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00:58:14  <SubStack>oh goodness, that essay isaacs linked was talking about gamification in the 80s
00:58:23  <SubStack>+20 hipster cred
00:58:29  <Raynos>isaacs: when should i use engines?
00:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 28]
00:59:05  <SubStack>that's why I like http://npmtop.com/
00:59:08  <SubStack>gamify open source
00:59:58  <Raynos>man
01:00:50  <Raynos>that makes me regret publishing modules under two names
01:00:54  <SubStack>dominictarr would get a kick out of this essay
01:01:01  <Raynos>I need to go back and normalize them all into one name and get back into the top40 :P
01:01:05  <SubStack>haha do it
01:01:18  <SubStack>so my crazy idea now
01:01:27  <SubStack>is how to gamify deployment
01:01:30  <SubStack>holy fucksticks
01:01:43  <Raynos>get +1 internets for every deploy?
01:01:50  <SubStack>yeah pretty much
01:02:13  <SubStack>well you get points for checking in code that works
01:02:18  <SubStack>and you lose points for fucking shit up
01:02:29  <SubStack>or at least, don't gain any points
01:02:48  <Raynos>also +1 point for every mention of SubStack in your commit messages
01:02:57  <Raynos>like "fixed this code because Substack complained"
01:03:06  <Raynos>or "fixed this code because I'm Substack"
01:03:24  <Raynos>heck screw the points for checking in core / losing points for broken stuff
01:03:34  <Raynos>just give points for every reference to substack in the commit log
01:03:42  <SubStack>and you could get points for factoring out code into modules
01:03:46  <SubStack>and releasing pieces as open source
01:03:55  <SubStack>this could be downright subversive
01:03:57  <Raynos>thats an actual good idea
01:03:59  <SubStack>in the best possible way
01:04:07  <Raynos>promoting modularity and OSS is the best
01:04:21  <SubStack>ok so
01:04:29  <SubStack>all of this is going into my talk
01:04:34  <SubStack>oh fuck, this is perfect actually
01:05:21  <Raynos>is using bouncy in production stupid?
01:05:33  <SubStack>probably
01:05:37  <SubStack>people are doing it already though
01:05:42  <SubStack>there's like this one bug I haven't fixed
01:05:47  <Raynos>my server keeps crashing :D
01:05:51  <SubStack>yeah I get that too
01:05:53  <Raynos>because bouncy just falls over
01:06:06  <SubStack>I should require('long-stack-traces') on it
01:06:10  <SubStack>to fix that bug
01:06:21  <SubStack>so I can figure out what the hell is going on
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01:47:00  <SubStack>isaacs: I was just thinking how to gameify software development
01:47:12  <isaacs>SubStack: I am doing this.
01:47:23  <SubStack>we already have http://npmtop.com/
01:47:27  <isaacs>SubStack: like, basically, this is my whole mission in life. this is why i wrote a package manager.
01:47:30  <isaacs>was to do this exact task.
01:47:31  <SubStack>a good start but more of this
01:47:35  <isaacs>YES!
01:47:40  <isaacs>gamification is very deadly work, though.
01:47:44  <isaacs>it must be done carefully.
01:47:47  <SubStack>indeed
01:47:54  <isaacs>fun and games are not trifles!
01:48:02  <isaacs>fun and games lead people to spend all their time on things.
01:48:09  <isaacs>you must make sure that it's what you want them to spend their time on
01:48:29  <SubStack>maybe that is the real danger of AGI
01:48:36  <isaacs>put another way, if you are playing a game where the goal is to make up games that get others to have as much fun as possible, winning becomes very important
01:48:42  <isaacs>there are others' lives at stake!
01:48:43  <SubStack>that the machines will make games so addictive that we will be powerless to stop them
01:49:00  <SubStack>also busy
01:49:04  <isaacs>yes
01:49:05  <isaacs>very busy
01:51:02  <SubStack>also I want to do a choose your own adventure comic that teaches programming
01:51:15  <SubStack>in the style of mspaintadventures
01:51:33  <SubStack>which is itself amazingly addictive
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01:53:13  <SubStack>that shit is DANGEROUS though
01:53:27  <isaacs>heh
01:53:37  <SubStack>because once you start you can't stop until you've read tens of thousands of pages of it
01:53:39  <isaacs>i'm looking forward to SubStack's Poignant Guide to Node.js
01:54:00  <SubStack>that book is hardly addictive at all
01:54:03  <isaacs>yeah
01:54:08  <isaacs>well, ruby is pretty shit compared to node.
01:54:31  <isaacs>and your crazy is way more interesting than _why's
01:55:02  <SubStack>I've put a lot of effort into cultivating it
01:55:18  <isaacs>yes
01:55:32  <isaacs>and we all know your name, so you'll never escapeit.
01:56:36  <SubStack>it's true
01:57:35  <SubStack>so one way I plan on accelerating the crazy
01:57:49  <SubStack>is to keep doing crazier and crazier talks
01:57:58  <SubStack>never giving the same talk twice ever
01:58:36  <SubStack>I already have quite a few notes written down for the next one
01:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 9]
02:01:11  <SubStack>isaacs: I also suspect that in a post-work society, people will on average be far crazier and more interesting
02:01:35  <isaacs>SubStack: the only thing keeping most people boring is that they do boring work
02:01:37  <SubStack>because when you don't have institutions telling you how to act or else, you've got to make it up as you go along
02:01:52  <isaacs>there will always be spectrums of craziness, though
02:02:07  <isaacs>take, just for a relatively localized example, you, me, and mikeal
02:02:30  <isaacs>we're not far from one another mind-wise, but there's certainly differences.
02:03:02  <isaacs>and we're all relatively fun-seeking and post-work-ish in our occupations and our relationships with money.
02:03:44  <isaacs>the real way to make our society smarter, faster, and more crazy, is to get rid of the *schools*
02:03:54  <isaacs>not the education, of course.
02:04:02  <isaacs>but especially middle and high schools.
02:04:23  <isaacs>the real damaging aspects of school start around 4th or 5th grade, and get especially bad by 11th or 12th
02:04:43  <isaacs>kids aren't allowed to start being interesting until most of them are hopelessly unrecoverably broken.
02:04:57  <SubStack>much of the function of middle and high school is to keep children out of the way so adults can go away to work jobs
02:05:08  <SubStack>well especially younger grades
02:05:19  <isaacs>then they get to college and are still completely infantilized, so they just get drunk and catch stds
02:05:24  <SubStack>where children are less capable of engineering their environment to satisfy their needs
02:05:31  <isaacs>sure
02:05:42  <SubStack>but at around 6 or 7 kids are plenty capable of mostly looking after themselves
02:05:50  <SubStack>maybe 5 actually
02:05:55  <isaacs>younger kids need care, and parents ought not to shoulder the whole burden full-time if there are others willing to help out.
02:06:03  <SubStack>that's about the age when they start making their own lunches
02:06:25  <isaacs>and there's some research indicating that it's useful for kids to go socialize with each other, and have to interact with other adults in structured ways.
02:06:31  <isaacs>but the benefits fall off quick.
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02:07:02  <isaacs>i mean, 12 year olds ought to be taking shit apart and hacking and reading philosophy and putting on concerts.
02:07:31  <isaacs>but their parents are too tired from doing pointless mind-numbing jobs to coach them properly, and the rest of society is set up to break them.
02:07:43  <isaacs>WONT SOMEBODY *PLEASE* THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?
02:07:43  <LOUDBOT>IT'S SIDEWAYS AND I CAN SEE MAYBE A LAPTOP AND POSSIBLE HE'S EMERGING FROM SOME...
02:08:08  <isaacs>it was on the news this mroning
02:08:23  <devaholic>isaacs: by that age kids are influencing each other to be anti-intellectual
02:08:31  <isaacs>devaholic: indeed.
02:08:33  <devaholic>at least, in murrica
02:09:04  <SubStack>that is mostly a product of how schools impose boring rote concepts
02:09:05  <isaacs>devaholic: children are infantilized, and self-sabotage.
02:09:23  <SubStack>instead of educational self-direction
02:09:47  <devaholic>bring back apprenticeships starting at 14-15
02:10:29  <SubStack>one really excellent things schools can offer is expensive machinery
02:10:32  <SubStack>lathes and welding equipment
02:12:12  <SubStack>just had an idea
02:12:19  <isaacs>SubStack: schools can also offer a place for knowledgible experts to play at teaching.
02:12:29  <SubStack>schools could be set up more like quests
02:12:39  <isaacs>SubStack: i can attest that doing this is fun. i spend a LOT of my time willingly teaching people node and npm and javascript.
02:12:51  <SubStack>yes!
02:12:53  <isaacs>i've written many many thousands of words on the subject, i dont' even know how many
02:13:01  <SubStack>I like teaching
02:13:23  <devaholic>but to what end i guess is the question, there is no competing with all the abundance of large corporations
02:13:26  <isaacs>i mean, ostensibly Joyent pays me for this, but it's not like they're gonna give a shit if i spend less time on the mailing list, and more time working on code. they'd probably prefer it, actually.
02:14:00  <isaacs>(actually bryan has mentioned that he's in favor of a lot of community diplomacy type stuff)
02:14:08  <isaacs>but he's also a very forward-thinking boss.
02:14:21  <isaacs>so, i dont' think that a post-work society is necessarily post-corporation.
02:14:28  <devaholic>mm i like teaching people about javascript, this past year ive been teaching some node
02:14:39  <isaacs>the Black essay is definitely not 100% right, i dont' think
02:15:15  <isaacs>nor is it necessarily post-money
02:15:37  <isaacs>at least, until there's enough automated value-creation that our basic needs actually are all just taken care of, wall-E style.
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02:16:24  <SubStack>humans will always need money to account for scarce commodities
02:16:30  <devaholic>isaacs: heh, but it wont happen, because the powers that be always seem to take away just enough from the masses to make many of them struggle
02:16:37  <SubStack>and even just to prevent wanton wasting behavior
02:16:55  <SubStack>people might just enjoy lighting valuable things on fire
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02:17:32  <SubStack>devaholic: that's just an assertion
02:17:40  <SubStack>_how_ do "the powers that be" do this?
02:17:48  <SubStack>is the more important line of inquiry
02:18:00  <devaholic>its not that it happens by some explicit decision
02:18:09  <SubStack>it doesn't need to
02:18:17  <isaacs>all government is group fantasy.
02:18:19  <devaholic>but it happens, by some effect of the silent hand of the market
02:18:22  <isaacs>i'm not saying it's bad, necessarily.
02:18:29  <isaacs>some group fantasies are REALLY nice.
02:18:39  <devaholic>invisible*
02:18:41  <isaacs>like, "You're not allowed to shoot your guns at isaacs or else bad things will happeen to you"
02:18:51  <isaacs>that's a good fantasy
02:18:57  <SubStack>that's equivalent to saying it happens by magic
02:19:17  <isaacs>SubStack: well, not quite.
02:19:18  <SubStack>semantic stopsigns!
02:19:34  <devaholic>im not sure its possible to deduce the real cause
02:19:47  <isaacs>it's the equivalent of saying that it happens as an emergent property of all the individuals each acting in their own interest according to the rules set up.
02:19:56  <isaacs>devaholic: the point is, though, those rules can be changed, as they are in fact fantasies.
02:20:11  <isaacs>(and, yes, i guess it is a semantic stopsign, as the word "emergent" is as well.)
02:20:13  <SubStack>or just ignored
02:20:23  <SubStack>most fantasies can be ignored as the situation warrants
02:20:28  <isaacs>SubStack: a lot of group delusions are good to not ignore.
02:20:42  <isaacs>"Pants must be worn in public"
02:20:51  <isaacs>"No hitting"
02:21:13  <isaacs>i mean, *some* emergent properties of shared illusions are really kind of nice.
02:21:15  <isaacs>at least, i like them.
02:21:44  <SubStack>those are more expectations than illusions
02:22:01  <devaholic>everyone could eat, there is plenty of food, but kraft isnt going to make sure everyone is fed and people starve because they want more money and capitalism pits them against companies who do the same thing as them so they just cant
02:22:19  <SubStack>devaholic: it's worse than that
02:22:25  <SubStack>assume that kraft was a non-profit
02:22:35  <SubStack>and decided to distribute food equally among the population
02:23:22  <devaholic>if all the companies worked like open source, then there would be some mutual benefit of would-be competitors feeding the hungry
02:24:02  <SubStack>open source works in a capitalistic context because it's not zero-sum
02:24:24  <SubStack>scarce resources act more like zero-sum commodities
02:24:28  <SubStack>knowledge is different
02:25:06  <devaholic>yea
02:25:58  <SubStack>until we can turn resource-intensive production into largely knowledge-based activities, we still have that problem
02:26:04  <SubStack>but we don't even need to wait for that to happen
02:26:06  <isaacs>for better or worse, the capitalist money machine is a pretty effective way to get people to come up with lots of clever resource-generating activities
02:26:46  <SubStack>yeah I don't have a problem with capitalism as such
02:27:15  <SubStack>so long as the externalities are internalized as costs or imposed through taxation
02:27:59  <SubStack>but work as we know it needs to die
02:29:05  <SubStack>I think basic income guarantees would go a long way towards starting to kill it
02:29:48  <SubStack>that would put a lower-bound on the shittiness level that a job can be
02:31:34  <SubStack>and it would afford people who want to pursue their own interests a basic guarantee of food and shelter
02:32:12  <SubStack>although ideally I would like to see that sort of income guarantee happen without government
02:32:51  <SubStack>if only because it might actually happen in the US that way
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02:40:00  <SubStack>isaacs: another thing that struck me about that essay
02:40:22  <SubStack>"Discipline consists of the totality of totalitarian controls at the workplace -- surveillance, rotework, imposed work tempos, production quotas, punching -in and -out, etc."
02:40:46  <SubStack>big-A Agile is all about that stuff
02:41:02  <SubStack>and kanban or whatever the totalitarian flavor of the month is
02:41:25  <SubStack>especially imposed tempos and surveillance
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02:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 4]
03:03:06  <SubStack>jesusabdullah: hahaha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yluchvyUzvU#t=23m
03:03:11  <SubStack>YOU'RE FAMOUS NOW
03:03:11  <LOUDBOT>I DEMAND TO KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TRYING TO DO
03:05:45  <jesusabdullah>SubStack: word
03:24:30  <SubStack>isaacs: so I was also thinking
03:24:49  <SubStack>the direction of fleet+seaport+all that devops noise
03:24:55  <SubStack>should be building a game out of it
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04:58:14  <SubStack>bwahaha
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05:19:36  <isaacs>SubStack: interesting.
05:19:48  <isaacs>SubStack: i kinda thought that's what we were already doing
05:29:08  * isaacsis writing his anarchy talk on twitter.
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06:16:28  <SubStack>https://github.com/substack/tracer-bullet
06:17:55  <SubStack>it's pretty much just this https://github.com/substack/tracer-bullet/blob/master/bin/command.js
06:20:27  <SubStack>once domains land in whatever version of node I happen to be using I'll use those too
06:46:15  <isaacs>SubStack: tracer bullet is a bit weird.
06:46:24  <isaacs>SubStack: it does violate require.main somewhat
06:46:31  <isaacs>SubStack: but i guess that's kinda ok
06:46:38  <SubStack>what is require.main anyhow?
06:48:03  <isaacs>SubStack: if (require.main === module) { you did 'node this file.js' }
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08:13:44  <SubStack>!!! https://github.com/substack/node-charm/pull/9
08:13:53  <SubStack>256 color mode upgrade
08:14:05  <SubStack>I had no idea such things were possible.
08:14:13  <SubStack>pulling this right away
08:19:42  <isaacs>SubStack: yeah! but it's weird.
08:20:10  <isaacs>SubStack: the colors are not in any sort of sane order. the first 16 are the standard system colors, then the rest are like the standard r,g,b, but with each r/g/b going from 0 to 5
08:20:25  <isaacs>SubStack: so 5,5,5 would be like #fff
08:22:40  <isaacs>SubStack: then another part ofthe range is all greyscale from white to black
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08:31:19  <SubStack>yes
08:31:41  <SubStack>I shall write another module to compute the nearest terminal color from an rgb value
08:35:18  <SubStack>hooray http://www.frexx.de/xterm-256-notes/
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08:37:40  <SubStack>ok so
08:37:44  <SubStack>this is pretty much amazing
08:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 9]
09:00:22  <guybrush>SubStack: recon is like upnode just for tcp?
09:05:30  <SubStack>recon just re-establishes the connection when it goes down
09:05:37  <guybrush>and does buffer
09:05:59  <SubStack>yes
09:06:02  <guybrush>what i want to say
09:06:22  <guybrush>it would be better to write one reconmodule which will be used by dnode
09:06:25  <guybrush>like
09:06:53  <guybrush>a recon-module where you can enable buffer with optin
09:07:11  <guybrush>and also support tls/unix-sockets
09:08:08  <SubStack>just use upnode
09:08:54  <guybrush>right :D
09:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 17]
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10:34:25  <Raynos>isaacs: Is it invalid to abuse require.extensions to have something like `require("foo.dust")` automatically map my template file into a function ?
10:42:46  <SubStack>everything is permitted
10:43:35  <Raynos>well yes. But is it sensible
10:43:47  <Raynos>It's permitted that I develop applications using towerJS or meteor
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11:40:58  <SubStack>https://github.com/substack/node-x256
11:41:06  <SubStack>now I can look up those pesky colors
11:42:45  <Raynos>o/
11:42:59  <SubStack>\o
11:45:58  <SubStack>so now I need a module that can read image data for each pixel
11:50:05  <SubStack>222 repos now
11:50:07  <SubStack>on github
11:54:28  <guybrush>SubStack: node-canvas can read image-data and you can use html canvas-api
11:54:55  <SubStack>excellent
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12:20:27  <Raynos>how do I get the abs path of a relative path in node?
12:21:03  <SubStack>path.resolve()
12:21:28  <SubStack>> require('path').resolve('/foo/bar', '../baz')
12:21:28  <SubStack>'/foo/baz'
12:21:34  <Raynos>coolio
12:22:55  <Raynos>I've my library encoded absolute paths of your code in client-side code would that be rage?
12:23:12  <Raynos>I want a UUID for a file, I think absolute path is pretty good :P
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13:14:20  <SubStack>bwahahahaha
13:55:29  <SubStack>http://substack.net/images/screenshots/picture_tube_robot_avatar.png
13:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 21]
14:04:53  <SubStack>https://github.com/substack/picture-tube
14:09:46  <SubStack>transparent values seem to mess it up a bit
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14:38:37  <guybrush>nice
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17:22:03  <isaacs>SubStack: https://github.com/substack/picture-tube is awesome
17:22:11  <isaacs>SubStack: afaict, useless. but awesomely so!
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21:41:46  <SubStack>hey neat, picture-tube is trending https://github.com/explore
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23:58:36  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 95]