>Of course, S stands for Simple, SOAP stands for Simple Object Access Protocol (XML protocol)
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07:40:01  <sinclair>lpghatguy: not at all
07:40:16  <opus_>if you put "Simple" in your name it makes it simple :)
07:40:18  <sinclair>lpghatguy: name something better than WSDL ?
07:40:56  <lpghatguy>under what limitations?
07:41:28  <sinclair>lpghatguy: that it must adequately describe a web service interface with high fedality
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07:41:32  <opus_>any old Restify instance will be the crap out of WSDL everyday
07:41:33  * ninguthinks earlier sinclair was having an issue with his WSDL tooth
07:41:40  <ljharb>lol
07:41:41  <opus_>s/be/beat/
07:41:49  <lpghatguy>JSON Schema?
07:42:07  <sinclair>lpghatguy: JSON Schema isn't complete, and doesn't describe service interfaces
07:42:26  <sinclair>lpghatguy: in fact, JSONSChema on its own only describes types, not operations
07:42:36  <opus_>which is a good thing because you aren't limited to soviet-era software limitiations
07:42:37  <ljharb>http verbs describe operations
07:42:37  <sinclair>and, json still has no standard date time format
07:42:38  <lpghatguy>I think combined with de-facto standards in HTTP verbing it's sufficient
07:42:58  <ljharb>and urls describe resources. what else do you need?
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07:43:02  <sinclair>lpghatguy: what HTTP verb would i use to turning on a light switch ?
07:43:21  <ningu>you can't standardize verbs for all possible actions, no one will ever agree
07:43:26  <lpghatguy>GET to lightswitch/on?
07:43:26  <sinclair>lpghatguy: what HTTP verb would i use to run a batch job?
07:43:37  <ljharb>POST to the right endpoint. which you look up in the docs once, and then you're good
07:43:41  <opus_>HTTP isn't a light switch
07:43:47  <lpghatguy>it may be a teapot
07:43:51  <sinclair>opus_: no, it isn't
07:43:55  <opus_>HTTP isn't a crontab editor
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07:44:02  <sinclair>opus_: nope
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07:44:15  <sinclair>opus_: lpghatguy is suggesting REST and verbs for everything
07:44:22  <lpghatguy>yes, I am
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07:44:38  <lpghatguy>REST, JSON, verbs, that's everything
07:44:43  <ljharb>+1
07:44:44  <sinclair>my argument is, that as nice as REST is, its terrible for dealing with arbitrary operations
07:44:50  <opus_>just POST a JSON request { enableLight: true }
07:44:53  <ningu>sinclair: it's arbitrary to do it that way but it's also sufficient
07:44:59  <ningu>all the alternatives are worse
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07:45:06  <lpghatguy>it isn't a program's job to learn APIs, it's a programmers
07:45:13  <sinclair>ningu: yes and no
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07:45:32  <ningu>yeah, I don't think programs are (currently) smart enough to do that kind of discovery
07:45:47  <ningu>there are too many ways it can go wrong
07:45:58  <sinclair>ningu: WSDL gave you that discovery, as did disco documents specifically
07:46:02  <ljharb>full REST involves that level of discovery. and that's too complex - casual RESTful is great
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07:46:26  <ningu>ljharb: is there a REST standard for e.g. listing what kind of resources there are?
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07:46:31  <lpghatguy>The complexity is unnecessary because I've never heard of an application designed to interface with arbitrary APIs and do anything meaningful with the data
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07:46:42  <sinclair>despite all this however, WSDL "DOES NOT" seem to allow users to describe bi directional transports
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07:46:49  <ljharb>ningu: yes, i believe a fully compliant REST API means that you can start at the root, and OPTIONS your way through the entire API
07:47:03  <ningu>ah, ok
07:47:23  <sinclair>so, WSDL is old tech, but its still awesome in what it does
07:47:30  <sinclair>as is XSD
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07:47:43  <lpghatguy>...for legacy applications
07:47:48  <sinclair>DTD however ....
07:47:54  <lpghatguy>DTD is just ugly
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07:48:31  <sinclair>lpghatguy: yes, yes it is, but you can plug it into some editors, they use it for document validation in some cases, so its not all bad
07:48:46  <opus_>yeah so was token ring, and every lightbulb will be on the internet with an ipv6 addr, and all lightbuls will follow XML SOAP spec specified by ITCC.
07:48:48  <sinclair>and you can infer DTD from XSD, but its not something i ever enjoyed working with directly
07:49:19  <sinclair>opus_: no, lightbulbs would likely use UPNP
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07:49:35  <sinclair>opus_: and UPNP also follows a WSDL like thing
07:49:35  <lpghatguy>I'm actually starting to set up a REST API for my household appliances
07:49:48  <sinclair>lpghatguy: perhaps you should use UPNP
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07:50:00  <opus_>lpghatguy, be old school! use SOAP!
07:50:10  <ljharb>lol token ring, i still have some of that hardware somewhere
07:50:10  <lpghatguy>REST is a lot easier to implement
07:50:17  <sinclair>opus_: i don't actualy use SOAP anymore btw
07:50:19  <opus_>yeah j/k:)
07:50:42  <lpghatguy>it'll also cause less havok on my local network
07:50:44  <sinclair>opus_: but i will disagree with anyone who rats on it as a technology, it was fine, and is still fine
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07:51:19  <opus_>Yeah I used it a lot and it served its purpose. I wish JSON/REST was around back in those days
07:51:22  <lpghatguy>are empty strings casting to null part of SOAP or was that just an API quirk of the server I was dealing with?
07:51:32  <lpghatguy>that alone upset me
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07:51:37  <sinclair>opus_: there is JSON Schema as a replacement to XSD
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07:51:45  <opus_>yeah I remember
07:52:01  <opus_>Then, from that day forward, I never touched it again :) I found about REST
07:52:22  <sinclair>opus_: REST doesn't solve all problems tho, often its a square peg in a round hole
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07:52:38  <lpghatguy>I've never felt that REST wasn't enough
07:52:47  <opus_>Yeah I just use it to do simple stuff
07:52:48  <sinclair>REST is fine for persistence for example, but is not a good fit some operational contract
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07:53:51  <sinclair>i would use REST for say, mapping http requests to read write operations on a disk, but not for operations where im having to run some arbitrary batch job, and other "one off" operations
07:53:51  <opus_>well lets see, I wrote this simple REST server that also proxied websocket for a vnc route. that was about 1 or 2 pages.
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07:54:38  <opus_>the amount of memory and overhead I just can't justify for small projects... or even big ones I think
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07:54:51  <sinclair>opus_: atm, there is no service description format (that i know of) for representing data flowing over a bi directional transport
07:54:53  <lpghatguy>sinclair, what would be wrong with GET /batchjobs/{job}/run?{parameters}
07:55:27  <lpghatguy>Well, good night, thank you for the discussion on services
07:55:32  <opus_>good night
07:55:37  <sinclair>lpghatguy: what if you wanted to send complex objects to that endpoint?
07:55:46  <sinclair>you wouldn't encode them in a GET request
07:55:46  <lpghatguy>POST with body of the object
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07:55:54  <sinclair>so which is it, a GET or a POST?
07:56:00  <sinclair>or is it a PUT?
07:56:01  <lpghatguy>a POST now, you include data
07:56:06  <lpghatguy>you aren't uploading a file, it isn't PUT
07:56:11  <sinclair>where is that written / standardized?
07:56:17  <lpghatguy>everywhere
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07:56:39  <lpghatguy>that's the model in question, HTTP verbs + nicely named resource/action identifiers
07:56:58  <sinclair>lpghatguy: what if i only need to send 1 argument ? would i just resort to GET's again?
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07:57:11  <lpghatguy>unless it's a well-formed data object, sure!
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07:57:23  <sinclair>lpghatguy: i know REST, ive been developing REST interfaces for years
07:57:24  <lpghatguy>No reason why they can't be interoperable, like ASP.NET MVC
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07:57:34  <lpghatguy>well, night for real
07:57:40  <sinclair>...
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07:58:21  <opus_>this looks cool http://blog.wordnik.com/introducing-swaggersocket-a-rest-over-websocket-protocol
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08:01:23  <sinclair>opus_: at this stage in the game, i don't know whether or not i should opt entirely for web sockets or having combinations of both web socket and rest
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08:02:11  <sinclair>opus_: for example, streaming uploads over a web socket...great...but what about multiplexing uploaded ws packets with other things being send over that transport
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