00:00:00  * sputnik13quit (Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
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00:00:04  <WebSpirit>myndzi: how is me calling you question pointless something *I* have a problem with?
00:00:09  <WebSpirit>your*
00:00:10  * ircretaryjoined
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00:00:21  <myndzi>first of all it's not my question, and second of all, who said you had a problem?
00:00:22  * NodeNagantquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:00:28  <myndzi>i just said it would make it clear to me whether i would hire you or not
00:00:34  * jamto11joined
00:00:36  <WebSpirit>myndzi: yes, it wasn't yours, for brevity
00:00:45  <myndzi>and i could see what sinclair was getting at
00:00:45  <sinclair|work>myndzi: you know, it would be nice to find some more people with critical thinking skiils, and the balls to pick out the issues with nodejs, rather than just ride along and praise it regardless of its obvious flaws here and there
00:00:50  * Flamquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:00:54  * ctorpjoined
00:01:11  <sinclair|work>myndzi: also, thanks
00:01:13  <myndzi>it would be nice to find an employer who i didn't have to oversell myself to :P
00:01:17  <myndzi>because i suck at that.
00:01:25  <sinclair|work>myndzi: got a portfolio ?
00:01:32  <myndzi>better, got a job
00:01:32  <myndzi>lol
00:01:35  <Zimdale>There are so many other factors that could go into place. If someone has phenomenal problem solving skills and don't know the base technology you would rule them out for that reason alone?
00:01:42  <myndzi>i'm just commenting on the hiring process in general
00:01:46  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: yes
00:01:47  <WebSpirit>myndzi: in an interview, both people get interviewed - the quality of your questions has a role on wheather the developer will join the company or not
00:01:53  * platojoined
00:01:58  <Zimdale>I feel that is painfully close minded sinclair|work
00:01:59  <myndzi>Zimdale: who said anything about this being the sole question by which everything is judged anyway?
00:02:05  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: not at all
00:02:05  * vervainjoined
00:02:07  <Zimdale>sinclair|work: did myndzi
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00:02:16  * tkuchikiquit (Remote host closed the connection)
00:02:18  <myndzi>yeah, well, i was busy typing
00:02:19  <myndzi>:P
00:02:28  <Zaxnyd>anyone good with highland.js?
00:02:31  <Zimdale>he said that is the sole question
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00:03:29  <myndzi>that's not really what was written, browsing the history, but it hardly matters
00:03:30  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: you just told me that the defining characteristic of nodejs was "javascript", language really doesn't amount for much, and having great JS skill isn't really a selling point
00:03:33  * dotdevquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:03:38  <Zimdale>and again I feel it really depends on the position, if you are looking for a lead sr...okay you can expect a lot. But you have to expect people to be able to learn.
00:03:52  * richiebkrquit
00:04:00  <Zimdale>no sinclair|work, I told you why I like/use nodejs
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00:04:35  * uxfiquit (Quit: Here's to the crazy ones)
00:04:39  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: the question wasn't if you like it or not, the question was to outline the characteristics of nodejs that make it different from some other platform
00:04:44  <yogurt_truck>"language really doesn't amount for much" now there's an interviewer *I* would fire
00:04:59  * jamto11quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
00:05:06  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: you would say that
00:05:18  <sinclair|work>mr fp and all
00:05:19  <yogurt_truck>Zimdale: javascript is obviously 90% of the reason people adopt this not-special-at-all-in-any-other-way platform -_-
00:05:58  <myndzi>javascript is also not the defining characteristic... writing for node is quite different from writing for a browser
00:06:00  <yogurt_truck>s/fp and all/person who cares about tool selection and software maintenance/
00:06:11  * kevireillyjoined
00:06:16  * lwquit (Quit: s)
00:06:23  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: that is not the point that was being made, but ok
00:06:35  <spronk>fp isn't a silver bullet..
00:06:38  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: actually, it was the point
00:06:48  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: nope.
00:06:55  * MikeS_quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
00:06:58  <yogurt_truck>spronk: nothing is, so what?
00:07:05  <spronk>but i agree with the sentiment that language amounts for quite a bit
00:07:16  <sinclair|work>granted, anyone you hire have to know the language you expect them to work in, but knowing the platform they are targetting is equally important
00:07:39  * EhevuTovquit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
00:07:42  <myndzi>you have to take the sentence in context; language doesn't really amount for much in answering the question at hand
00:07:43  <sinclair|work>in fact, id put platform knowledge orders above language knowledge
00:07:48  * jaw187quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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00:08:07  <myndzi>node is javascript but javascript is not node
00:08:09  <Zimdale>Okay sinclair|work, so if I know a TON about platform
00:08:14  <spronk>sinclair|work: depends on what for, but in some cases i'd agree
00:08:18  <Zimdale>and cannot problem solve worth anyhting
00:08:23  <Zimdale>its cool right?
00:08:32  <spronk>Zimdale: you could actually be a super useful employee
00:08:34  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: no
00:08:38  <spronk>providing the org has other problem solvers
00:08:40  <yogurt_truck>being able (or not) to push `possiblyNullThing.PossiblyUndefinedThing(x)` into production, kinda matters, you know? Being able to design your data structures (or not) matters too. Being able to express ideas, matters. Language matters.
00:08:45  <myndzi>well if you can't problem solve, you'll be pretty bad at answering questions about when to use what ;)
00:08:55  * encrypt3d_fractijoined
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00:09:09  <spronk>having walking and talking documentation is handy
00:09:21  <myndzi>quite
00:09:27  <myndzi>that's one of those depends on the position things ;)
00:09:30  <yogurt_truck>having documentation that's actually reliable, is handy
00:09:47  <spronk>at my first workplace we had a guy that basically couldn't write code
00:09:50  * gsdjoined
00:10:04  <spronk>but he knew almost everything there was to know about .net
00:10:05  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: hmm, id be mindful of having to deal with the abstract thinking of your typical FP programmer
00:10:22  * thinkt4nkjoined
00:10:23  <spronk>and where to find anything you needed to clarify etc, was amazingly handy for productivity
00:10:25  <sinclair|work>tho, FP programmers tend to be good,
00:10:27  * tskaggsjoined
00:10:33  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: no idea what that means
00:10:35  * MegaGMjoined
00:10:45  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: but you're doing abstract work too, btw
00:10:45  * spronkwouldn't agree that "FP programmers tend to be good."
00:10:57  <yogurt_truck>unless you're pushing electrons with your hands, you're in abstract land
00:11:06  <Shayanjm>I push electrons with my hands
00:11:06  <spronk>in my experience they're as much of a mixed bag as any other kind
00:11:07  <myndzi>i think it's the difference between a focus on writing the code for the code's sake and writing the code for getting shit done ;)
00:11:14  * M_F_Bjoined
00:11:17  <Shayanjm>I program with a steady hand and a magnetized needle
00:11:20  <Shayanjm>spronk: probably not.
00:11:21  <yogurt_truck>but some people delude themselves into making weird silly boundaries between "nice abstract" and "too abstract omg!!"
00:11:22  * ctorpquit (Remote host closed the connection)
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00:11:34  <yogurt_truck>these people don't know what "abstraction" means
00:11:45  <yogurt_truck>spronk: what's an FP programmer?
00:11:47  * MikeS_joined
00:11:57  * ctorpjoined
00:12:00  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: i hope you are not making that comment in reference to me
00:12:00  <yogurt_truck>these are meaningless terms
00:12:14  * thinkt4nkquit (Client Quit)
00:12:17  * tully_joined
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00:12:19  <myndzi>there's a fallacy for that, but i can't think of the name of it at the moment
00:12:23  <Shayanjm>yogurt_truck: aka a neckbeard amirite
00:12:27  <yogurt_truck>just because someone is writing some clojure, doesn't mean they're an "fp programmer"
00:12:30  * infynyxxquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:12:33  <spronk>yogurt_truck: my definition here is something that prefers using pure functions, in languages that are predominantly designed around functions, caring about immutability and typing and data structures
00:12:36  * mhernand_quit (Remote host closed the connection)
00:12:42  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: what comment?
00:12:44  <Shayanjm>spronk: versus what exactly
00:12:45  * cultherojoined
00:12:54  <Shayanjm>spronk: those are generally good things to have in any application
00:13:04  <Shayanjm>pure, intercomposable components
00:13:17  <spronk>Shayanjm: oh I'd agree for the 'caring about' parts
00:13:29  <spronk>that's just how i classify a "functional programmer" in my head
00:13:33  * encrypt3d_fractiquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:13:42  <spronk>people that value those things more than they value other things
00:13:44  * monikerjoined
00:13:55  <Zimdale>So sinclair|work, why not educate us a little bit and tell us how you would answer said question
00:14:07  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: do i have to?
00:14:17  <Zimdale>You expected it out of me apparently..
00:14:17  * yogurt_truckdoes value immutability more than he values soy burgers
00:14:19  <Shayanjm>spronk: that's like saying one person is a little bit more anal retentive than another
00:14:27  <sinclair|work>Zimdale: you wanted to know the question
00:14:32  <myndzi>funny thing about questions is, there doesn't have to be a correct answer for it to be a worthwhile question :)
00:14:41  <myndzi>as you can see, that question sparked a bunch of discussion
00:14:58  <myndzi>and we all learned some things that everybody believes about coding
00:15:00  * dkmax_joined
00:15:00  <spronk>yeah it is in some ways but speaking specifically around programming styles
00:15:14  <yogurt_truck>spronk: in any case, note that I didn't even mention FP, or functions, or a language
00:15:19  <spronk>i've seen some brilliant programmers that don't care at all about immutibility
00:15:25  * tskaggsquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:15:35  <spronk>a*
00:15:45  <myndzi>as a direct consequence, there is a clear distinction between which of you all would work well together and/or with an existing team or particularly minded lead
00:15:53  <yogurt_truck>spronk: it was just a fallacious "blahh I bet you'd say that, you Mr. FP you!!1" silly comment by sinclair|work, as a response to something I said that had nothing to do with FP
00:15:57  * pdivadjoined
00:16:03  * spronkknows
00:16:11  <myndzi>really, the best answer to a question would be one that i hadn't considered but was good :)
00:16:19  * ctorpquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:16:22  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: oh you know you mate, always on the FP gravy train :P
00:16:22  * dotdev_quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:16:38  * spronkalways likes to get a sharp stab in whenever functional programming is mentioned :D
00:16:41  <myndzi>there's neither an F or a P in gravy train ???
00:16:43  * tylersmithjoined
00:16:44  * myndzigrins
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00:16:57  <myndzi>so how do you guys feel about qbasic
00:17:05  <spronk>nostalgic
00:17:08  <sinclair|work>myndzi: its awesome
00:17:18  <myndzi>haha, true that
00:17:19  <WebSpirit>qbasic was hipster - gwbasic ftw
00:17:31  <spronk>also
00:17:32  <sinclair|work>QBASIC 7.1 Professional ftw
00:17:32  <spronk>gorillas.
00:17:34  <myndzi>gwbasic had the advantage that you could run programs without that blue flicker
00:17:49  <WebSpirit>exactly! :)
00:17:50  <myndzi>which was helpful if you were trying to grab peoples' passwords ... ahem.
00:17:58  <Zimdale>I feel like I am too young for QBasic
00:18:00  <myndzi>not that i would do anything like that when i was young and impressionable
00:18:18  <sinclair|work>myndzi: ever grab your scripts from qbasic.com?
00:18:26  <myndzi>dunno how the teacher caught wise to it but one day i noticed the source code had been changed to a comment "Nice try"
00:18:34  * monikerquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:18:35  * anonymous_quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:18:35  <myndzi>(it wasn't on the teacher's computer)
00:18:37  <myndzi>lol no
00:18:42  <myndzi>i typed my shit out of those books from the library
00:18:43  <sinclair|work>myndzi: i did
00:18:44  * dorkmafi1quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:18:46  <myndzi>fixing typos and bugs and all
00:18:46  <sinclair|work>http://www.qbasic.com/
00:18:55  * heskewjoined
00:19:08  * aihamjoined
00:19:12  <myndzi>well i suppose there was an overlap between the internet and qbasic
00:19:23  <myndzi>but i was more on the leading edge than the trailing one :P
00:19:42  * switzjoined
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00:19:52  <sinclair|work>its still there, myndzi mind you, prior to inter interwebs and qbasic, it was Amiga Basic, then Commodore Basic, and then Basic on the Sinclair and Spectrum (saving stuff to cassette)
00:19:53  <myndzi>nostalgia is what made me write wumpus in mirc script a while back hehe
00:20:06  <myndzi>not quite THAT old :)
00:20:13  * slainer68joined
00:20:23  <myndzi>oldest machine i can remember we had was a tandy somethingorother
00:20:36  <myndzi>but i think it ran dos
00:20:43  <spronk>amstrad cpc6128 ftw
00:20:50  <sinclair|work>myndzi: back in the 80's, i spent like months trying to figure out have to read and write files to tape...all the books i had were for the BBC Micro, but i didn't have one of those
00:20:55  * spronk's first machine was a commodore 128d
00:20:58  * nunofmnquit (Remote host closed the connection)
00:21:06  <sinclair|work>and each home computer had a different version of basic
00:21:15  <myndzi>i feel like a failure of a nerd kinda, for never working on a commodore
00:21:19  * ctorpjoined
00:21:26  <spronk>myndzi: not too late ;)
00:21:30  * dorkmafi1joined
00:21:30  <myndzi>but i don't feel as bad for failing to recognize a data tape by sound
00:21:31  <spronk>there's a thriving demoscene
00:21:32  * danfinchquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:21:43  * dashedquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:21:44  * jontmorehousejoined
00:21:46  <myndzi>i can be forgiven for confusing it for a modem that was old enough i didn't recognize its soound
00:21:47  <myndzi>lol
00:21:51  <myndzi>yeah, the demoscene is awesome
00:21:56  <sinclair|work>myndzi: http://www.kingsquare.nl/jsc64
00:21:59  <spronk>load "*",8,1
00:22:18  * mndynclquit (Quit: Leaving.)
00:22:21  <myndzi>but really, it's more like "not having done it"
00:22:25  <myndzi>i could care less about using one now :P
00:22:27  * alexandrevicenzijoined
00:22:40  <spronk>there's something nice about using older machines like c64
00:22:51  <spronk>an elegant computer for a more civilized age.
00:22:54  <myndzi>a kind of burning smell...
00:22:56  <myndzi>>:)
00:22:59  * monikerjoined
00:23:10  * hnordtjoined
00:23:14  <myndzi>yeah, before there was 1080p streaming hardcore porn all up in your face right?
00:23:46  * yogurt_truckonly used iomega jaz disks, because he's always been enterprise and webscale
00:23:49  <sinclair|work>myndzi: im current reliving a british computing thing, i am into the raspberry pi, the device reminds me a lot of some old british home computer
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00:23:58  * heskewquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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00:24:06  <spronk>haha jaz
00:24:09  <spronk>they were so unreliable
00:24:11  <gildean>i made this site to look like a c=64 basic (but it can't do anything else than just load a list and list it): http://okloco.com
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00:24:37  * joshwnjjoined
00:24:41  <gildean>load "$",8
00:24:43  <gildean>list
00:24:45  <gildean>etc.
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00:25:07  <myndzi>i mowed so many lawns for my zip drive :P
00:25:24  <spronk>yeah :D
00:25:25  <myndzi>i have a raspberry pi somewhere actually, someone got me as a gift
00:25:38  * tim_smartjoined
00:26:05  <myndzi>i programmed a little script on it with a webserver and took it to the classic gaming expo in portland to track scores/standings for the SNES tetris competition :P
00:26:05  <yogurt_truck>spronk: not as bad as the Zips though!
00:26:13  <spronk>yogurt_truck: for me they were worse :(
00:26:27  <spronk>my zip drives never developed the click of death
00:26:27  * slainer68quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
00:26:30  <yogurt_truck>my favorite was when removing a zip drive would destroy both drive and disk <3
00:26:33  <myndzi>i musta got lucky, no click of death or anything like that
00:26:44  <myndzi>that's a pretty bad design flaw, i'll have to admit ;)
00:26:45  <yogurt_truck>removing a zip disk*
00:26:45  <spronk>my jaz drive however, overheated and killed 2 carts
00:26:46  * modojoined
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00:27:08  <yogurt_truck>:(
00:27:21  * phuhquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:27:28  <spronk>they were the epitome of cool at the time though
00:27:33  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: mate, do you have any thoughts on Rust?
00:27:34  <myndzi>nerd war stories lol.
00:27:34  * MegaGMjoined
00:27:35  <spronk>1gb on a disk. oooh yeah.
00:27:38  * MegaGMpart
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00:33:16  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: The type system is great compared to C++, and nothing special compared to Haskell and beyond. As for its semantics, I see a bunch of good ideas in there, but I haven't used the lang, so, I don't know how they play with each other. Traits are basically type classes, which already makes it better at modularity than all mainstream languages that share similar goals.
00:33:30  * hillctquit (Quit: hillct)
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00:33:50  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: yeah, what about immutable by default?
00:33:59  <yogurt_truck>no comment on its surface syntax, because I don't care about that kinda stuff.
00:34:05  * patrickarltjoined
00:34:06  <harttho>Has anyone encountered http module memory leaks/creep?
00:34:14  * t_pquit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
00:34:42  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: im pleased to hear you don't care for its surface syntax, i am of the same opinion
00:34:53  * briandel_quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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00:35:05  <harttho>https://gist.github.com/yagottahavehart/6d3f8f2aa4edca10fc10 shows the memory go up (using 10.29 Node)
00:35:09  <myndzi>care about/care for... mmm yeh :P
00:35:20  * shadowcoderchanged nick to shadowcoder_
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00:35:25  <harttho>Even with all 200's as responses
00:35:38  * rho_joined
00:35:39  <joshwnj>harttho: i think i recall the Walmart team talking about something similar. there's a nodeup about it
00:35:40  * basicdaysjoined
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00:36:08  <harttho>Yeah, Just read the walmart article. Their fix was on 10.22 =(
00:36:13  * redocwodahs_changed nick to _redocwodahs
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00:36:16  <joshwnj>ah :|
00:36:21  <harttho>Thanks though
00:36:22  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: i grabbed the compiler the other day, will be spending some time with Rust to see what i can build with it
00:36:26  * rhoquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:36:31  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: I'm used to immutable by default, so I wouldn't have any problem with that. Very rarely do I want/need to "assign" to some reference. So it makes sense that it's a non-default behaviour. Also it has permission semantics for dealing with references, that's nice.
00:36:33  * AlexZanfquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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00:36:49  <yogurt_truck>sinclair|work: good idea
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00:37:22  <joshwnj>harttho: np, good luck :)
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00:46:50  <Sorella>Immutability by default is always a good idea, since you usually don't need mutability.
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00:47:47  <Sorella>And mutability makes things unnecessarily complicated. So it's not something that adds any kind of value, but rather something you'd like to avoid as much as you can.
00:48:05  <Sorella>(sometimes it's hard to avoid it, so it's good to have controlled forms of mutability)
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00:53:51  <yogurt_truck>yes.
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00:54:05  <yogurt_truck>you want at least rank-2 type params to keep values that depend on mutable state from escaping local scope and going to illegal parties and raves
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00:58:09  <spronk>rank 2 type params?
00:58:11  <spronk>what are these
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01:03:44  <yogurt_truck>spronk: it's for being able to write parametrically polymorphic functions that can use their generic arguments as different types in a single call
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01:04:28  <yogurt_truck>spronk: not being able to do this becomes a very obvious pain when you start writing generic higher-order functions
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01:06:04  <myndzi>care to demonstrate with a more concrete example?
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01:06:41  <myndzi>i was following until the part about 'different types in a single call'
01:06:42  <myndzi>:P
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01:07:01  <yogurt_truck>ok
01:07:14  <yogurt_truck>consider `fun twice(a: A): (A, A) = (a, a)`
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01:07:27  <yogurt_truck>as a parametrically polymorphic function, in some made up language
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01:07:38  <ari-_-e>is there a way to connect to a running node process and start a repl in the context of the global object? kind of like a browser js console?
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01:07:54  <myndzi>node-inspector
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01:07:59  <myndzi>may have what you want
01:08:14  <myndzi>twice(a: A) ?
01:08:20  <myndzi>uncertain what the : signifies in this syntax
01:08:21  <yogurt_truck>so `twice(2) == (2,2)`, `twice(List(1,2,3)) == (List(1,2,3), List(1,2,3)`, etc.
01:08:28  <yogurt_truck>it's a generic function
01:08:34  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: the type of the value
01:08:34  <ari-_-e>myndzi: I've looked at that, but I would prefer something on the command line
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01:08:42  <myndzi>i'm guessing that's the part i was confused about, the 'generic arguments' part
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01:08:54  <myndzi>ari-_-e: well you can use 'debugger;' and node --debug etc.
01:09:06  <myndzi>but i'm not sure what there is to connect to an existing process
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01:09:30  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: `A` there means "for all types, which we'll call `A` in this definition"
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01:09:46  <ari-_-e>myndzi: I can start the app with --debug yes, and then I can use "node debug localhost:5858", which starts a debug console, but I think you can only really use it when you're stopped at a breakpoint
01:10:07  <myndzi>probably; i mean, you're debugging
01:10:13  <myndzi>if all you want is a repl you don't need debugging involved
01:10:21  <myndzi>i think there's a module in core that'll let you present a repl?
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01:10:54  <myndzi>yogurt_truck: so 'a' is the value, 'A' is the type, (type, type) = (value, value) ?
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01:11:31  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: {nameOfValue} : {nameOfType}
01:11:39  <myndzi>i guess i can see what you mean by higher order function ;)
01:11:43  <yogurt_truck>e.g. x: Int, "hello": String, etc.
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01:11:59  <myndzi>right, i was talking about the (A, A) = (a, a) part now
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01:12:28  <yogurt_truck>(A, A) would be the type of a tuple
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01:12:35  <yogurt_truck>`(a, a)` is the function's body
01:12:51  <myndzi>mk
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01:13:16  <myndzi>and the function therefore works for ints, strings, whatever
01:13:24  <yogurt_truck>yes
01:13:30  <yogurt_truck>"all types"
01:13:32  <myndzi>but binding the types of what it's doing to the type that was input without a bunch of checks etc.
01:13:46  <yogurt_truck>yes
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01:14:19  <myndzi>thanks
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01:14:42  <yogurt_truck>you get guarantees, such as e.g. `fun foo(a: A, f: A => B): B` only has 1 possible valid implementation
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01:15:03  <yogurt_truck>(which is to return `f(a)`)
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01:15:24  <myndzi>just really unfamiliar syntax to me, i'll read about it
01:15:55  <yogurt_truck>anyway, that's all good, but it's rank 1, and it's limited for many cases. rank-N types are all about getting rid of those limits.
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01:16:15  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: what syntax do you know?
01:16:30  <myndzi>well, consider the channel :P
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01:16:39  <myndzi>but single letter variable names don't help either :)
01:16:44  <ari-_-e>myndzi: yes, it looks like I could write a server which essentially gives access to a repl - it basically shows you how to do that here: http://nodejs.org/api/repl.html I was just wondering if there was anything built in
01:16:48  <yogurt_truck>I'll use another one if it helps
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01:17:09  <myndzi>i assume it's just normal functional programming style paradigms, in which case it's not gonna make much sense until i learn more
01:17:15  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: consider the conversation. the context was about type-related things. JS can't express any of it
01:17:22  <myndzi>i know :)
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01:17:29  <myndzi>thus: i'll read about it
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01:17:53  <myndzi>i mean, i could follow c-style syntax or java-like i'm sure
01:18:02  <myndzi>but those aren't languages that implement this sort of thing so what's the point :P
01:18:44  <yogurt_truck>that's the thing, the variable names are not important at all. `fun foo(a: A, f: A => B): B` is a function that can only do one thing, and you will know what it is even if the names involved are Banana, FuzzyBear, and SnakeOnAPlane.
01:18:48  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: Java could do
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01:19:02  <yogurt_truck>but then Java doesn't really support higher order programming
01:19:06  <myndzi>what i mean is, the variable names don't describe what they represent
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01:19:19  <myndzi>so it's hard to both figure out what you're writing and apply the meaning you're using it to demonstrate
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01:19:38  <yogurt_truck>myndzi: they don't have to, and it wouldn't be reliable anyway
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01:19:55  <yogurt_truck>`fun ______(^&^&^@: A, *&^*&@: A => B): B`
01:19:56  <myndzi>haha, i think we're talking sidewise
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01:20:02  <myndzi>i know that what they are can be something else
01:20:04  <yogurt_truck>that function can only do one thing, from its type
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01:20:08  <myndzi>but since i don't know what they represent in that syntax
01:20:14  <myndzi>the names could be used to help that :)
01:20:17  <yogurt_truck>ah, of course
01:20:23  <yogurt_truck>yeah but that'd be a bad idea
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01:20:43  <myndzi>not for an eli5 summary of wtf did you just say
01:20:43  <myndzi>:P
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01:21:43  <yogurt_truck>well at least we went through step one of the 3 steps I had planned for explaining the rank 2 thing :D
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01:21:51  <myndzi>lol.
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01:22:29  <myndzi>i didn't expect you to have such patience, i was looking for reference material to link what you were saying to whatever i searched up
01:22:34  <myndzi>not have you explain it to me :)
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01:46:14  <Sorella>myndzi, you can't actually give a meaningful name to the parameters of that function.
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01:46:26  <Sorella>So whatever you choose will be equally as meaningful.
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01:48:02  <spronk>sure you can..
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01:48:06  <spronk>that's defeatism!
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01:48:30  <Sorella>spronk, what that function does depends entirely on `f`, and `f` can be any unary function that could ever exist.
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01:48:42  <spronk>`fun twice(input: AnyType): (AnyType, AnyType) = (a, a)`
01:48:49  <spronk>(input, input)
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01:48:54  <Sorella>spronk, that's not the same function
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01:49:00  <spronk>it isn't?
01:49:20  <spronk>.. was there something meaningful about A or a?
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01:49:25  <yogurt_truck>spronk: that's a lot less clear
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01:49:31  <spronk>to you perhaps
01:49:32  <Sorella>spronk, nope. With `AnyType` you could call that function with `twice("foo")` and it could return `(1, null)`
01:49:36  <yogurt_truck>and like Sorella said, not the same function
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01:49:48  <yogurt_truck>spronk: no, to anyone who knows how polymorphism works
01:49:54  <spronk>i'm confused, what did A represent?
01:50:02  <yogurt_truck>spronk: that's the key
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01:50:15  <spronk>doesn't it represent any type you choose?
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01:50:21  <spronk>or
01:50:29  <spronk>any type you choose to feed it
01:50:40  <Sorella>The function that yogurt_truck described was: `for all types, there is one type, which we will call A, and this function takes an argument of type A, and returns a tuple of two A's`
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01:50:54  <Sorella>See that `A` must be the same in the entire expression.
01:51:10  <Sorella>So if you have `twice("foo")` the function would be instantiated to the type `twice: String → (String, String)`
01:51:13  <yogurt_truck>spronk: A is a type parameter, and so whatever is concretized to, must be the same for the rest of the type annotation, this is lost when you just repeat "AnyType" all over the place
01:51:23  <spronk>well
01:51:26  <Sorella>But you don't know what `A` is so you can't actually generate `A` values on your own.
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01:51:42  <spronk>you fnproggers clearly see AnyType as differently to me..
01:51:45  <Sorella>Therefore the only thing you can do is return the exact input you're given
01:51:46  <spronk>perhaps
01:51:52  <spronk>InputType would have been a better name
01:51:55  <yogurt_truck>spronk: it's not about FP either
01:52:04  <yogurt_truck>spronk: right
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01:52:24  <spronk>if i see AnyType in a function declaration, then i see AnyType used in the implementation or output, i expect the two types to match, not be two possibly-separate types
01:52:26  <spronk>like a generic..
01:52:26  <Sorella>if you call `twice("foo")` even if the function becomes `twice : String → (String, String)`, you're guaranteed that the only possible implementation of that will always return `("foo", "foo")`
01:52:31  <yogurt_truck>spronk: that's more like it, but then again it's not more meaningful than `A`, provided you know generics
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01:52:41  * spronkprefers to explicitly name generics
01:52:52  <spronk>never see me using <T>, for example
01:52:57  <yogurt_truck>spronk: well then your expectation goes against all implementations out there :)
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01:53:06  <yogurt_truck>specially languages with subtyping :(
01:53:19  <spronk>well
01:53:30  <spronk>a subtype is for all intents and purposes able to satisfy the supertype though right?
01:53:41  <spronk>in the example above
01:53:43  <Sorella>TBF, yogurt_truck should've used `forall A. twice(a: A): (A, A)`
01:53:43  <yogurt_truck>where `f(a: Any): Any` can have literally any implementation ever
01:53:48  * kalehvquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:53:58  <yogurt_truck>whereas `f(a: A): A` can only have *one*
01:54:16  <spronk>...eh?
01:54:27  <spronk>so A is semantically important
01:54:27  <spronk>?
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01:54:39  <spronk>isn't it just an identifier?
01:54:40  <Sorella>spronk, in the latter case, it's `forall A. f(a: A): A`
01:54:43  <yogurt_truck>spronk: `f(a: Any): Any` in a subtyped language can have infinite implementations
01:54:58  <Sorella>But since it's a single letter, people just assume that the `forall` is implicit to the declaration
01:55:01  <yogurt_truck>spronk: what Sorellasaid
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01:55:08  <yogurt_truck>Sorella said*
01:55:11  <Sorella>Like: `<A> A f(A a)`
01:55:29  * euoiajoined
01:55:32  <Sorella>The `<A>` is the `forall A` part
01:55:35  * simonsternjoined
01:55:49  <yogurt_truck>Sorella: I was trying to use less syntax. I'd have introduced forall later, but the convo got cut off.
01:55:50  * spronkis even more confused now :(
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01:56:17  <spronk>is A not an identifier that could have any name?
01:56:19  <Sorella>spronk, where did we lose you?
01:56:22  * rglquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:56:39  <Sorella>spronk, you could have: `forall SOMETHING. f(a: SOMETHING): SOMETHING`
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01:56:51  <spronk>right, and that *is* the same function as the one above?
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01:57:21  <yogurt_truck>I think the confusion come form `Any` which I used up there as the name of the concrete mother type in a subtyped language
01:57:22  <Sorella>What I was explaining is that when you use a single letter, it is assumed that there's an implicit `forall A` before the expression, which isn't the case with `Any`, that usually refers to a concrete type.
01:57:34  <spronk>yogurt_truck: yeah, that was what i was trying to infer
01:57:47  * loremipsonjoined
01:57:48  <yogurt_truck>e.g. Any in Scala, Object in Java, etc.
01:57:49  <spronk>using "SOMETHING" instead of A is massively more readable to me
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01:57:59  <yogurt_truck>spronk: haha why
01:58:05  <spronk>i can read words
01:58:09  <yogurt_truck>spronk: it adds vagueness and confusion
01:58:10  <Sorella>spronk, why, though? The type can have NO concrete meaning in that expression.
01:58:12  <spronk>i have to ... inspect... letters
01:58:13  <yogurt_truck>something?
01:58:15  * cultherojoined
01:58:19  <yogurt_truck>so, not anything?
01:58:26  <Sorella>A and Something have exactly the same meaning, though.
01:58:48  * AlexZanfquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:58:53  <yogurt_truck>only with the explicit `forall SOMETHING`
01:58:55  <Sorella>Once you get into parametric polymorphism, you're dealing with abstract things. You can't give them concrete meanings.
01:59:10  <yogurt_truck>but then if you have that syntax, you know that it's *for all*
01:59:14  <Sorella>You deal with shapes, not names.
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01:59:54  <spronk>i disagree that A and something have the same meaning
01:59:58  <spronk>SOMETHING communicates its meaning
02:00:00  <spronk>A is a meaningless identifier
02:00:09  <yogurt_truck>and therefore if you read ``forall SOMETHING`` you immediately know that `SOMETHING` is just the author's long way of saying `A` xD
02:00:15  <yogurt_truck>spronk: no
02:00:17  * connrsquit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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02:00:32  <Sorella>So, `f: A → A` has the shape of a single thing, that returns another single thing, whereas `f: A, (A → B) → B` has the shape of a single thing, a transformation of things, and returns a single thing.
02:00:43  <Sorella>It's a lot like lego. You don't name legos.
02:00:46  <yogurt_truck>spronk: as a parametrically polymorphic type, neither is more meaningful
02:00:54  <spronk>well
02:00:54  <modcure>sounds like homework
02:00:55  <spronk>tbh
02:00:55  <Sorella>You just think about their shapes, and how you can connect them
02:00:56  <spronk>i do name lego
02:00:56  <mscdex>you can name lego people
02:01:03  <Sorella>D:
02:01:04  <spronk>"2x4 block", "1x2 block" etc
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02:01:13  <Sorella>spronk, that's exactly what A does :P
02:01:18  <yogurt_truck>xD
02:01:19  <spronk>yeah, but it doesn't tell me that
02:01:23  <spronk>i ahve to wonder what A represents
02:01:24  <yogurt_truck>it does!
02:01:28  <yogurt_truck>hahaha
02:01:30  <Sorella>spronk, it does.
02:01:35  <Sorella>spronk, it represents "something"
02:01:37  <Sorella>That's all
02:01:42  <Sorella>It can't represent anything else. Ever.
02:01:43  <nexxy>so meta
02:01:44  <spronk>so why not say that :P
02:01:47  <yogurt_truck>also, the comparison is wrong
02:01:53  <yogurt_truck>it's not A vs. SOMETHING
02:02:03  <yogurt_truck>it's ``forall SOMETHING`` vs. ``forall A``
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02:02:16  <yogurt_truck>and both make it very clear that it's a type parameter name for *anything* xD
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02:02:34  <Sorella>spronk, because you've only got a single "something" word in english. So if you have: `f: (A → B, B → C) → (A → C)`, what would you use to represent `A`, `B` and `C`.
02:02:47  <Sorella>They're different "somethings," but they're all "something"
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02:02:57  <yogurt_truck>the fact that you say that SOMETHING "tells you more" only tells me you're not actually informed by the parametric polymorphism
02:02:58  <spronk>even TypeA, TypeB, TypeC would be better in my eyes
02:03:06  <yogurt_truck>-_-
02:03:23  <spronk>i can read words really fast
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02:03:28  <spronk>faster than i can read individual letters
02:03:31  <Sorella>spronk, it's a type expression, A can only be a type
02:03:36  <nexxy>it depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.
02:03:46  <Sorella>So "TypeA" doesn't give you any additional information over A
02:03:54  <spronk>but it's faster for me to see it
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02:04:02  <Sorella>...how exactly?
02:04:07  <spronk>not sure
02:04:14  <yogurt_truck>``forall TypeA`` in preference to ``forall A`` is again only a sign that you're not informed by parametric polymorphism
02:04:18  <spronk>would have to get into cognitive psy for t hat explanation, probably
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02:04:35  <spronk>also, i can only imagine how a dyslexic person would feel
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02:04:43  <Sorella>It looks really confusing once you've got them like: `f: (TypeA → TypeB, TypeB → TypeC) → (TypeA → TypeC)`, because now there's a lot of noise that's making it hard to "see" the shape of the function.
02:04:55  * de_hennejoined
02:04:56  <yogurt_truck>Sorella: that just hurts
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02:05:01  <Sorella>Only the shape matters, the names are meaningless. And I'd rather use colours, but unfortunately we're stuck with text
02:05:12  * bmcqueejoined
02:05:14  <nexxy>FOR NOW
02:05:18  <Sorella>THOUGH
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02:05:31  <yogurt_truck>function add(someValueX: Nat, someValueY: Nat): Nat
02:05:34  <yogurt_truck>:)
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02:05:52  <Sorella>I actually want to work on a visual PL that uses shapes and colours to express types so you can use it for teaching little kids to program in a type safe language as if they're playing with LEGO
02:05:54  <spronk>you see noise, i see clarity :P
02:06:02  <Sorella>But time isn't a thing I've had much lately
02:06:20  <Sorella>(more because I spend the whole day staring blankly at my computer than because I'm busy tho)
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02:06:27  <nexxy>Sorella: kind of like scratch?
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02:06:38  <Sorella>nexxy, yes, but more functional and Haskell-ish
02:06:42  <nexxy>neat
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02:07:24  * spronkreally does find the compactness of expression to be quite a barrier to most fn code
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02:08:12  <puddy>hi, might be the wrong channel to ask this but i setup node.js on an ubuntu precise64 box in vagrant. i run the simple http server app from nodejs.org, I can't connect to it on my host - i try running the same app on my host machine it works. I tried running a python httpserver on the guest machine and it works on my host as well.. anyone know why the node app doesn't work?
02:08:24  <Sorella>spronk, what about: `f: (◼ → ◯, ◯ → ▻) → ◼ → ▻`?
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02:08:46  <Sorella>I should've used a different triangular shape
02:08:48  <spronk>better
02:08:52  <nexxy>puddy: my guess is that you haven't set the port forwarding in your Vagrantfile
02:08:52  <puddy>Also, if i ssh into the box and do a curl it works
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02:09:02  <spronk>but still quite compact
02:09:13  <nexxy>puddy: https://docs.vagrantup.com/v2/networking/forwarded_ports.html
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02:09:17  <Sorella>Well, they are shapes, they're meant to be compact
02:09:21  * c4milojoined
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02:09:34  <yogurt_truck>so compact is bad because...?
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02:09:38  <puddy>nexxy: i've setup port forwarding - config.vm.network "forwarded_port", guest: 1337, host: 8080
02:09:40  <puddy>:(
02:09:46  <Sorella>But you can differentiate them with more ease than letters, I think.
02:09:49  <spronk>yogurt_truck: iIi1ilili1ili
02:09:53  <puddy>try on my host 127.0.0.1:8080 no worky :(
02:09:54  <spronk>vs
02:09:56  <spronk>abcdefg
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02:10:05  <nexxy>puddy: and you're sure your app is listening locally on 1337?
02:10:08  <yogurt_truck>spronk: huh?
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02:10:19  <nexxy>puddy: is this vagrant using VMWare?
02:10:28  <puddy>nexxy: vagrant + virtualbox
02:10:32  <puddy>on a windows 7 host
02:10:33  <nexxy>ah
02:10:38  <yogurt_truck>anyways, nevermind, I actually don't care enough about people's preference in aesthetics and surface syntax!
02:10:50  <yogurt_truck>back to talking about relationships between members of an algebra, plz!
02:10:51  <nexxy>I've never done that on win7, but in the past I've had to actually go into the vbox config GUI to manually set ports
02:10:58  <spronk>hard to explain, but i have the same difficulty reading i.e. ilii1lililliIiI1ili as i do reading the fn(a:A)->(A,A)->A syntax
02:11:24  <spronk>they all blur together or something
02:11:44  * therealkoopajoined
02:11:56  <yogurt_truck>familiarity
02:12:00  <yogurt_truck>that's all.
02:12:07  <spronk>maybe, but i'm still convinced there's cognitive science going on
02:12:10  <puddy>nexxy: what's weird tho is i got the python server working, w/ port forwarding
02:12:11  <yogurt_truck>I have difficulty reading korean, too.
02:12:18  <nexxy>puddy: interesting
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02:12:55  <Sorella>I have difficult reading Kanji.
02:12:56  * switzquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
02:13:02  <spronk>yogurt_truck: would you agree that romanised korean is a lot easier than hangul for a beginner?
02:13:05  <Sorella>Specially in tiny fonts
02:13:24  <spronk>(coming from a latin-based language)
02:13:50  <spronk>because it's more or less the same concept. obviously familiarity comes into play
02:13:51  <Sorella>spronk, more familiar, certainly. Easier, hard to tell.
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02:14:01  <Sorella>s/,/?/
02:14:12  <yogurt_truck>spronk: I don't agree with claims or make claims myself about things I'm not familiar with!
02:14:23  <nexxy>the real root of this problem
02:14:32  <nexxy>is that we're still using such antiquated human-computer interfaces
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02:15:00  <Sorella>Yes, I agree.
02:15:13  <nexxy>like I mean seriously, a box that projects light into our faces so we can use our eyes to decode
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02:15:20  <nexxy>how archaiac is that?
02:15:26  <puddy>brb rebooting since that always fixes things on windows
02:15:28  <Sly>nexxy: <3
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02:15:40  <spronk>nexxy: right on
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02:15:46  <yogurt_truck>clearly if a language is just like my native language except for one additional word, it's going to be "easier"!
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02:16:26  <Sorella>yogurt_truck, I actually had an easier time picking up English than Spanish, though.
02:16:38  <yogurt_truck>funnily enough, lambda calculus *is* the closest we have for a universal language
02:16:42  <Sorella>(In fact, I can never understand Spanish. Not even written Spanish :x)
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02:16:49  <yogurt_truck>typed* LC, that is
02:17:09  <Sorella>I thought it was Lojban
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02:17:24  <spronk>languages with alphabets i'm familiar with i can pick up a lot easier than those that don't
02:17:26  <yogurt_truck>given the, you know, fact that it's isomorphic with this little thing called... LOGIC!
02:17:26  <yogurt_truck>xD
02:17:42  <spronk>(based on my anecdotal experience with japanese german and french)
02:17:54  <yogurt_truck>Sorella: spanish is messy. but then all natural langs are
02:18:01  <Sorella>German is harder than Japanese, though.
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02:18:08  <spronk>most of the challenge in learning japanese is learning kanji
02:18:14  <spronk>Sorella: what's your native lang?
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02:18:23  <Sorella>But yeah, Kanji is definitely a pain
02:18:25  <Sorella>Portuguese
02:18:29  <spronk>interesting
02:18:47  <Sorella>Japanese is an easy language if you ignore Kanji though
02:18:58  <cariaso>"Error: $elem.perfectScrollbar is not a function." But this occurs inside a block of angular.module('perfect_scrollbar', []).directive('perfectScrollbar', … ; can anyone give me some idea of what I might be missing here.
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02:19:01  <spronk>its so uniform
02:19:08  * netjjoined
02:19:11  <spronk>well, except for counters as well
02:19:14  <spronk>so many counters :|
02:19:32  <Sorella>yogurt_truck, true.
02:19:58  <yogurt_truck>I know that a few weeks ago I verified that my level 3 Duolingo german level wasn't enough to know wtf the german sportscasters were yelling! D:
02:20:12  <spronk>who decided it was a good idea to have a counter for dogs, cats, and fish, that is different to a counter for cows\
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02:20:52  <Sorella>Language evolution
02:21:10  * cultherojoined
02:21:45  <spronk>mm...
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02:22:37  <spronk>yogurt_truck: can you explain "you get guarantees, such as e.g. `fun foo(a: A, f: A => B): B` only has 1 possible valid implementation" further?
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02:24:03  <spronk>is it simply that it must apply f to A? how do you know that's the only valid implementation though?
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02:25:03  <yogurt_truck>spronk: because of the "forall". A and B are *universally quantified*.
02:25:16  <yogurt_truck>spronk: so, can you return 42?
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02:25:27  <spronk>if it's a B?
02:25:36  <Sorella>spronk, but what is a B?
02:25:40  <yogurt_truck>you can't, 42 is an Int. The type is `B`, for *all* Bs
02:26:06  * therealkoopajoined
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02:26:21  <Sorella>Or "the type of B is something, except you don't know what that something is."
02:26:24  <spronk>but surely that function foo could do anything as long as it returns a B, right?
02:26:57  <yogurt_truck>spronk: are you talking about causing side-effects, etc?
02:27:04  <spronk>well, yes
02:27:13  <spronk>but also... foo(....) = new B()
02:27:15  <Sorella>spronk, yes, but consider that the only valid values it can use are `f` and `a`. Also, yogurt_truck is assuming a total functional langauge
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02:27:33  <yogurt_truck>spronk: `new B()`?
02:27:34  <Sorella>In a total functional language you can't do unbounded recursion, nor side-effects.
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02:27:47  <Sorella>(so all programs are guaranteed to terminate)
02:27:51  <yogurt_truck>spronk: there's no such type!
02:28:04  <spronk>ah i see what you mean
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02:28:29  <spronk>the implementation has no way to know how to create a B without using f
02:28:30  <yogurt_truck>if I call `f(42, x => x * x)` then implementation body `new B` wouldn't make sense
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02:28:36  <yogurt_truck>think about the future, and the kids!
02:28:42  <yogurt_truck>:'(
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02:28:58  <spronk>... or am i not on the right track?
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02:29:03  <Sorella>spronk, yes, precisely.
02:29:08  <yogurt_truck>spronk: that is exactly the right track
02:29:09  <Sorella>That's why it can only have one implementation.
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02:29:31  <spronk>well, i guess it could still have alternative implementations
02:29:40  <Sorella>(well, in a non-total language: `foo(...) = foo(...)` is also an implementation that type checks, albeit a silly one
02:29:59  <spronk>if you, say, have a hypothetical language where you can call a function that gives you a function given the specified type
02:30:01  <Sorella>In a total language you can't do that, because infinite recursion isn't possible
02:30:03  <yogurt_truck>Sorella: if you don't know what type B is going to be, you don't know how to create it, but you know that `f` can create it from an A, which you also can't create but have been passed it as an argument!
02:30:28  <spronk>i.e. foo(a: A, f: A->B): B = giveMeAFunction(A->B)(A)
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02:30:38  <Sorella>spronk, that would break parametricity. You can do that in Java through reflection.
02:30:38  * spronkdoesn't know whether there is such a thing?
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02:31:01  <Sorella>Parametricity is the property that gives you this guarantee that there can only be one implementation of that function
02:31:11  <puddy>nexxy i'm an idiot and figured it out.. should have listened on 0.0.0.0
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02:31:56  <spronk>hmm
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02:32:37  <spronk>so in a purely functional environment it's not posisble to use the type of an argument as an argument to something as i did just there?
02:32:49  <yogurt_truck>spronk: sure you can
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02:32:57  <Sorella>spronk, it's not about pure. It's about not having reflection
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02:33:03  <yogurt_truck>spronk: but that's not about FP
02:33:06  <Sorella>You can have reflection and be pure (Purr has reflection)
02:33:10  <spronk>hmm
02:33:32  <Sorella>But if you have reflection you can't have parametricity, which is the property we're talking about.
02:33:40  <spronk>so how does the not-using-f() above break parametricity?
02:33:50  <spronk>oh, so it's reflection that is breaking it
02:33:56  <yogurt_truck>yes
02:33:57  <Sorella>spronk, it breaks because you're inspecting the concrete values of A and B.
02:34:02  <Sorella>So, IOW, you're cheating
02:34:09  <spronk>riight
02:34:10  <spronk>i see
02:34:12  <yogurt_truck>having reflection mean you can expect literally anything from any function ever
02:34:21  <yogurt_truck>guarantees go to hell
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02:34:31  <yogurt_truck>means8
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02:34:42  <yogurt_truck>means**
02:34:46  <spronk>so assuming you are only allowed to be declarative, you can only have one implementation of that function
02:35:10  <spronk>hmm, no
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02:35:32  <Sorella>spronk, the requirements are: you can't have subtyping, you can't have reflection, you can't have side-effects, and you can't allow unbounded recursion (all programs should be guaranteed to terminate)
02:35:40  <spronk>right
02:35:48  * danielpquinnquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:35:52  <yogurt_truck>I don't use that term, and it's not about that either. Let's say assuming a type system that guarantees what the generic types express!
02:35:54  <Sorella>Idris, Agda, Epigram, and a few other languages fulfil all of that.
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02:36:18  <Sorella>Oh, you can't have `null` either.
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02:36:59  <Sorella>or rather, your types shouldn't be a disjunction between null and the type, as all types in Java are. Otherwise `foo(A a): A = null` would be a "valid" (it typechecks) implementation.
02:37:01  * ctorpquit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
02:37:23  <spronk>yep
02:37:25  * iAmerikanjoined
02:37:27  <spronk>so this is rank-1?
02:37:28  <yogurt_truck>anything type checks in stupid Java! xD
02:37:32  <yogurt_truck>spronk: no no
02:37:42  <yogurt_truck>spronk: wait, what's "this"?
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02:38:08  <yogurt_truck>we have only used rank-1 types in this convo, yes, if that's what you mean
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02:38:16  <spronk>fun(a:A)->(A,A): (a,a)..
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02:39:15  <yogurt_truck>yes, `(a: A): (A, A)` is using rank-1 types
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02:39:53  <yogurt_truck>actually, let's make it simpler
02:40:00  <yogurt_truck>using the id function
02:40:10  <yogurt_truck>`fun id(a: A): A = a`
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02:40:37  <yogurt_truck>spronk: ^ no need for explanation there, right?
02:40:50  <spronk>all clear
02:41:12  <yogurt_truck>because explaining the rank-2 types thing will require writing a couple of higher order functions that will try to use accepting id as param
02:41:13  <yogurt_truck>ok
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02:41:58  <yogurt_truck>now say you have `fun foo(a: A, f: A -> A): A = f(a)`
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02:42:18  <yogurt_truck>and you have that `foo(42, id) == 42`
02:42:35  <spronk>yep
02:42:42  <yogurt_truck>spronk: correct?
02:42:42  <yogurt_truck>ok
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02:43:09  <yogurt_truck>now say you want `foo` to take a B, as well, and use its `f` for both A and B
02:43:32  <yogurt_truck>e.g. `fun foo(a: A, b: B, f: A -> A): (A,B) = (f(a),f(b))`
02:43:51  <yogurt_truck>that definition has a type error
02:43:54  <spronk>yep
02:43:58  <yogurt_truck>do you see why?
02:44:08  <spronk>f doesn't know about B
02:44:14  <spronk>we
02:44:18  <spronk>er* can't accept a B
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02:44:51  <yogurt_truck>as described by foo's type, right?
02:44:56  <spronk>yep
02:45:00  <yogurt_truck>foo's saying f takes an A
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02:45:16  <spronk>but in reality id() would work with b
02:45:24  <spronk>B
02:45:26  <yogurt_truck>exactly
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02:45:52  <yogurt_truck>that's were rank-N types enter the picture
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02:46:34  <yogurt_truck>they allow you to specify that a type parameter of your generic function can be of more than one type, when the function is invoked
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02:47:07  <spronk>right
02:47:19  <yogurt_truck>this language we're using is made up, though
02:47:26  <spronk>i.e. when specifying the argument f to foo() ?
02:47:35  <yogurt_truck>but e.g. in haskell this is what the explicit `forall a.` annotations are for
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02:48:18  <yogurt_truck>spronk: no, right there in the type of foo
02:48:32  <spronk>oh sorry, that's what i meant
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02:50:08  <myndzi>so i get back from reading in more detail about functional languages and syntax and there's a whole scrollback to process :P
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02:50:13  * Eomarchanged nick to Davey
02:50:16  <myndzi>i have the tools to understand what's going on better though now :)
02:50:36  <spronk>so what would you say, foo(a:A, b:B, f: forall A, B as X: X->X) ?
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02:52:15  <yogurt_truck>spronk: kinda. rather `forall X` in your example
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02:52:39  <spronk>how do you relate it back to A and B>?
02:52:40  <yogurt_truck>spronk: see this neat little post about it http://sleepomeno.github.io/blog/2014/02/12/Explaining-Haskell-RankNTypes-for-all/
02:52:58  * rgljoined
02:53:10  <myndzi>one thing i'm still trying to figure out though from your imaginary language: `fun foo(a: A, b: B, f: A -> A): (A,B) = (f(a),f(b))` - nm, i think i get it. foo() describes the types of the arguments; the part after foo(): describes the type of the return value, and the part after the = describes the actual expression to be evaluated when you use foo(...)
02:53:13  <yogurt_truck>spronk: you don't need to, because clearly A and B should be type checkable for a function that takes *for all X* :D
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02:53:22  <sinclair|work>myndzi: hows your C#?
02:53:26  * nunofmnjoined
02:53:35  <myndzi>more like Cb
02:53:36  <myndzi>:P
02:53:44  <yogurt_truck>that'd be B
02:53:49  <myndzi>shhh
02:53:54  <sinclair|work>yogurt_truck: hows your C#?
02:53:56  <myndzi>the joke falls flat if you go at it like that
02:53:57  <myndzi>;)
02:54:05  * YoYquit (Quit: Leaving...)
02:54:07  <myndzi>plus it's valid notation!
02:54:19  * mmitchel_quit (Quit: Leaving...)
02:54:27  * gsdquit (Client Quit)
02:54:29  <yogurt_truck>(but I'll accept the enharmony)
02:54:30  * sinclair|workcould really use someone with a opinion on this reactor library
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02:54:36  <myndzi>i have played a Cb before, or equivalently marked note :)
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02:54:53  <myndzi>it's of type fuck -> this
02:54:54  <myndzi>:P
02:54:57  <spronk>C?
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02:55:07  * spronkdoesn't think his irc client is unicodey
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02:55:26  <myndzi>??
02:55:33  * toastynerdjoined
02:55:37  <myndzi>no, i literally typed capital C, lowercase b (C flat)
02:55:49  * spronktyped C (natural)
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02:55:55  <spronk>but i see C?
02:55:56  <myndzi>oh haha
02:56:00  <myndzi>i thought it was a question
02:56:02  <myndzi>yes, i got C? too
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02:56:25  <spronk>so, yogurt_truck, you can only use these with functions that are generic about their type inputs?
02:56:49  <spronk>i.e. if you had a function idOfOnlyNumbers(n: Number): Number
02:57:05  <spronk>you couldn't specify a: Int, b: Float, forall...
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02:57:36  <spronk>assuming in this hypothetical situation Int and Float are subtypes of Number
02:57:37  <yogurt_truck>spronk: you can mix generic with non-generic if that's what you mean
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02:57:54  <yogurt_truck>f(42, idOfOnlyNumbers) would type check our `foo` from earlier
02:58:12  <yogurt_truck>f("hello", idOfOnlyNumbers) wouldn't, as expected
02:58:19  <spronk>as in
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02:59:22  <spronk>foo(a: Int, b: Float, f: forall X: X->X): (Int, Float) = (f(a), f(b))
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02:59:36  <spronk>can't do that?
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03:00:08  <yogurt_truck>sureawhy not?
03:00:14  <spronk>or even if the return of that was (Number, Number)
03:00:14  <yogurt_truck>sure *
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03:00:26  <spronk>hmm
03:00:36  <spronk>how could it type check f
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03:01:01  <yogurt_truck>think of `f` being `id`
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03:01:17  <yogurt_truck>it would return the right type for each value
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03:01:30  <spronk>ah, i was meaning if you passed in something like idOfOnlyNumbers
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03:01:36  <yogurt_truck>what's the type of `(id(someInt), id(someFloat))`
03:01:38  <yogurt_truck>ah
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03:02:02  <spronk>i guess Number -> Number doesn't satisfy forall X: X->X
03:02:03  <spronk>?
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03:02:15  <yogurt_truck>it does
03:02:27  <yogurt_truck>the error is in (Int, Float) as return type
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03:02:39  <myndzi>it would want (Number, Number)
03:02:44  <OnAir>hi,guys.Im confusing about some codes.could someone help me?
03:02:59  <yogurt_truck>or (X, X)
03:03:07  <sffdsfddf>OnAir: do you really need to ask?
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03:03:18  <yogurt_truck>!code @ OnAir
03:03:19  <OnAir>http://codepen.io/colinshen/pen/Hglam here
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03:03:23  <spronk>so a compiler would check f's type def against a and b?
03:03:26  <myndzi>but if X wasn't a Number, the function wouldn't work?
03:03:27  <yogurt_truck>argh, this isn't ##js
03:03:35  <myndzi>har har :P
03:03:48  <spronk>i'm struggling to see how it could be type safe
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03:04:02  <myndzi> if(err return fn(err);
03:04:05  <myndzi>^ syntax error
03:04:07  <shadowcoder>I'm having a very bizarre problem (apologies if you saw this this morning)
03:04:09  <spronk>if(err return fn(err);
03:04:09  <myndzi>line 3
03:04:13  <spronk>ah, myndzi beat me to it
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03:04:30  * genericchanged nick to shanse
03:04:40  <myndzi>also User.get(ID,FN));
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03:04:45  <OnAir>sorry.i will change a little bit
03:04:55  <myndzi>basically that part doesn't make sense :P
03:05:00  <spronk>recommend getting an editor that will flash at you if syntax is invalid :)
03:05:15  <shadowcoder>In a very simple node.js app using net.createConnection, the onData doesn't fire reliably. I confirmed with Wireshark the server is sending the data, and node.js simply isn't receiving it. The only possibility I can think of is blocking somewhere, but haven't a clue how to track that down.
03:05:24  <shadowcoder>https://github.com/bobbybee/node-astron/blob/master/web2socket.js For full source if necessary
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03:05:47  <myndzi>shadowcoder: streams changed in 0.10, and there are a couple caveats that can result in streams not "flowing"
03:05:56  <shadowcoder>hmm?
03:06:11  <myndzi>see if http://nodejs.org/api/stream.html#stream_compatibility_with_older_node_versions applies
03:06:17  <OnAir>done, fresh...
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03:06:23  <myndzi>"In versions of node prior to v0.10, the incoming message data would be simply discarded. However, in Node v0.10 and beyond, the socket will remain paused forever."
03:06:26  <myndzi>in particular that bit
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03:06:39  <shadowcoder>ugh :p
03:06:46  <shadowcoder>lemme read this
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03:07:11  <myndzi>line 13 also missing a )
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03:07:19  <myndzi>line 4 still has an extra one
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03:07:22  <yogurt_truck>spronk: it's type safe because you can't compile ill-typed code
03:07:26  <myndzi>is the syntax error what you're asking about?
03:07:50  <OnAir>no
03:07:54  <shadowcoder>myndzi: How would that apply, bc I am using the data-event?
03:07:55  <OnAir>about the callback
03:07:57  <myndzi>dunno why the highlighting fails on line 12
03:08:02  <spronk>yogurt_truck: well its more how can the compiler know from the definition of foo that the function idOfOnlyNumber satisfies forall X X->X
03:08:20  <myndzi>shadowcoder: i don't know if it applies or not, but it matches your symptom and is a kind-of recent gotcha
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03:08:29  <myndzi>you'll have to read it and find out if it applies
03:08:34  <myndzi>also you can try just calling .resume on the socket
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03:09:00  <yogurt_truck>spronk: e.g. try `let foo :: Int -> Float -> (forall x.x -> x) -> (Int, Float); foo a b f = (f(a), f(b))` on the ghci REPL (all in one line, with a `let` because it's in the REPL)
03:09:01  <spronk>i probably don't know nearly enough about compiling and type checking to really understand the answer realistically :p
03:09:06  <shadowcoder>trying something weird which shouldn't affect anything
03:09:17  <shadowcoder>(but node is so weird it might)
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03:09:41  <myndzi>can you pack that much spaghetti int 15 lines? i'm impressed :P
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03:09:55  <myndzi>OnAir: it would help if you related what the problem is
03:10:00  <yogurt_truck>spronk: `idOfOnlyNumber` satisfies the X -> X part. The rank-2 `forall` thing is a concern of `foo`
03:10:03  <OnAir>i don't understand the function running process. i mean how can the functions can get the User object
03:10:18  * infynyxxjoined
03:10:20  <myndzi>very convolutedly
03:10:31  <shadowcoder>myndzi: added .resume, still having unreliable behavior :/
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03:10:44  <myndzi>unreliable implies it works sometimes?
03:10:50  <spronk>yogurt_truck: right, so without the forall it couldn't be type safe?
03:11:04  <OnAir>myndzi:its not the code problem...just dont understand those kind of callback.
03:11:10  <spronk>yogurt_truck: because you could pass in a String -> String
03:11:10  <shadowcoder>yes,
03:11:13  <shadowcoder>about 1/3 of time
03:11:13  <myndzi>OnAir: yeah, it's written very confusingly
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03:11:23  <myndzi>i recommend substituting functions for their callbacks to get a better visual
03:11:24  <yogurt_truck>spronk: it wouldn't even type check. wouldn't even get to put safety in risk.
03:11:33  <shadowcoder>sometimes receives 2 packets, sometimes 3, sometimes 4, sometimes the entire 5
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03:12:02  <myndzi>oh, that could also depend how you're reading it i guess?
03:12:14  <myndzi>if you're one-and-done you may not have received all the packets when the code is executing
03:12:18  <myndzi>paste code?
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03:12:30  <shadowcoder>myndzi: also, just tested with 0.9.9, issue still there
03:12:37  * therealkoopajoined
03:12:42  <shadowcoder>myndzi: https://github.com/bobbybee/node-astron/blob/master/web2socket.js
03:12:44  <spronk>i think i understand, yogurt_truck
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03:12:52  <shadowcoder>kind of long and boring, but you'll get the idea
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03:13:57  <myndzi>are you certain that 'd' contains a whole and complete packet, and/or that part of it isn't getting discarded silently if invalid?
03:14:10  <shadowcoder>for the first, yes
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03:14:18  <shadowcoder>for the second, how would I tell?
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03:14:52  <myndzi>you'd have to assume the library does it, which it probably does
03:15:02  <shadowcoder>Nope
03:15:04  <myndzi>but the first i don't see anything in the code to deal with an incomplete data packet
03:15:04  <shadowcoder>I wrote the library :p
03:15:11  <shadowcoder>oh, lemme push the latest version
03:15:19  <spronk>ty for taking time to explain yogurt_truck, Sorella
03:15:27  <myndzi>line 19 logs the parsed result of Packet(d)
03:15:33  <spronk>hmm, read literally that has a different meaning :D
03:15:34  <shadowcoder>git refresh
03:15:37  <shadowcoder>*hit
03:15:41  <myndzi>but the packet can be split up in networking
03:15:44  <spronk>punctuation*
03:15:49  <myndzi>and it's possible to receive only some of it in an event
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03:16:05  <shadowcoder>so I would need a buffer?
03:16:24  <myndzi>possibly
03:16:36  <myndzi>first i would see what you're actually parsing and ensure it is correct
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03:16:50  <myndzi>log d.toString() to see if it agrees with what you're seeing in wireshark
03:17:00  <myndzi>if so, the problem is in new packet and a lack of buffering
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03:17:03  <myndzi>if not, it lies elsewhere
03:17:07  <shadowcoder>sec
03:17:19  <yogurt_truck>spronk: no probs. Though, forget about the `idOfOnlyNumber` part, because I was never entirely sure about what you had in mind with it. So let's go through that again later some other time
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03:17:50  <spronk>haha, just trying to get my head around the limitations
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03:18:01  <shadowcoder>I feel like a complete and total idiot atm
03:18:06  <shadowcoder>sorts
03:18:12  <shadowcoder>*sorta
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03:18:20  <spronk>yogurt_truck: do you use a compiled to js language for node.js work, it doesn't sound like you'd be a pure-jser?
03:18:24  <myndzi>does that mean i guessed right? :P
03:18:33  <shadowcoder>I think so
03:18:41  <shadowcoder>There's more packets strung onto the buffer
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03:18:51  <myndzi>it's a common mistake, you think of packets as chunks of information
03:18:57  <myndzi>they're just not always the chunks you're looking for :)
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03:19:06  <shadowcoder>(and my code for checking for that was syntax error)
03:19:09  <myndzi>usually gets people trying to do http requests
03:19:13  <myndzi>but node handles that stuff for you
03:19:14  <shadowcoder>erm.. missing property
03:19:15  <myndzi>unlike mirc (lol)
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03:20:04  <shadowcoder>Now I have like 80 errors to fix go node
03:20:10  <myndzi>ha ha
03:20:16  <myndzi>have fun
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03:20:39  <shadowcoder>thanks for the help in destupidifying me :)
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03:23:52  <shadowcoder>(to be fiar, myndzi, it also created a bunch of new problems :p)
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03:28:30  <yogurt_truck>spronk: I still maintain plenty of vanilla JS on client and node to keep my mood grumpy and my hair whiter. Otherwise, for like, new projects where I get to choose tech, I go for haskell, purescript, elm, and similar players of the compile-to-js game
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03:30:15  <shadowcoder>haskell to js? ears perk up
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03:30:47  <sffdsfddf>no scala.js?
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03:31:08  <yogurt_truck>sffdsfddf: that'd be an obvious one, given that 80% of my server-side awfulness is written in Scala, but "hey, same language EVERYWHEARZ!" is a false economy trap I've learned not to fall into anymore
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03:31:34  <shadowcoder>hehe
03:31:40  <shadowcoder>node js is nothing like browser js
03:31:47  <shadowcoder>i've learned from experience, time and time again
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03:32:13  <sffdsfddf>yogurt_truck: it might be nice, even if it's different
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03:36:39  <spronk>heh
03:36:43  <yogurt_truck>sffdsfddf: I just have enough of Scala already, with almost all my server-side hell in it. So I prefer to go for something better for my compile-to-js adventures (where "something better" == "at least a more expressive and reliable type system", in my universe)
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03:36:54  <spronk>one of the main reasons we looked at node in the first place was same language
03:37:01  <spronk>hasn't eventuated at all
03:37:09  <sffdsfddf>eventuated?
03:37:25  <spronk>sharing zero code client/server
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03:38:05  <sffdsfddf>ah, eventutate means occur.
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03:38:15  <sffdsfddf>wth
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04:06:33  <stoned>I think I'm going to write an irc bot w/ a plugin structure and a usable API
04:06:38  <stoned>using node's irc lib
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04:06:55  <stoned>I'm bored and I need a bot and nothing else seems to be good b/c it's not mine.
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04:06:58  <stoned>:)
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04:10:34  <systemfault>:)
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04:12:39  <stoned>hey roger
04:12:41  <stoned>ltns
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04:12:43  <stoned>holy shit
04:12:54  <stoned>how've you been
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04:21:23  <systemfault>stoned: Great, you?
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04:22:42  <shadowcoder>myndzi: THANK YOU SO MUCH
04:23:02  <shadowcoder>hour later, bug is fixed after 3 (unproductive, MMO-filled) days!
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04:33:22  <stoned>systemfault, very well, thank you.
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04:33:39  <stoned>Just about to finish up some work, or maybe tomorrow, then start on this bot.
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04:33:54  <stoned>Need to start thinking about the structure and all that.
04:34:03  <stoned>design and application
04:34:56  <stoned>I've never written a bot before
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04:35:20  <stoned>I'm not even sure where to begin. I suppose I should start w/ the IRC d/client RFCs
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04:35:36  <stoned>Why the heck not...
04:35:43  <systemfault>stoned: The basics are ridiculously easy. Just use your “telnet” program and practice.
04:36:04  <stoned>there are better ways to get raw irc traffic
04:36:05  <stoned>:)
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05:09:29  <colin_>getUser : function(email,fn){User.find({email:email},function(err,user){fn(null,user);}); } fn is undefined. is that the scope problem?
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05:11:58  <systemfault>colin_: Depends how you actually call getUser
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05:15:00  <colin_>authentication : function(email,fn){ Users.getUser(email,function(err, user){ console.log(user) }); }
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05:16:11  <colin_>i didnt write the logic yet.just to see the data
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05:17:06  <systemfault>I don’t see anything wrong with your code. Is there a User and a Users object?
05:17:12  <systemfault>Or it’s a typo?
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05:18:28  <colin_>the Users is a object ,and define the getUser and authentication function. the User(User.find()) is a mongoose model object.
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05:19:40  <colin_>i think id better to post the code to codepen?can you see the codes?
05:19:43  <systemfault>Ah wait
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05:20:33  <systemfault>Nvm.. :/
05:20:41  <systemfault>Yeah, post your code somewhere
05:21:13  <colin_>http://codepen.io/colinshen/pen/bKzBf here
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05:21:52  <colin_>im just learning..how to use express and mongoose.
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05:24:04  <colin_><systemfault> i just add something . if you already open the site..please refresh.
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05:25:33  <systemfault>Why is like 45: user.authenticate and not Users.authenticate?
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05:26:14  <colin_>var user = require('../model/users');
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05:27:38  <systemfault>A bit misleading but ok :P
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05:27:59  <colin_>i dont know where is the problem
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05:28:34  <colin_>31 line . fn is undefined
05:28:52  <systemfault>It looks fine :/
05:29:04  * recyclequit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
05:29:04  * johnkevinmbascoquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
05:29:06  <systemfault>fn should be accessible
05:29:58  <systemfault>wtf :/
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05:30:12  * stonedis now playing: Artist: From Sorrow To Serenity Album: Antithesis EP Title: Dead Reign Genre: Djent
05:30:15  <stoned>oh
05:30:20  * ren_hoekquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
05:30:22  <stoned>So sorry, I was still in this window.
05:30:24  <stoned>My bad.
05:30:32  * chjjquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
05:30:35  <colin_>so the way i wrote fn ,and call the function is right? and did i use the callback correct?
05:30:57  * harethjoined
05:31:00  <stoned>hmm
05:31:01  <stoned>I wonder...
05:31:16  <stoned>how does one use external node libs in say Haxe
05:31:19  <systemfault>colin_: Yup
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05:31:42  * dobalinaquit (Quit: Quitting)
05:31:50  <colin_>oh,thanks. If the function is ok.i think i can find the error.
05:32:10  * caulagijoined
05:32:22  <stoned>hunh.
05:32:25  <stoned>npm haxe?
05:32:31  <stoned>That's... word.
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05:33:26  <colin_>what do you mean..
05:33:31  * danielpquinnjoined
05:33:44  <hareth>hello
05:34:00  * skiftquit (Remote host closed the connection)
05:34:13  <stoned>you can install/call/depend/ant from node to haxe
05:34:21  <stoned>and use haxe to generate node.js stuff
05:34:21  * _trevquit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
05:34:41  <stoned>but I wish to know whether I can use the irc package in haxe to produce node.js code
05:34:55  <stoned>or does that package have to be ported to haxe?
05:35:01  * johnkevi_quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
05:35:09  <stoned>Maybe this is a better question for #haxe
05:35:12  * sapiosexualjoined
05:35:21  <tapout>relatively newer to node.js, which IDE do ya'll use? webstorm?
05:35:38  <stoned>I am actually using a node.js editor
05:35:40  <stoned>:)
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05:35:45  <stoned>npm install slap
05:35:46  <tapout>which one?
05:35:48  <stoned>slap something.c
05:35:56  <stoned>or .js et.c
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05:37:06  <Gildarts>tapout: webstorm is good if you want an ide. I personally use it and sublime text more of the time.
05:37:08  <systemfault>tapout: webstorm is the best for JS
05:37:10  * chjjjoined
05:37:22  <Gildarts>most*
05:37:29  * hoobdeeblajoined
05:37:30  <stoned>I will look at webstorm
05:37:34  <stoned>is this by the *storm people?
05:37:35  * Alina-malinaquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:37:41  <stoned>it's bound to be quality.
05:37:46  <systemfault>stoned: Yeah.. The IntelliJ guys (Jetbrains)
05:37:50  * langdonjoined
05:37:53  <stoned>nice
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05:38:39  <stoned>man
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05:38:57  <stoned>I been doing so much server crap for a while and not any dev work so much, I feel out of touch w/ so much!
05:39:05  <stoned>I just am starting to get into node even...
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05:40:18  <stoned>I'm going to try their products
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05:40:42  <colin_>i dnot why the webstorm on my pc start slowly,but it is good after starting....i really want to have a mac pc-,-
05:40:50  * brianloveswordsquit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
05:40:56  <stoned>MAC pc is overrated imo.
05:40:57  * sudo_aptGetjoined
05:41:12  <stoned>The OS is good, but the Interface, I've NEVER liked.
05:41:19  * abishekquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
05:41:19  * CoderPuppyquit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
05:41:22  <colin_>but it is expensive in china
05:41:23  <stoned>Since the days of system 7
05:41:26  * sudo_aptGetquit (Remote host closed the connection)
05:41:32  <stoned>actually as far back as AppleII een
05:41:34  <stoned>even*
05:41:44  <stoned>I loved lemmings and other games so I got a Mac
05:41:47  * Gildartshighly recommends all of the JetBrains' products that he has used.
05:42:15  * rmgquit (Remote host closed the connection)
05:42:23  <stoned>I think I'm going to go w/ a real Unix.
05:42:25  <stoned>:)
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05:42:43  <colin_>im using linux mint now.
05:42:46  * patrickarltjoined
05:42:49  <colin_>looks good..
05:42:56  * sudo_aptGetjoined
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05:43:11  <sdaffdafaddf>I used it a long time ago
05:43:13  <stoned>an even more botched up distro based on a commercialized distro
05:43:18  <stoned>That's horrible. :)
05:43:21  * StephenA1joined
05:43:21  <sdaffdafaddf>Now I do Ubuntu
05:43:46  <colin_>i dont like linux...some soft can not use on it..
05:43:56  * [gmi]joined
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05:44:06  <Gildarts>Crunch
05:44:14  <Gildarts>Bah
05:44:17  * harrisonmquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
05:44:25  <Gildarts>CrunchBang is really nice
05:44:30  <sdaffdafaddf>I can barely play Euro Truck Simulator 2 on my linux box.
05:44:33  <stoned>Well. My gripe is mostly w/ the way the kernelspace and systemd and all this crapola I dunno
05:44:39  * seishunjoined
05:44:43  <stoned>I'm not too happy w/ Linux these days.
05:44:57  * Guest57908joined
05:45:10  <stoned>It stopped respecting the unix philosophy a while ago.
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05:45:19  <colin_>i really want to install osx86 on my pc.but my graphic card is not support yet..
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05:45:36  <sudo_aptGet>Hey guys I'm implementing a new feature of my npm module and I asking for some opinions.
05:45:42  <sudo_aptGet>To make something better
05:45:57  <colin_>and the bad new is someone told me ...this card will never get it support..
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05:47:55  <sudo_aptGet>Last feature I implemented was to make parallel request and the return is a promise. But for example, I made 3 requests in parallel and one of them trhowed an error, the promise is resolved any way with and object with 3 properties ( one for each request ) with 2 success and 1 error ( because the example ).
05:48:30  <sudo_aptGet>Now i'll implement a case where if have one error or more the promise is rejected going to error callback
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05:48:55  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Why don’t you leave that to the promise lib.
05:49:00  * why_awayjoined
05:49:14  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: There’s no reason for a http lib to have support for multiple requests.
05:49:15  <sudo_aptGet>To do this feature what you think it is better, create a new function that do that do that or pass trhogh param a flag?
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05:49:38  <sudo_aptGet>I made this because of necessity
05:49:49  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: If your request object returns a promise, you can make parallel requests with Promise.all for example..
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05:50:00  <sudo_aptGet>I needed the return of 3 services to make a object to render the view with dust js
05:50:06  * LeftWingquit (Remote host closed the connection)
05:50:12  <sudo_aptGet>yeah, but in parallel it is faster
05:50:23  <sudo_aptGet>better then make one request, wait to resolve, then make another
05:50:28  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Promise.all is going to do them in parallel.
05:50:31  <sudo_aptGet>in this case make 3 requests at the same time
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05:50:43  <sudo_aptGet>Not really
05:50:47  <systemfault>Yes really.
05:50:47  <ewrew>hey guys could someone please help me ?
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05:51:32  <sudo_aptGet>I already tested that to make sure
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05:51:40  <sdaffdafaddf>ewrew, do you really have to ask?
05:51:45  <ewrew>Is there a node.js that sends "coins" or points throw a website ?
05:51:51  <ewrew>code*
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05:51:59  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Retest again, I’m not inventing that to troll you.
05:53:09  <sudo_aptGet>Do you know any lib for node that make http requests and returns a promise?
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05:53:26  <sudo_aptGet>or you are telling me to use q for every request
05:53:29  <sudo_aptGet>?
05:53:35  <sudo_aptGet>each one*
05:53:42  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: I was using bluebird’s promisify function with request
05:53:49  * Silne30quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
05:54:20  <systemfault>Q has denodeify for that purpose if you prefer it
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05:54:36  <sudo_aptGet>thats what I made
05:54:41  <sudo_aptGet>i made a module to abstract that for me
05:54:47  <sudo_aptGet>but i used restler + q
05:54:49  * caulagiquit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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05:55:15  <sudo_aptGet>+ async to make parallel requests
05:55:36  <sudo_aptGet>q.all to resolve then into one parent promise
05:55:36  * hoobdeeblajoined
05:55:40  <sudo_aptGet>https://www.npmjs.org/package/restling
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05:55:50  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Ah, so your lib also supports classic callbacks?
05:55:57  <sudo_aptGet>No
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05:56:03  <ewrew>is there a plugin that allows users to send "coins" or points to each other ?
05:56:04  * trex005quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
05:56:10  <sudo_aptGet>every request returns a promise
05:56:23  * connrsquit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
05:56:39  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Then it’s really weird.
05:56:56  * rgljoined
05:57:01  <systemfault>parallelget is basically a call with Promise.all
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05:57:53  <systemfault>Or Promise.settle… depending how your handle failure
05:57:59  <konobi>anyone here have a spare OnePlus One invite they'd be willing to give me?
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05:58:59  <sudo_aptGet>Yeah, i made each request using async
05:59:07  <sudo_aptGet>and then Q to defer it
05:59:27  <sudo_aptGet>and put into the object map or in the array
05:59:31  * hoobdeeblaquit (Client Quit)
05:59:53  <systemfault>It doesn’t make sense to add async.js to your lib if it already uses promises…
06:00:07  <systemfault>Because both do the same thing… in a different way.
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06:01:12  <sudo_aptGet>I need to return the promise rather then use callback
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06:02:51  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Promise.all is the same as async.parallel…
06:02:55  * spydeeequit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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06:03:03  <systemfault>That’s where it’s really weird.
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06:03:46  <sudo_aptGet>actually q.all transforms an arrays of promise in ONE promise for all?
06:03:48  <sudo_aptGet>!
06:03:49  <sudo_aptGet>!
06:03:59  <sudo_aptGet>for the whole
06:04:02  * why_awayquit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
06:04:09  <sudo_aptGet>instead of I do one .then for each one
06:04:18  <sudo_aptGet>i only do one .then for the collection
06:04:18  <nexxy>and they say promises are an antipattern
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06:04:46  <sudo_aptGet>Indeed it is, node adopted the callback approach
06:04:47  * johnkevinmbascoquit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
06:04:56  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: q.all returns an array of resolved promises.
06:05:01  <sudo_aptGet>which I disagree for what I have studied for the years
06:05:09  <systemfault>nexxy: Not sure where you read that.
06:05:24  * Dude007quit (Remote host closed the connection)
06:05:25  <nexxy>systemfault: in this channel, all the time
06:05:28  * swapneshsjoined
06:05:29  <systemfault>nexxy: Promise and Futures are in every language now…
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06:06:09  <swapneshs>I am stuck with the callback usage for sending an email
06:06:11  <sudo_aptGet>Yeah systemfault but node adopted callback aproach, so promises are going against hte "default" paradigm
06:06:14  <swapneshs>http://stackoverflow.com/q/24926146/1594368
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06:06:17  <sudo_aptGet>thats why they say that
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06:07:11  <swapneshs>code is working fine when run via node filename but not when using in a erquest
06:07:15  <systemfault>nexxy: Promises are a bit more difficult to understand than callbacks… but don’t let the mediocrity of some people mislead you.
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06:07:28  <swapneshs>any help with the issue :)
06:07:32  <systemfault>nexxy: Promises are better, they’re composable, they make exceptions work again…
06:07:33  * connrsquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
06:07:45  <systemfault>nexxy: And they’re not going away, they’re being standardized
06:08:20  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: But seriously, you could get rid of async.js from your project… it makes it look bad.
06:08:49  <systemfault>Promises can do everything async does… and more… and cleaner.
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06:09:18  <sudo_aptGet>systemfault: q.all documentation
06:09:18  <sudo_aptGet>You can turn an array of promises into a promise for the whole, fulfilled array using all.
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06:09:31  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: What’s wrong with that?
06:09:43  * Vinnyceptrjoined
06:09:48  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: You’re going to get an array of resolved promises in your .then
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06:09:52  <nexxy>systemfault: I'm not so sure
06:10:06  <sudo_aptGet>yeah, An array of results
06:10:16  <sudo_aptGet>but for that i need an array of promises
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06:10:30  <sudo_aptGet>and for that I need make N http calls and transform the return into promises
06:10:39  <sudo_aptGet>for do that I used async
06:10:46  * heskewquit
06:10:49  <sudo_aptGet>to make it parallel instead of using a _.map
06:10:58  <sudo_aptGet>got it?
06:10:59  * meso_joined
06:11:00  <sudo_aptGet>:D
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06:11:39  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: No… your .get already returns a promise, right?
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06:12:08  <sudo_aptGet>yeah, I mean.
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06:12:30  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: So Q.all([restling.get(…), restling.get(…), restling.get(…)]).then(function(arrayOfResult) {}); is the same as your parallel get.
06:12:41  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: This is where I’m like… wtf.
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06:14:24  <sudo_aptGet>Yeah
06:14:26  <sudo_aptGet>that is it
06:14:39  <sudo_aptGet>but i have to wrap each .get into a function
06:15:02  <sudo_aptGet>Oh, I see
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06:15:18  <systemfault>Basically, if you have an array of url… you get fetch them in parallel by doing function parallelGet(arrayOfUrl) { return Q.all(arrayOfUrl.map(function(url) { return restling.get(url); }));}
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06:15:46  <sudo_aptGet>yeah, but here is the problem, i can pass a object instead of an array too
06:15:48  <systemfault>Doing it this way allows you to use .spread which is awesome
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06:16:23  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: I don’t know if Q has it but bluebird has .props for that purpose
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06:16:57  <sudo_aptGet>I didnt know bluebird
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06:17:40  <systemfault>Bluebird is the best. Incredibly fast, full-featured, you don’t need to end your promise chains with .done().. etc
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06:17:54  <systemfault>Q is a turtle as far as performance is concerned
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06:18:16  <systemfault>(Q was my favorite lib until I discovered bluebird)
06:18:23  <systemfault>Also… Blubird has better error messages
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06:21:55  <sudo_aptGet>systemfault: Promise.promisifyAll(require("mysql/lib/Connection"));
06:21:56  <sudo_aptGet>that is it?
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06:22:29  <sudo_aptGet>Promise.promisifyAll(require('restler'))
06:22:32  <sudo_aptGet>and that is done?
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06:22:45  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: I don’t know if that works for mysql/lib/Connection :P
06:22:46  <sudo_aptGet>whenever i use restler to make http calls the return is a promise/
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06:22:50  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Yeah for restler.
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06:23:09  <sudo_aptGet>( i took this example from bluebird github docs )
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06:23:30  <sudo_aptGet>ill test this right now hahha :D
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06:23:34  <sudo_aptGet>that is awesome
06:23:49  <systemfault>Yup :)
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06:25:29  <chovy>.
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06:28:32  <sudo_aptGet>systemfault: does not seems to work
06:28:32  <sudo_aptGet>restler.get('http://www.google.com').then(function(data){
06:28:32  <sudo_aptGet> ^
06:28:32  <sudo_aptGet>TypeError: Object #<Request> has no method 'then'
06:28:52  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: let me test it
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06:29:56  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Try to add an empty object for the option
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06:30:09  <sudo_aptGet>it is optional
06:30:10  <systemfault>restler.get('http://www.google.com', {}) instead of restler.get('http://www.google.com')
06:30:19  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Perhaps not for the promisified version
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06:30:50  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: The promisified version probably wants the last parameter to be the callback
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06:31:00  <sudo_aptGet>didnt work
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06:31:25  <sudo_aptGet>restler is based on events
06:31:45  <sudo_aptGet>restler.get().on('success', function(data){})
06:31:58  <sudo_aptGet>.on('error', function(err){})
06:32:03  <systemfault>Eww.
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06:32:12  <sudo_aptGet>. on timeout
06:32:25  <systemfault>Then you’ll have to write your own wrapper :/
06:32:32  <systemfault>It’s trivial… but still
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06:32:49  <sudo_aptGet>I likeed because give me a lot of error handlings and features
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06:33:48  <sudo_aptGet>encode, parsing, auth, timeout control, tokens, multipart requests
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06:34:13  <systemfault>Yeah, it’s just that it’s event-based… for no reason that I find strange
06:34:14  <sudo_aptGet>so I can still use that features with promises
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06:34:37  <sudo_aptGet>do you got the catch?
06:35:05  <systemfault>No, what catch?
06:37:07  <sudo_aptGet>To use restler features with promises
06:37:10  <sudo_aptGet>that is awesome
06:37:11  <sudo_aptGet>hahaha
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06:37:30  <systemfault>Give me a minute, I’ll write somethin
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06:42:38  <QF-MichaelK>trying to connect to my neo4j db with heroku as in this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_dJaxOeccU&t=200 some stuff has changed since, any ideas what I can do to get this to work?
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06:43:37  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: http://jsfiddle.net/USv7m/ ?
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06:43:54  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Then you could add cancellable promises for your timeout.. etc..
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06:46:57  <sudo_aptGet>systemfault: I see
06:47:29  <sudo_aptGet>But if i want to pass a object instead of an array like this {'google':{'url':'http://google.com'},
06:47:29  <sudo_aptGet> 'api':{'url':'http://some/rest/api'}}
06:47:42  <sudo_aptGet>I have to manipulate this
06:47:49  <sudo_aptGet>than convert into object again
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06:48:03  <systemfault>2 seconds.
06:48:05  <sudo_aptGet>with async
06:48:15  <sudo_aptGet>i can pass a object and it do it for me
06:48:26  <sinclair|work>sudo_aptGet: use debian linux by chance?
06:48:33  <sudo_aptGet>mac os
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06:49:00  <sudo_aptGet>but I'm a unix user for some time
06:49:01  <sudo_aptGet>;)
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06:51:21  <gildean>sudo_aptGet: something like this you mean: http://jsfiddle.net/USv7m/1/
06:51:37  <gildean>that might not be the best way to achieve that, but it should work
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06:53:27  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: http://jsfiddle.net/L8eF8/ ?
06:53:57  <sudo_aptGet>Yeah, that is how i want to use
06:53:58  <sudo_aptGet>parallelGet(urls)
06:53:58  <sudo_aptGet>.then(function(result) {
06:53:58  <sudo_aptGet> console.log(result.google, result.bing, result.duckDuckGo);
06:53:58  <sudo_aptGet>});
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06:54:29  <systemfault>The code I just gave you works… test it if you want
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06:55:52  <sudo_aptGet>let me see, i need read bluebird docs properly
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06:55:58  <sudo_aptGet>just a sec
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07:02:15  <sudo_aptGet>systemfault: but this is not parallel. look at this code
07:02:16  <sudo_aptGet>Object.keys(urls).reduce(function(acc, n) {
07:02:16  <sudo_aptGet> acc[n] = get(urls[n]);
07:02:16  <sudo_aptGet> return acc;
07:02:16  <sudo_aptGet> }, {});
07:02:25  <ashnur>pls stopit
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07:02:48  <sudo_aptGet>Oh i see
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07:03:25  <sudo_aptGet>it will not wait for the get is complete to proceed in the loop
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07:03:32  <thealphanerd>sudo_aptGet: a+ on name!
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07:04:33  <ashnur>pft
07:04:39  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: Exactly! the requests are fired at the same time(relatively), they’re non-blocking
07:05:06  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: So they’re all fired at once and .all is like a “join” when you think about it
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07:05:30  <systemfault>sudo_aptGet: To do it serially, you’d need Promise.reduce
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07:07:11  <sudo_aptGet>Given an array, or a promise of an array, which contains promises (or a mix of promises and values) return a promise that is fulfilled when all the items in the array are fulfilled.
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07:07:37  <sudo_aptGet>That is what i was supose to implement in my module
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07:08:18  <sudo_aptGet>ahh ok, it have the settle()
07:08:23  <sudo_aptGet>either
07:08:25  <sudo_aptGet>That is nice man
07:08:34  <sudo_aptGet>I proved your point
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07:08:42  <sudo_aptGet>i mean, you proved your point
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07:09:11  <sudo_aptGet>thank you SO much to share your knowledge
07:09:13  <sudo_aptGet>systemfault: :)
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07:10:18  <systemfault>:)
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07:10:22  <systemfault>You’re welcome
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07:11:27  <sudo_aptGet>Ill refactor to use bluebird and remove async from the project
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07:11:39  <systemfault>Win :)
07:11:42  <sudo_aptGet>o/
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07:52:05  <Industrial>Hi.
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07:55:28  <matrixdevuk>'ey guys
07:55:29  <matrixdevuk>Anyone here?
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07:55:57  <gildean>yes, hi
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07:57:44  <matrixdevuk>gildean: ever used nodejs irc?
07:57:54  <gildean>matrixdevuk: what do you mean?
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07:58:01  <matrixdevuk>the thing on github
07:58:03  <matrixdevuk>the library
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07:58:31  <gildean>matrixdevuk: you mean node-irc module?
07:58:38  <matrixdevuk>yes that
07:58:39  <gildean>if so, then yes i've used it
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07:58:49  <matrixdevuk>how would I detect if someone is a channel op?
07:59:10  * pmooneyquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
07:59:28  <nexxy>matrixdevuk: when you get results from the NAMES command
07:59:39  <matrixdevuk>how would I do that
07:59:41  <nexxy>matrixdevuk: they should be prefixed with their operator status (if any)
07:59:48  <matrixdevuk>really?
07:59:54  <nexxy>matrixdevuk: by issuing the NAMES command for a channel
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08:00:31  <matrixdevuk>OH
08:00:32  <matrixdevuk>I see!
08:00:41  <gildean>matrixdevuk: https://node-irc.readthedocs.org/en/latest/API.html#'names'
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08:01:26  <nexxy>there is a corresponding token that is sent when you register with the server
08:01:32  <nexxy>that will tell you which status symbols to expect
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08:01:43  <sinclair|work>hey nexxy
08:01:48  <nexxy>(but a lot of people just assume things like @%.)
08:01:50  <nexxy>hi sinclair|work
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08:02:53  <matrixdevuk>gildean: how would I use that?
08:03:02  <matrixdevuk>Client.names?
08:03:12  <matrixdevuk>Client.names("#abc")
08:03:12  <matrixdevuk>?
08:04:01  <nexxy>:sinisalo.freenode.net 005 testinglol CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=eIbq,k,flj,CFLMPQScgimnprstz CHANLIMIT=#:120 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bqeI:100 MODES=4 NETWORK=freenode KNOCK STATUSMSG=@+ CALLERID=g :are supported by this server
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08:04:15  <nexxy>the 005 message from the server which you get after registering
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08:04:26  <nexxy>will send you a string that contains PREFIX=...
08:04:37  <nexxy>you should use that to parse what to expect from the prefixes on NAMES results
08:04:42  <gildean>matrixdevuk: you need to listen to the 'names' event, which gets the names-object in it's callback
08:04:58  <matrixdevuk>gildean: how?
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08:05:02  <matrixdevuk>I'm quite new to node
08:05:13  <matrixdevuk>I'm trying my hardest here to understand
08:05:26  <matrixdevuk>do I use .on?
08:05:41  <matrixdevuk>like Client.on('names', function(channel, nick){});
08:05:43  <gildean>matrixdevuk: client.on('names', function (channel, names) { console.log(names); });
08:05:47  <matrixdevuk>OMG
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08:05:49  <matrixdevuk>I DID IT!
08:05:53  <nexxy>^5
08:05:58  <ome>Hahaha, If you feel like the word Cloud is throw around too often, this is for you: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cloud-to-butt-plus/apmlngnhgbnjpajelfkmabhkfapgnoai.
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08:07:14  <matrixdevuk>Thank you so much guys
08:07:17  <matrixdevuk>it works
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08:51:57  <MegaGM>of what? bunch of a question signs?
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08:52:16  <MegaGM>uhm, mistaken window
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09:07:01  <duckchat>someone try and hit nodejs.org please. taking forever to load
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09:08:09  <ljharb>loads instantly for me
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09:09:18  <duckchat>strange. it is not my connection. i can't hit google, youtube, etc. nodejs.org taking 2mins to load.
09:09:35  <gildean>duckchat: works fine here
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09:10:02  <duckchat>thanks all
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09:13:56  <atatek>hi
09:14:22  <atatek>i'm running node-grunt-casperjs under windows
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09:14:36  <atatek>and getting Fatal error: spawn ENOENT
09:14:58  <atatek>on linux the stuff works like charm
09:15:09  <atatek>what could be the problem?
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09:24:06  <sdaffdafaddf>Is this how you shim things with requirejs? http://bpaste.net/show/493851/ my jquery.ui-contextmenu still can't find the jquery object
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09:36:33  <matrixdevuk>gildean: you there?
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09:36:44  <gildean>yes
09:36:52  <matrixdevuk>OK, I need more nodeirc help
09:36:53  <matrixdevuk>https://node-irc.readthedocs.org/en/latest/API.html#irc.colors.wrap
09:36:54  <jezi22>Is there a way to profile what part of the code is using so much CPU?
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09:37:12  <matrixdevuk>gildean: does that allow me to use colours in my messages in IRC, if so — how would I implement it?
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09:38:50  <gildean>matrixdevuk: probably? i've never used that (colours in irc are usually frowned upon), but i'd guess something like: var coloredText = irc.colors.wrap('foo', 'magenta');
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09:39:03  <matrixdevuk>ill try that
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09:39:08  <gildean>matrixdevuk: and then you'd just send the coloredText
09:39:18  <matrixdevuk>um
09:39:22  <matrixdevuk>ok
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09:42:04  <matrixdevuk>gildean: you were close, you got foo and magenta mixed up though
09:42:06  <matrixdevuk>but all is well
09:42:14  <matrixdevuk>Thank you
09:43:22  <jezi22>are profilers just reads speed? not cpu usage?
09:43:48  <gildean>matrixdevuk: i was just checking if you were awake :P
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09:43:56  <gildean>(not really)
09:44:19  <matrixdevuk>gildean: im almost dead, 1 hour and a bit until I've been awake 24 hours!
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09:45:07  <gildean>matrixdevuk: i'd recommend sleeping
09:45:12  <matrixdevuk>nah
09:45:15  <matrixdevuk>too mainstream for me
09:45:35  <duckchat>what is the longest you stayed up??
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09:45:53  <matrixdevuk>1 week 1 day
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09:46:03  <matrixdevuk>I was programming... a lot
09:46:14  <duckchat>8 days?
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09:46:45  <matrixdevuk>ye
09:46:49  <matrixdevuk>it's not good
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09:46:54  <matrixdevuk>but meh
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09:47:00  <matrixdevuk>I had a good sleep after it lol
09:47:07  <duckchat>i'll bet
09:47:10  <matrixdevuk>slept for like 15 hours
09:47:11  <matrixdevuk>haha
09:47:17  <blur3d>what’s node like with OS X Yosemite? Are there any major issues? I’ve found that some npm modules wont install
09:47:21  <duckchat>the most I went was 78 hours.
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09:50:10  <gildean>i once stayed awake for around 72h, slept for 23h after that
09:50:36  <matrixdevuk>lol
09:50:38  <matrixdevuk>amatures
09:50:38  <matrixdevuk>xD
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09:50:58  <gildean>which was pretty weird, i went to bed at 4 in the afternoon, woke up the next day at 3 and was totally disoriented because the clock seemed to have gone backwards
09:51:21  <gildean>i first thought it was 3 at night, but then i looked outside and it was day
09:51:21  <duckchat>lol
09:51:28  <gildean>then i didn't know what to think
09:51:36  <duckchat>been there.
09:52:07  <duckchat>actually, i've come to believe that i'm on a 36 hour clock.
09:52:40  <duckchat>hard to stay on a sched that is in sync with the rest of the world.
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10:13:22  <staar2>Whats the best way to watch project outdated packages ?
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10:16:17  <GreenJello>staar2, you want to know if you have outdated packages? npm outdated
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10:30:11  <matrixdevuk>gildean: you there, again?
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10:35:21  <gildean>matrixdevuk: yes, i never quit, but i might be afk
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10:35:34  <matrixdevuk>gildean: how do I get someone's hostmask with node irc?
10:35:38  <matrixdevuk>to hostmask ban em
10:35:47  <gildean>matrixdevuk: i think you need to do a whois on them
10:36:38  <GreenJello>matrixdevuk, you can keep track of host names when they join
10:36:53  <matrixdevuk>meh, ill leave it for now then
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10:56:00  <matrixdevuk>Hey guys
10:56:04  <matrixdevuk>If I have this:
10:56:15  <matrixdevuk>var people = ["someone", "someone_else"];
10:56:35  <matrixdevuk>how could I make it so an if statement checks if "blacksheep" is there?
10:56:39  <matrixdevuk>without it erroring
10:56:40  <matrixdevuk>I tried
10:56:57  <matrixdevuk>if (people['blacksheep'] == null) { return false; }
10:57:00  <matrixdevuk>but that isn't working
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10:59:49  <Zimdale>I think it would be undefined
10:59:50  <Zimdale>not null
11:00:05  <Zimdale>if(people['blacksheep'] === undefined) { return false; }
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11:00:59  <Zimdale>oh wait
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11:01:28  <Zimdale>I think you would have to loop through the array to check
11:01:38  <gildean>if (people.indexOf('blacksheep') > -1) console.log('found it');
11:01:44  <Zimdale>or that
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11:01:51  <Zimdale>as long as you are not in IE
11:02:23  <staar2>Whats the best way to watch project outdated packages, get the change log with links ?
11:02:25  <Zimdale>well IE 8 and below
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11:03:00  <gildean>Zimdale: considering this is the node.js channel, i wouldn't think < ie9 is a problem
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11:04:04  <aakash>matrixdevuk: if ( “blacksheep” in people ) { … }
11:04:10  * MachineXpart
11:04:35  <matrixdevuk>ok
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11:05:06  <blur3d>(def people ["a" "b"])
11:05:12  <blur3d>(if (get people "blacksheep") (println "found") (println "missing"))
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11:07:06  <Zimdale>Would hope not gildean but it's good to know either way
11:07:42  <Zimdale>blur3d, it sounds like you have a lisp
11:07:46  <Zimdale>*bandumpish*
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11:08:08  <blur3d>yeah, well clojurescript atm
11:08:21  <gildean>aakash: that's not the same tho', iirc 'in' will also look in the possible prototypes while indexOf will only check the array itself
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11:10:25  <aakash>yeah, indexOf would be the best
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11:19:32  <bberry>Zimdale: yesterday, you were recommending handlebars to me for server side templating, right?
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11:20:07  <Zimdale>yeah
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11:20:23  <bberry>That would replace angular.js as well i assume. I'm not sure if itd work well given angular uses the {{ and }} syntax as well
11:20:34  <Zimdale>no
11:20:44  <Zimdale>ahh
11:20:46  <Zimdale>yeah no sure
11:20:54  <Zimdale>have never used it along side angular
11:20:58  <bberry>gotcha
11:21:11  <bberry>id be worried it wuldnt work too well XD
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11:24:56  <Zimdale>Shoudln't you pull data in via ajax if you use angluar?
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11:27:34  <icebox>Zimdale: you can change the templating symbols in angular: $interpolateProvider.startSymbol('{[{').endSymbol('}]}');
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11:28:03  <icebox>Zimdale: https://docs.angularjs.org/api/ng/provider/$interpolateProvider
11:28:37  <icebox>Zimdale: ops... I think it was for bberry
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11:28:42  <bberry>haha thats cool
11:28:45  <bberry>looks interesting
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11:29:42  <Zimdale>Figured there would be some way around it
11:29:44  <bberry>icebox: think itd get too confusing with all these mixed brackets in my html?
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11:29:57  <bberry>itd be fun to nest them
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11:30:10  <Zimdale>instead of brackets use $! !$ or soemthing
11:30:15  <bberry>yeah
11:30:29  <Zimdale>I just haven't uesd angular in months
11:30:35  <Zimdale>and when I did use it, it wasn't extensive
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11:30:37  <bberry>i might use backbone + react too
11:30:40  <icebox>or <% ... %>
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11:31:08  <bberry>i have the freedom to switch aroudn to whatever framework i want right now, because my project is in its beginning phases
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11:31:19  <bberry>heck, im still in the process of switching from express js to hapi
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11:31:35  <Zimdale>huzzah hapi!
11:31:42  * Zimdalehigh fives bberry
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11:31:50  <bberry>haha
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11:33:15  <Zimdale>What kidn of project are you doing bberry?
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11:34:58  <bberry>well. my company sells little devices that go on trucks. they send information to our server, that the customer wants to see (coordinates, engine/transmission info, truck-specific info, etc). So we'll have a map with the location of all their trucks and display various information about it
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11:35:36  <staar2>bberry, why such decision to switch from express to hapi ?
11:35:53  <Zimdale>ah neat
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11:37:02  <bberry>staar2: wanted to give handlebars a try. plus it seems more battle tested.
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11:37:34  <staar2>hapi is more battle tested ?
11:37:45  <mtharrison>I think Express is pretty battle tested
11:38:02  <Zimdale>Hapi is a little harder to do horribly wrong
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11:38:23  <mtharrison>Zimdale: Can you offer an example?
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11:38:26  <bberry>yeah i dont disagree. obviously theyre both competitive
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11:38:44  <Zimdale>I cannot mtharrison
11:38:48  <bberry>mostly, i figured id try it out, see how i like it
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11:39:03  <Zimdale>I switched to hapi pretty quickly because I really enjoyed the structure of it
11:39:10  <icebox>About express and hapi there is a post in npm blog
11:39:22  <staar2>well if you give a strong argument why hapi is better then express, then ill consider moving my future projects to hapi
11:39:34  <test_>Hey does anybody have an answer to this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24931366/understanding-nodejs-threading
11:39:47  <mtharrison>I’m just interested because I hear that quite a bit but never seen concrete examples of _why_ it’s better. So I’m left thinking it’s because it’s new(er)
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11:40:21  <Zimdale>I think "better" is the wrong word mtharrison
11:40:30  <Zimdale>in the long run it is just different
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11:40:35  <bberry>this one? http://blog.npmjs.org/post/88024339405/nearing-practical-maintainability
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11:41:42  <bberry>they both seem pretty similar in what can be accomplished
11:41:55  <Zimdale>In my experience with it, it's significantly easier and faster to get a server up andr unning using handlebars adn hapi than express
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11:41:58  <mtharrison>I’m writing a blog post on express/hapi at the moment and aside from some concepts (packs/plugins vs middlwares), they pretty similar.
11:42:09  <bberry>yeah
11:42:39  <mtharrison>The (req, res, next) interface is very elegant in express I find. Sometimes the ordering can screw you over though.
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11:42:51  <Zimdale>and since a LOT of my projects are proof of concepts for work, jumping through hoops wtih express.
11:43:03  <Zimdale>is kind of a pain over hapi
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11:43:26  <bberry>yeah
11:43:27  * test_part
11:43:30  <Zimdale>when I can just var server = hapi.Server(8080); server.route(); server.start();
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11:43:44  <bberry>i actually dont even know how hapi does the next() stuff
11:43:52  <bberry>is there even middleware in hapi?
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11:44:05  <mtharrison>I do like the fact that the HTTP verb is a configuration option in the Hapi routing vs the actual API (.get, .post etc) in express. Means it’s a but more elegant dynamically generating routes
11:44:14  <bberry>^^^^^
11:44:15  <mtharrison>No, bberry there’s plugins
11:44:28  <bberry>mtharrison, gotcha. and those are different than packs?
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11:45:06  <mtharrison>A pack is like a pack of wolves (servers)! You can groups a bunch of servers basically under a namespace (pack) and make them start in unison, afaik
11:45:16  <bberry>gotcha
11:45:32  <mtharrison>A plugin is something you register with a server or a pack of servers, so more like middleware
11:45:35  <bberry>and they can communicate with one another?
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11:45:49  <bberry>(the multiple servers, that is)
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11:46:00  <bberry>thatd be really useful for my project
11:46:16  <mtharrison>Well the could be in the same module with access to the same state.
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11:46:30  <bberry>gotcha
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11:46:53  <bberry>so youd just load two servers in one module, and have that be their communication interface
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11:47:35  <mtharrison>I’ve not used packs really so I’m no expert. Have a look: http://hapijs.com/tutorials/packs
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11:47:42  <bberry>cool
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11:48:43  <mtharrison>If I were needing to communicate between the different handlers I would probably use some kind of event emitter pattern
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11:48:57  <bberry>oh right. duh XD
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11:49:13  <bberry>even better with Futures!
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11:50:57  <staar2>doese hapi have some sesison support also ?
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11:53:27  <Zimdale>yar adds session support
11:53:34  <Zimdale>it's a hapi plugin put out by walmartlabs
11:53:58  <Zimdale>https://github.com/spumko/yar
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12:53:39  <aiham>Anyone with experience with sequelize?
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12:53:55  <aiham>I have two models, with a one-to-many relationship
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12:54:18  <aiham>Trying to create an object and set its association
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12:55:01  <aiham>I’m able to do it but it takes up 2 SQL statements. I’m trying to see if i can do it in just 1.
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12:55:58  <aiham>Currently I have: Model1.create({}).success(function(model1) {model1.setModel2(model2).success() {}; });
12:56:04  <aiham>I wonder if I can do something like this:
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12:56:33  <aiham>Model1.create({}).setModel2(model2).success(function (model1) {});
12:56:34  <aiham>?
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12:57:19  <aiham>So set the association and get it to be included in the INSERT statement rather than cause a second UPDATE statement.
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13:03:12  <ashnur>did someone work with ndarrays? i am having trouble understanding/visualizing in my mind how strides work
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13:15:45  <bangbang>ping pang!
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13:16:06  <bangbang>Has anyone ever experienced this error before, with Restangular and Mongo
13:16:11  <bangbang>Error: Response for getList SHOULD be an array and not an object or something else
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13:23:08  <Foad_NH>Hi, can you help me with this: http://pastebin.com/fDKk9fUt
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13:26:11  <Foad_NH>It looks like something wrong with my python version in node-gyp I have both python3 and python2. But how can I specify python version fore only node-gyp? I don't want to change main version to 2.
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13:34:47  <raoul>Foad_NH, npm install --python=`which python2` or to do so persistently: npm set python `which python2` (assuming the binary is called python2)
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13:35:48  <Foad_NH>raoul: I did this: npm -g config set python python2.7 looks like it is working ;-) thank you
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13:46:49  <apipkin>Is there an app/service that can monitor my node processes to give me feedback on usage?
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13:47:02  <apipkin>(memory, cpu, etc)
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13:47:46  <baudehlo>About 100 zillion of them.
13:47:52  <baudehlo>Google "monitoring"
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13:50:11  <apipkin>Ah! Monitoring. Thanks baudehlo
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13:50:54  <baudehlo>StrongLoop has some node specific stuff for it which will monitor GC and the event loop.
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13:51:06  <baudehlo>I think newrelic does too.
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14:14:06  <texinwien>are there any guides to npm-publish etiquette?
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14:14:20  <texinwien>How soon is too soon to publish a new package?
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14:14:39  <myndzi>express body-parser doesn't appear to be behaving with json, any thoughts?
14:14:47  <myndzi>i'm doing app.use(bodyParser.json())
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14:14:52  <myndzi>and posting with application/json as the header
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14:15:01  <myndzi>not receiving any errors, req.body is just {}
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14:18:41  <myndzi>fffuuu.
14:18:45  <myndzi>i typeod 'application'
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