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01:58:08  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
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02:14:38  <maxogden>soliciting feedback on this! http://callbackhell.com/ open github issues please
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02:36:37  <isaacs>maxogden: take advantage of hoisting, so that your named function declarations don't have to come *before* they're used!
02:36:57  <isaacs>foo.onblerg = blerg;\nfunction blerg () { ... }
02:37:11  <isaacs>that also lets you take multiple paths to get somewhere!
02:37:12  * isaacsgisting
02:37:18  <devaholic>isaacs: crockford says then you can reference the function within the function
02:37:21  <devaholic>iirc
02:38:37  <devaholic>var foo = function () { foo.thing = 1 } vs function foo () { this.thing = 1 /* isnt the same */ }
02:39:28  <devaholic>not that its all that useful� i usually use named functions
02:41:13  <isaacs>maxogden: https://gist.github.com/3102355
02:42:07  <devaholic>redis-stream on HN http://news.ycombinator.com/newest
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03:28:22  <chapel>isaacs: thats how I do my code
03:28:49  <chapel>wish I could get jshint to ignore function calls being used before defined :)
03:29:45  <chapel>isaacs: anyways, its a very clean way to do callback based control flow while avoiding callback hell :)
03:58:36  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
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04:42:51  <maxogden>vargleValidargle ftw
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05:58:38  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
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07:59:09  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
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08:21:10  <devaholic>SubStack: in [email protected] is it no longer possible to pass an instance with a _handle to listen
08:23:00  <SubStack>an instance?
08:23:07  <SubStack>of a webserver?
08:23:24  <SubStack>that is by design
08:23:34  <SubStack>listen() is somewhat deprecated anyhow
08:23:39  <SubStack>use .pipe()
08:26:47  <devaholic>before you could pass anything with a _handle, http or net
08:27:01  <devaholic>ok
08:27:06  <devaholic>coo
08:27:40  <SubStack>var d = dnode(); d.pipe(net.connect(...).pipe(d)
08:27:59  <SubStack>net.createServer(function (stream) { var d = dnode(); d.pipe(stream).pipe(d) })
08:30:24  <devaholic>blargh, pipe doesnt work easily with http
08:32:47  <dominictarr>devaholic, you just have to go req.pipe(dnode).pipe(res)
08:40:57  <SubStack>devaholic: https://github.com/substack/dnode#dnode-in-the-browser
08:42:50  <devaholic>mm, i just tried to swap it out in an app and i get a bunch of event listener warns
08:44:24  <devaholic>oh, maybe i need to call dnode() for each request
08:46:24  <SubStack>yes
08:58:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
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09:54:07  <chapel>devaholic: you can pipe your new redis lib
09:54:15  <chapel>rpc redis :)
09:58:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
09:59:36  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
10:10:10  <dominictarr>this is halorious
10:10:16  <dominictarr>RMS: "I do not eat breakfast. Please do not ask me any questions about
10:10:17  <dominictarr>what I will do breakfast. Please just do not bring it up."
10:10:31  <dominictarr>from richard stallman, the owners manual
10:10:32  <dominictarr>I do not eat breakfast. Please do not ask me any questions about
10:10:32  <dominictarr>what I will do breakfast. Please just do not bring it up.
10:10:45  <dominictarr>also, he likes parrots.
10:11:01  <dominictarr>but please do not buy a parrot just a surprise for him.
10:15:10  * zz_shykeschanged nick to shykes
10:15:22  <SubStack>but if you happen to already have a parrot
10:15:23  <SubStack>well then
10:16:50  <dominictarr>he'll be very happy.
10:17:32  <dominictarr>best to make a friend with a parrot person, so when you have RMS come do a talk, he can stay with that friend.
10:18:07  <dominictarr>oh man, we need a meme of strange RMS demands.
10:18:18  <dominictarr>he'd never notice since he only uses ssh.
10:20:02  * shykeschanged nick to zz_shykes
10:23:08  <SubStack>in other news I am rather enamoured with this idea of mounting webapps through a service registry and http proxy
10:23:24  <SubStack>so you can split up your webapps into lots of tiny processes
10:25:12  <SubStack>haha maybe I'll call it Mountie
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10:32:50  <dominictarr>SubStack, I've been thinking about this a lot recently.
10:33:08  <dominictarr>in particular about doing it in a self-healing peer to peer style.
10:34:04  <dominictarr>I belive that this is somewhat how amazon do it. reading between the lines in the dynamo paper.
10:34:46  <dominictarr>they have like a whole cluster of servers for like, one feature like user reviews.
10:34:52  <dominictarr>or your shopping cart.
10:35:02  <SubStack>yes!
10:36:08  <dominictarr>I'm thinking we need to get past the idea of "commands"
10:36:38  <dominictarr>instead just tell the network, "hello, I now wish for N instances of X service"
10:36:54  <SubStack>http://github.com/substack/zygote
10:37:09  <SubStack>that's what zygote is about
10:37:12  <dominictarr>and then the nodes which a most able, spontaniously start instances, of their own volition.
10:38:14  <dominictarr>zygote is an app server?
10:38:50  <SubStack>it's a worker thing
10:39:02  <SubStack>you connect up workers and they talk to the seaport hub
10:39:13  <SubStack>and then you can tell the workers how much work need to be done
10:39:22  <SubStack>and the workers decide among themselves how to distribute the work
10:39:39  <dominictarr>how do they communicate?
10:41:59  <SubStack>over dnode
10:45:34  <dominictarr>via a hub, or as a star, or gossip ?
10:45:42  <dominictarr>what is the topology?
10:46:55  <SubStack>you start a seaport hub firstly
10:47:07  <SubStack>and the workers register with seaport
10:47:29  <SubStack>and then the command line tool to distribute the plan just queries the seaport hub and contacts each of the workers individually
10:47:56  <SubStack>I've now got some code to replicate seaport hubs too
10:48:03  <SubStack>http://github.com/substack/node-pier
10:49:12  <dominictarr>I saw that
10:49:40  <dominictarr>ohh, so you tell the zygotes what to do directly
10:49:48  <SubStack>yep
10:50:07  <SubStack>well not exactly
10:50:19  <SubStack>the client just distributes the plan to all the zygote workers
10:50:27  <SubStack>the zygote workers use the plan to figure out what to do
10:50:46  <SubStack>and they can intelligently respond to changes in the network topology since every node has the complete plan
10:50:57  <SubStack>and the algorithms to determine how work gets distributed are deterministic
10:51:34  <dominictarr>oh, so they can all figure out who should be running what.
10:51:40  <SubStack>yep
10:51:57  <SubStack>without communicating
10:52:17  <dominictarr>and if a zygote dies, they'll know who should start that one.
10:52:24  <SubStack>yep
10:52:30  <dominictarr>ah, cool.
10:54:19  <dominictarr>so they must know about the other zygotes.
10:54:30  <SubStack>not neessarily!
10:54:39  <SubStack>seaport handles that part
10:54:41  <SubStack>indirectly
10:54:56  <dominictarr>but they must know that there are other zygotes
10:55:03  <SubStack>yes
10:55:23  <dominictarr>I'm guessing marx decideds who does what?
10:55:28  <SubStack>yep
10:55:54  <SubStack>the problem with marx is that it could be more efficient about minimizing changes to the network
10:56:04  <dominictarr>like if another node starts?
10:56:06  <SubStack>it's fine for setting up the initial workload
10:56:13  <SubStack>yeah or if a node dies
10:56:24  <SubStack>it just runs the same algorithm again with different inputs
10:56:33  <dominictarr>SubStack, how do you decide to name a project "$X" or "node-$X" ?
10:56:35  <SubStack>instead of trying to minimize the amount of changes
10:57:05  <SubStack>there's nothing especially consistent about that
10:57:24  <SubStack>I guess if something will have a command-line component I'm more likely to just give it "$X"
10:57:26  <dominictarr>yeah, that could cause problems during spikes.
10:58:44  <SubStack>started a project, node-engels
10:58:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
10:59:21  <SubStack>like node-marx but with rolling updates for minimal changes
11:01:24  <SubStack>so basically I've been trying to build everything that it takes to build a scalable distributed system piece-wise
11:02:05  <SubStack>it's frustrating because the people who have this problem are mostly not in a good position to release small open source components
11:02:59  <SubStack>either big companies who introduce legal impediments and friction to open source releases which increases the release size
11:03:14  <devaholic>marx having leadership problems because workers die� ha
11:03:33  <SubStack>or mostly just companies that consider this kind of stuff their secret sauce or else too tied to their particular infrastructure to be releasable as a separate modular component
11:04:05  <SubStack>it's so wasteful
11:04:56  <dominictarr>I think companies should look at open source as a recruiting thing, partially.
11:05:11  <dominictarr>this is something that nodejitsu really gets right
11:05:37  <SubStack>partly
11:05:56  <SubStack>but I think it's much more useful as a way of keeping down technical debt
11:06:43  <SubStack>when you release reusable components, you've got to remove all the incidental implementation details
11:06:58  <SubStack>and it's like you can delete all that code from your application
11:07:09  <dominictarr>but also, open source is about human-human relationships.
11:07:23  <SubStack>hah true
11:07:38  <dominictarr>if you have a good opensource presense, you'll suck good developers out of shitty companies and into your company.
11:07:43  <SubStack>I get so much value out of people contributing back to my projects
11:08:11  <SubStack>I don't even need to pay anybody it's awesome
11:08:31  <SubStack>people just fix things
11:08:53  <dominictarr>and show you whats important.
11:08:58  <SubStack>I try to do likewise for modules that I use too
11:09:03  <SubStack>everybody wins
11:09:44  <dominictarr>open source is a gift economy, but weirdly set inside a commercial one.
11:10:08  <SubStack>yes and there's a lot of impedence mismatch
11:10:20  <dominictarr>I guess I could put all your modules together and make testling2 and sell it for half the price
11:10:29  <SubStack>who pays for work that benefits everybody equally?
11:10:58  <dominictarr>but I don't think the marketing angle is very good.
11:11:35  <SubStack>we're still figuring how to to position testling properly
11:11:41  <dominictarr>because I wouldn't be solving a new problem.
11:11:50  <SubStack>I think with a few more small realiability improvements it won't matter so much
11:12:22  <dominictarr>one thing you might want is an enterprise option where they can install it on their own servers.
11:12:32  <dominictarr>enterprise in paranoid about that.
11:14:00  <SubStack>completely pathological behavior
11:14:14  <SubStack>enterprises not acting in their own financial self interest
11:14:45  <dominictarr>still, it may be in your financial self interest to indulge them.
11:16:10  <SubStack>it's not really something we can do
11:16:35  <SubStack>it's something that companies with plenty of employees can do
11:16:39  <SubStack>it's very labor intensive
11:16:54  <dominictarr>to deploy a testling cluster?
11:17:01  <SubStack>yes
11:17:39  <dominictarr>it needn't be, with a peer to peer application server network.
11:17:42  <SubStack>it's even worse than most companies who can throw dozens of developers at a deployment like that because we've got to tweak the fuck out the vms and the browser installs
11:17:57  <dominictarr>oh.
11:18:21  <dominictarr>browsers.
11:18:27  <SubStack>this kind of thing doesn't even work in heterogeneous deployment environments without massive personel investment
11:22:18  <dominictarr>oh, so it's the sort of thing where you'd need to at the very least supply a VM image with the browser installations in it.
11:22:31  <devaholic>I do not enterprise deployment. Please do not ask me any questions about what I will do deployment. Please just do not bring it up.
11:23:07  <dominictarr>lol
11:23:15  <devaholic>carry the meme
11:23:32  <devaholic>hehe
11:24:50  <dominictarr>okay, I think this has gotta be put on a picture of RMS, with text like on lolcats
11:25:00  <dominictarr>lolrms.com !
11:26:53  <dominictarr>maybe this one http://www.lemis.com/grog/Photos/20100916/big/rms-meets-open-sauce-detail.jpeg
11:32:32  <dominictarr>damn, looking for a photo of him looking grumpy. guess I need to have him stay at my house, then be like "guess what richard? I got you a surprise... PARROT!"
11:32:50  <devaholic>^ I do not do mustard. Please do not ask me any questions about what I will do mustard. Please just do not bring it up.
11:34:29  <dominictarr>I'd click [like] on that one
11:36:44  <dominictarr>this one is good, http://linuxformat.co.uk/blog/wp-content/tshirt.jpg
11:37:10  <dominictarr>because it'd piss him off that it says "linux" and not "GNU/Linux"
11:39:28  <devaholic>GNUs not unix, it's linux!
11:40:18  <SubStack>gnu/linux is completely silly
11:40:33  <SubStack>most of the value on a linux system is not affiliated with gnu
11:41:04  <dominictarr>this is quite good https://github.com/CrypticSwarm/js-matcher
11:41:09  <SubStack>why not call it gnu/x11/perl/python/ruby/node/linux
11:41:12  <dominictarr>it's like who event cares.
11:41:42  <dominictarr>like the Lennon/McCartney
11:42:13  <dominictarr>apparently Paul was pissed that it wasn't McCartney/Lennon
11:43:07  <dominictarr>which is way harder to say
11:45:05  <devaholic>have you come across a streaming json validator?
11:45:55  <dominictarr>what do you mean?
11:46:13  <dominictarr>validation as in checking that it parses?
11:46:21  <dominictarr>or that it has the right properties?
11:47:06  <devaholic>hmm, both would be useful
11:50:00  <dominictarr>use https://github.com/dominictarr/JSONStream
11:52:16  <devaholic>its partly there
11:52:36  <dominictarr>the question, is what should you do when it's invalid?
11:53:20  <dominictarr>error, write back a message, accept some stuff?
11:53:33  <dominictarr>all depends on usecase.
11:54:34  <devaholic>maybe the user part is a function that you have to provide, that takes a key/val/error or something, and you can decide what to do
11:55:12  <devaholic>emit the error on the stream, pass on the key but strip the value, pass a different key/val to mark an error, etc
11:56:11  <devaholic>it would also give a chance to map vals to other validation methods by key
11:57:49  <dominictarr>but what are you validating?
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11:59:47  <devaholic>similar to what is in the example for JSONStream I guess
12:00:26  <devaholic>any kind of streaming json, it would be nice to just be able to drop values an ddo various things to objects from different sources
12:01:27  <devaholic>having it work from a fairly normal json schema would be nice
12:02:35  <dominictarr>what do you think of this https://github.com/dominictarr/it-is#has
12:06:32  <devaholic>heh, the diff is pretty neat
12:07:09  <devaholic>seems handy
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12:13:37  <dominictarr>it can be awkward on large objects.
12:13:47  <dominictarr>typesetting objects is hard.
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13:47:42  <dominictarr>wow, so I think a cambodian guy just gave me the freemason handshake
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14:00:06  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
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15:40:24  <dominictarr>hij1nx, you there?
15:40:54  <isaacs>maxogden: have you ever written a streaming parser thingie for couchdb logs?
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17:21:46  <maxogden>isaacs: ahahaha no
17:21:51  <maxogden>isaacs: jasonsmith probably has
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17:22:06  <maxogden>isaacs: wait do you mean the erlang term logs or the http _logs
17:22:09  <isaacs>maxogden: no, it's on his todo list
17:22:21  <isaacs>maxogden: i mean the stuff like [Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:23:07 GMT] [info] [<0.124.0>] - - GET /registry/ 200
17:22:36  <maxogden>yea no :(
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22:22:10  <isaacs>maxogden: http://maxeatinginplaces.tumblr.com/post/27129909299/max-eating-in-the-npm-registry-with-the-packages
22:22:56  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Encoders down:
22:23:27  <chapel>that would be great if you actually made that page render like that
22:25:38  <maxogden>isaacs: excellent
22:27:24  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Encoders down:
22:31:47  <tanepiper>i like that max eating site
22:41:01  <chapel>we need a mad fat cat site for isaacs cat
22:45:53  <isaacs>aristotlethefatcat.tumblr.com
22:46:00  <isaacs>somebody make that
22:46:23  <isaacs>if i do it, it's just another person posting pictures of their cat, which is lame.
22:46:52  <isaacs>like if mikeal was @FatMikeal or if maxogden was behind maxeatinginplaces
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22:58:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
23:00:41  <maxogden>i pretty much post a lot of photos of other peoples cats already
23:00:49  <maxogden>including aristotle
23:02:24  <maxogden>parody account idea:
23:02:26  <maxogden>https://twitter.com/ikealiving
23:02:37  <maxogden>https://twitter.com/mikealiving
23:02:48  <maxogden>it would jsut make fun of the paleo diet and foodie culture
23:03:09  <maxogden>but use the same graphic design and narrative style as the ikealiving account
23:05:05  <maxogden>mikeal: link is wrong on twitter, took me to 2011.
23:05:10  <maxogden>mikeal: instead of http://2012.nodeconf.com/theatre/rick_waldron.html
23:07:40  <mikeal>does that work yet?
23:07:44  <mikeal>i'm waiting for DNS cache to die
23:07:52  <mikeal>i fucked it up the first time
23:08:31  <mikeal>i'm gonna wait an hour and then repost
23:08:50  <tanepiper>dns is annoying
23:09:25  <mikeal>maxogden: the coffee jar cozy is the best thing ever
23:09:32  <mikeal>i use it everyday
23:15:52  <chapel>lol: "It feels like flirting with the future of development tools, where the idea of stopping an application to compile will be as obsolete as manually managing memory allocation or keeping track of the registries on a CPU." http://softwarecalamity.blogspot.ca/2012/07/restful-mvc-with-twist.html
23:20:04  * mikealquit (Quit: Leaving.)
23:20:56  * zz_shykeschanged nick to shykes
23:23:54  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Developers waiting in the queue for ie8 (Queue length: 1 on 1 servers. Total servers: 3)
23:24:59  * _sorensenquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:26:25  * mikealjoined
23:45:28  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Encoders down:
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23:57:03  * ryan_stevensjoined
23:58:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []