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00:44:28  <Raynos>SubStack: dont forget to go to berkely
00:45:32  <SubStack>yep
00:45:37  <SubStack>have all my materials ready
00:45:49  <SubStack>should be pretty sweet
00:46:07  <SubStack>also there's lightning talks afterwards so people should come with materials!
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01:26:57  <SubStack>Raynos: heading to berkeley now
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05:38:16  <SubStack>whoa I might've fixed the x11 mouse errors I've been having!
05:46:47  <jesusabdullah>word
05:48:37  <SubStack>fuck all this cold sore is annoying >_<
05:51:30  <SubStack>a latent virus going all kinds of crazy!
05:52:12  <Raynos>:(
05:52:15  <Raynos>good talk btw
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06:07:11  <SubStack>thanks!
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06:31:13  <SubStack>crap actually the mouse is wonky again
06:31:56  <SubStack>seems to be this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=741553
06:37:19  <SubStack>restarting chrome seems to somewhat fix it
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06:41:30  <jesusabdullah>hmm
06:41:46  <jesusabdullah>I have one where if I leave a bunch of terminals open for too long all the colors start randomly switching places
06:41:52  <jesusabdullah>and I get a psychedelically-colored terminal
06:46:41  <SubStack>dominictarr: http://binaryjs.com/
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06:50:47  <SubStack>it'd be sweet if mux-demux could create binary streams
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07:07:36  <isaacs>SubStack: http://www.merlinmann.com/roderick/ep-36-uncle-licky.html
07:28:28  <SubStack>aha
07:30:19  <SubStack>isaacs: tap bug https://gist.github.com/3186658
07:33:30  <SubStack>https://github.com/isaacs/node-tap/issues/51
07:55:13  <SubStack>lips are so swolen right now >_<
07:55:30  <SubStack>it was pretty difficult to eat earlier
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08:38:23  <jesusabdullah>SubStack: https://gist.github.com/3186855 needs a better name
08:39:13  <SubStack>it's like curl for node?
08:40:37  <SubStack>not that you shouldn't publish what you have, but there are a few of those on npm already
08:41:43  <SubStack>jesusabdullah: hurl is available
08:41:55  <SubStack>gurl is taken though, that was my first pick
08:42:26  <SubStack>or whurl or something to that affect
08:44:09  <SubStack>kurl!
08:49:28  <captain_morgan>for what its worth, a burl is both a knot in a tree and a.. maneuver(?) on the bagpipes
08:51:15  <captain_morgan>and available on npm
08:51:21  <captain_morgan>just sayin
08:53:11  <captain_morgan>ahh boo, I guess the bagpipe squawk is birl
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09:43:35  <dominictarr>SubStack, yeah binary.js did it right!
09:43:49  <SubStack>the api is just a little wonky but that's easy to fix
09:44:07  <dominictarr>it wouldn't be too hard, it would just need a different packet framing
09:44:17  <dominictarr>length oriented
09:44:42  <SubStack>I remember people arguing on irc about that stuff like 2 years ago
09:44:55  <SubStack>len,data seemed like a nifty way to go
09:45:06  <SubStack>just digits and a ',' separator
09:45:51  <SubStack>and then perhaps base64 encode/decode fallbacks for browsers without Int8Array or whichever
09:47:49  <dominictarr>if you don't use length, you have to escape everything.
09:48:33  <dominictarr>the binary.js api is nearly the same as mux-demux
09:49:42  <dominictarr>it would probably only be a small patch to make it dropin compatible
09:50:51  <SubStack>also I showed off graph-stream and shoe at a talk I gave in berkeley tonight
09:51:13  <SubStack>seemed well-received I think
09:51:16  <SubStack>Raynos was there!
09:54:53  <SubStack>the future of open source is this: http://blogs.gnome.org/otte/2012/07/27/staring-into-the-abyss/
09:55:34  <SubStack>big unfocused projects like gnome will fester, tiny focused projects will take over
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10:03:25  <tm604>heh - "Nobody can say if GNOME 3 is better or worse than GNOME 2", surely plenty of people are doing *exactly* that, loudly and passionately =)
10:04:48  <Altreus>yeah: it's better
10:04:49  <Altreus>:P
10:04:56  <SubStack>in both directions it would seem!
10:05:07  * SubStackthe xmonad
10:05:36  <SubStack>I even tried some other tiling window managers briefly but they had a top bar I couldn't get rid of easily
10:05:52  <tm604>it's better in a similar sense to kde4 being better than kde3: I'm sure technically there are plenty of improvements. from the point of view of a lowly user, I'd quite like to have gnome2 back thanks very much.
10:06:07  <Altreus>if I have Class.proto.foo = function() {...} and then obj = new Class; then foo = obj.foo; will foo() have the same `this` context as obj.foo() ?
10:06:31  <Altreus>by which I mean could I pass obj.foo as a callback and still keep my this
10:06:54  <SubStack>Altreus: if you just call foo() `this` will be the global object
10:06:59  <SubStack>but you can bind it
10:07:05  <SubStack>foo = obj.foo.bind(obj)
10:07:22  <Altreus>ermagherd
10:07:29  <Altreus>I will try this thank you :4
10:07:30  <Altreus>:3
10:07:34  <SubStack>or if you don't have a browser with Function.prototype.bind you can do foo = function () { return obj.foo.apply(this, arguments) }
10:07:49  <Altreus>oh that is likely to be a problem isn't it
10:07:50  <SubStack>er
10:08:03  <SubStack>foo = function () { return obj.foo.apply(obj, arguments) }
10:08:04  <SubStack>that instead
10:08:15  <Altreus>can I make that function the bind function on Function?
10:08:32  <Altreus>with a bit of params
10:08:41  <SubStack>shimming it out?
10:08:57  <SubStack>if (!Function.prototype.bind) Function.prototype.bind = ... ^ that stuff ^ ...
10:09:12  <Altreus>yah where obj is from function (obj)
10:09:19  <Altreus>I will do that
10:09:56  <SubStack>check out es5-shim for an implementation
10:10:33  <SubStack>https://github.com/kriskowal/es5-shim/blob/master/es5-shim.js#L58-L172
10:10:56  <Altreus>cripes
10:11:09  <Altreus>that is not as short eh :)
10:13:10  <Altreus>yoink
10:13:15  <Altreus>SubStack++ #helper
10:15:39  <SubStack>or you could do it this way:
10:15:57  <SubStack>> function bind (fn, self) { var args = [].slice.call(2); return function () { return fn.apply(self, args.concat([].slice.call(arguments))) } }
10:16:00  <SubStack>undefined
10:16:03  <SubStack>> function Class () { this.x = 5 }; Class.prototype.foo = function (n) { return this.x + n }; var c = new Class, foo = bind(c.foo, c); foo(100)
10:16:06  <SubStack>105
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10:44:42  <dominictarr>SubStack, have you see nwm ? it's a window manager written in node
10:45:23  <dools>does nwm stand for "node window manager"?
10:47:53  <dominictarr>SLT
10:48:07  <dominictarr>(which stands for "Something Like That")
10:54:34  <SubStack>yep I'm familiar with it
10:54:40  <SubStack>haven't tried it yet though
10:54:55  <SubStack>holy fucking shits this cold sore is gigantic
10:55:03  <SubStack>tried icing it away, no luck
10:57:26  <SubStack>wikipedia says the swelling could last days
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11:31:00  <captain_morgan>nwm looks nice
11:31:20  <captain_morgan>although in the past I've not been much into tiling WMs
11:31:40  <captain_morgan>but with an upcoming Linux desktop build I think I will give it a try
11:53:35  <dominictarr>hmm, binary.js uses msgpack-js
11:53:45  <dominictarr>I was looking into this the other day,
11:54:04  <dominictarr>and I found that line seperated json was actually faster.
11:55:22  <dominictarr>it's too slow to parse the binary in js. faster to use a regexp and then the builtin JSON.parse
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13:30:01  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
13:30:02  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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15:29:36  <isaacs>jesusabdullah: you know if you put a /**package {...} **/ comment in it, you could do npm install https://raw.github.com/gist/3186855/download.js
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15:48:14  <dominictarr>isaacs, more stream stuff https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/3778
15:48:46  <isaacs>dominictarr: we've been over that. no, we can't do that.
15:49:10  <dominictarr>oh, is there a discussion about it somewhere?
15:49:23  <isaacs>dominictarr: well, in the 0.5 days we tried this
15:49:25  <isaacs>it breaks a lot of shit
15:49:51  <isaacs>dominictarr: many streams emit 'close' when you call destroy(*)
15:50:00  <isaacs>or they emit 'error' if you have already closed them
15:50:10  <isaacs>100% of the time, you get cyclic explodey
15:50:31  <dominictarr>oh, that is why I cleanup the listeners before i propagate
15:51:02  <dominictarr>once you have decided to call destroy(), you don't care what that stream does next.
15:51:14  <dominictarr>pipe doesn't care, I mean.
15:54:29  <dominictarr>isaacs, is there a pull request of the previous attempt, or something?
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16:01:41  <isaacs>dominictarr: i don't know
16:01:46  <isaacs>it would have been about a year ago
16:02:37  <isaacs>honestly, though, i'm not interested in any stream interface changes that (a) make 'destroy' or 'close' events even more of a first-class citizen in the interface, or (b) add things to pipe in a way that does not address the fundamental problems, or (c) have any chance of breaking existing programs.
16:02:44  <isaacs>this does all three ;)
16:04:33  <dominictarr>may I beg to differ about (b) ?
16:06:18  <dominictarr>my view is that the value of Stream is in the abstraction. it's the original garden hose interface from unix, but much more flexible.
16:06:31  <isaacs>dominictarr: it does not make readable streams easier to implement.
16:06:44  <isaacs>it's *not* the garden hose interface from unix, and it's not more flexible.
16:06:46  <isaacs>it's *less* flexible
16:07:02  <dominictarr>*less* flexible?
16:07:48  <isaacs>yes.
16:07:56  <dominictarr>how do you figure?
16:08:09  <isaacs>what we need is the epoll/read(2)/EWOULDBLOCK style interface.
16:08:30  <isaacs>ie, get an event when you can read, then read() to consume some bytes, or get some notification that reading is not possible right now.
16:08:40  <isaacs>if not consumed, then bytes sit there exerting backpressure on the underlying system.
16:08:45  <isaacs>filling up some OS buffer
16:09:26  <isaacs>this makes it easier to write parsers that consume n bytes at a time, or routers that read the headers and then decide what to do with the data, or session things that handle uploads based on the results of a redis fetch, etc.
16:09:43  <isaacs>without all the pausing and userland buffering we do now
16:09:51  <dominictarr>I'm not against your read() able stream.
16:10:07  <isaacs>so, if we do readable streams like that, we're going to basically ditch Stream.pipe anyway.
16:10:18  <isaacs>changing it can only make hazards, and doesn't address the underlying problem.
16:10:34  <isaacs>now, readable/read()/(return data || null) streams might not work.
16:10:40  <dominictarr>what will it be called then? won't that break loads of stuff?
16:10:50  <isaacs>bert tells me that that's going to be very very difficult to do in libuv for windows.
16:11:16  <isaacs>dominictarr: i already have a shim that's working now and interoperable with other streams
16:11:31  <isaacs>and implemented fs.readstrem with it. it totally works.
16:11:42  <dominictarr>I saw it.
16:11:48  <isaacs>i'm trying a new approach now just to see if it's feasible, to do stream.read(n, cb)
16:11:55  <isaacs>rather than a readable event
16:12:01  <isaacs>i'm not as in love with it
16:12:04  <isaacs>but we'll see
16:12:11  <dominictarr>right, me too. but I'm just coming from a different angle.
16:12:27  <dominictarr>I'm coming from looking at the Stream as an abstraction.
16:12:52  <isaacs>so: any change that does not fix readable streams, in a deep way, that is easy to interoperate with existing programs without breaking them, is not going to happen.
16:13:05  <isaacs>er, that is not easy to interoperate
16:13:15  * isaacsgets confused easily by booleans in english
16:13:15  <dominictarr>right, so you see that as the only problem?
16:13:22  <isaacs>i see that as the biggest problem.
16:13:31  <isaacs>it makes backpressure a userland problem, when it should be a system problem.
16:13:48  <dominictarr>back pressure is complex
16:13:55  <dominictarr>it's a control system.
16:13:55  <isaacs>it's like, don't order 10 hamburgers if you're only going to eat 2
16:13:56  <isaacs>just order 2
16:14:18  <isaacs>in our current system, we order all the hamburgers, then make it your job to decide what to do with them
16:14:32  <isaacs>there's no way to *just* consume the first 10 bytes of a stream, and leave the rest there.
16:14:56  <dominictarr>well, the chunk that you read from the disk is still in memory, though right?
16:15:02  <isaacs>forget disks.
16:15:09  <dominictarr>well wherever,
16:15:15  <isaacs>files are bullshit. we have to read huge chunks and buffer them, no matter what we do.
16:15:24  <isaacs>think about tcp, http, that sort of thing
16:15:33  <dominictarr>you don't tell a tcp stream to only send you 10 bytes
16:15:51  <isaacs>well, it sits there trying to push, and it can't push more through until you take it out
16:16:37  <isaacs>in libev and libuv, yes, that's exactly what we're doing. we're waiting for the fd to be readable, then calling read() to get all the data until we get an EWOULDBLOCK, then waiting for it to be readable again.
16:16:57  <isaacs>on windows, it's different. you just call read() and give it a callback.
16:17:05  <isaacs>so, i'm trying out that model in js, see how it is
16:17:46  <dominictarr>right, so leaving the buffer full physically stops the upstream from sending anything.
16:18:12  <dominictarr>it's like implicitly calling pause()
16:18:22  <dominictarr>but pause() doesn't exist in this case.
16:20:13  <isaacs>yep
16:20:19  <isaacs>no pause(), no resume()
16:20:24  <isaacs>let tcp do that
16:20:46  <isaacs>that is almost 100% of the hard parts of getting streams right
16:22:29  <dominictarr>hmm, I'm gonna have to thing about how this would work interms of userland streams.
16:22:48  <dominictarr>see if they would be simpler with buffers that worked like that.
16:23:33  <isaacs>it does make the fs readable a lot easier.
16:23:51  <isaacs>there's a bug in my passthrough stream, which i need to figure out
16:24:09  <dominictarr>I also have a thing like that
16:24:10  <isaacs>i also want to see how it affects zlib streams.
16:24:34  <dominictarr>what is the bug in the passthrough stream?
16:24:51  <dominictarr>https://github.com/dominictarr/fs-reverse
16:25:00  <isaacs>fs and zlib are my go-to userland streams, since i'm most familiar with them and they are two cases where we've taken something decidedly un-tcp-ish and made it look like tcp
16:25:05  <dominictarr>(reads a file by lines in reverse)
16:25:17  <isaacs>dominictarr: well, the passthrough stream works, but it's not shimming properly to 'data' events.
16:25:25  <dominictarr>mased on this https://github.com/dominictarr/from
16:25:36  <dominictarr>s/mased/based
16:26:23  <dominictarr>passthrough streams are probably simpler the old way.
16:26:28  <isaacs>dominictarr: so my mute-stream thing broke when i tried to make it use that, even though that should be simpler.
16:26:33  <isaacs>it's actually really easy
16:26:42  <isaacs>.write() drops it in a buffer, .read() pulls it back out
16:27:59  <dominictarr>mute-stream is the one with the bug?
16:32:25  <isaacs>dominictarr: yeah
16:32:31  <isaacs>it's not pushed to gh yet
16:33:52  <dominictarr>okay, I'll be interested to see how this turns out.
16:33:56  <dominictarr>one more question
16:34:05  <isaacs>k
16:34:27  <dominictarr>what would it take for my PR to get considered, theoretically?
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17:13:30  <isaacs>dominictarr: send it back in time a year or two ;)
17:13:53  <isaacs>sorry, i don't mean to be harsh.
17:15:31  <isaacs>but like, destroy() and close() need to be more application-specific, not part of the official "MUST" interface, which they are now.
17:17:33  <dominictarr>right, so I do check if destroy is defined before calling it.
17:17:43  <dominictarr>that pretty much moves it from must -> should
17:21:25  <dominictarr>I just found it breaks some tests. there is a test for silently cleaning up on dest.emit('close')
17:21:35  <dominictarr>so this would break this api.
17:25:30  <isaacs>i'd really *really* rather not even touch the current Stream.pipe
17:25:46  <isaacs>just kinda leave it as-is, and move past it to something better.
17:25:51  <isaacs>shim to the that API, and from it.
17:26:04  <isaacs>but NewReadableThing.pipe should be a new function, not Stream.pipe
17:34:31  <dominictarr>hmm, but won't much of the functionality be the same?
17:35:01  <dominictarr>okay okay, I've just thought of a new approach that is way less invasive.
17:39:07  <isaacs>btw, we're hashing out some of the lowlevel changes in #libuv
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18:50:22  <dominictarr>isaacs, here is a way less unreasonable pull request. just two lines. https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/3785
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19:13:16  <isaacs>dominictarr: i don't know.
19:13:23  <isaacs>dominictarr: it's new API, so it can't go in 0.8.
19:13:32  <isaacs>dominictarr: and it's probably not relevant in 0.9
19:14:22  <isaacs>but, this is a much smaller change.
19:14:34  <isaacs>lower impact
19:14:44  <isaacs>so that's nice :)
19:15:10  <chapel>isaacs the dream crusher
19:15:16  <isaacs>i know, it's tough.
19:15:30  * isaacsis haunted at night by the souls of all the crushed dreams.
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19:34:43  <dominictarr>isaacs, well, lets just leave it on the table for a bit, things might change with the ongoing stream discussion.
19:35:50  <dominictarr>WTF is sports doing in here?
19:44:43  <dominictarr>LOUDBOT be -groupcat-
19:45:04  <dominictarr>FFS LOUDBOT
19:49:29  * yhuangquit (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347])
19:50:01  <dominictarr>I T H I N K T H A T I S J U S T W H I T E S P A C E
19:51:06  <jesusabdullah>No, that's a different font
19:51:08  <jesusabdullah>definitely
19:51:12  <jesusabdullah>Look at it, it's serif'd
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19:54:01  <dominictarr>not on my client.
19:54:28  <jesusabdullah>That's cause your client sucks
19:55:21  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah, I have auto complete for people with too long names
19:55:25  <dominictarr>what more do you need?
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19:57:12  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
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19:57:59  <jesusabdullah>dominictarr: bizarre serif'd fonts in your cli
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20:04:43  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah, you've been hacked.
20:05:00  <jesusabdullah>pffsht
20:05:33  <dominictarr>it was probably a stray escape character or something.
20:06:11  <jesusabdullah>Yeah probably
20:06:26  <jesusabdullah>I'm cool with a serif-ing escape character.
20:06:46  <jesusabdullah>What client are you using anyway?
20:09:51  <ik>it's not a 'font'
20:09:53  <ik>re: the loudbot thing
20:10:25  <ik>those were just the fullwidth characters
20:10:36  <ik>16:09:14 < perlbot> ik: U+FF34 (ef bc b4): FULLWIDTH LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T [T ]
20:10:59  <jesusabdullah>YEAH SEE that "fullwidth latin capital letter T" has serifs
20:11:04  <jesusabdullah>in MY font anyway!
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20:12:03  <ik>yea and that's all about your font
20:12:13  <ik>but the fact that it's different from T is because they're different characters
20:12:24  <jesusabdullah>HMMPH
20:12:26  <ik>your font could draw it as a pooping dolphin or something
20:12:34  <ik>but regular T would still be a T
20:12:35  <jesusabdullah>A pooping dolphin?
20:12:38  <ik>sure
20:12:39  <jesusabdullah>What font is this??
20:12:45  <ik>I don't know but I hope to find out
20:12:59  <jesusabdullah>Please let me know if you ever find a font with pooping dolphin glypgs.
20:13:03  <jesusabdullah>glyphs*
20:13:50  <ik>sometimes you have to do for yourself what others won't, jesusabdullah
20:13:58  <ik>SubStack: HI HELLO
20:14:15  <ik>SubStack: we have an art request it is sort of off your regular 'whimsical robot' line of work but I believe you are capable
20:14:24  <jesusabdullah>ik: Drawing a font with pooping dolphin glyphs sounds hard
20:14:45  <ik>http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm
20:14:55  <ik>I just googled for 'unicode poop' at work for you. I hope you're appropriately grateful
20:15:01  <ik>so all you really need is a dolphin now
20:15:08  <ik>oh christ
20:15:08  <ik>http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f42c/index.htm
20:15:28  <ik>��
20:15:32  <ik>pooping dolphin in two characters
20:15:40  <ik>of interest: the poop glyph in my terminal font has a face.
20:15:43  <ik>Poop with a face.
20:16:00  <ik>It looks somewhere between 'happy' and 'astonished'
20:21:20  <ik>shitwaves.
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20:36:37  <jesusabdullah>ik: appropriate.
20:36:50  <Nexxy>rofl
20:36:52  <jesusabdullah>aww, my font won't show the pooping dolphin
20:37:03  <jesusabdullah>by appropriate I mean, appropriately grateful
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21:09:32  <SubStack>ik: is this mysql related?
21:10:14  <ik>SubStack: yikes
21:10:15  <ik>maybe
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22:19:18  <SubStack>:D
22:20:53  <SubStack>isaacs: that tap bug seems to be an issue with Test.prototype.emit, I've got a failing test for it, fixing
22:24:48  <SubStack>pow fixed
22:24:51  <SubStack>one-line change
22:26:58  <SubStack>https://github.com/substack/node-tap/commit/d964c6f4fdf76679c1a28e10c58162490a8c3352
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22:29:41  <SubStack>https://github.com/isaacs/node-tap/pull/52
22:29:56  <SubStack>Raynos: ^^^
22:30:22  <Raynos>sweet
22:30:32  <Raynos>next time I see isaacs
22:30:36  <SubStack>now getting back to finishing porting upnode to the latest dnode
22:30:39  <Raynos>I will convince him he loves accepting PRs
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22:37:02  <pkrumins>browserling reaches 180 customers!
22:39:07  <SubStack>\o/
22:40:25  <guybrush>pkrumins: SubStack gratz, may i ask how much hardware you have running now?
22:40:41  <pkrumins>25 servers
22:40:48  <guybrush>sounds super cool :DD
22:40:52  <pkrumins>yep
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23:13:37  <isaacs>SubStack: thanks
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