00:00:24  <substack>speaking of communism
00:00:38  <dominictarr>Raynos, what defaults are you talking about '/shoe' ?
00:00:38  <substack>heading to the chinese consulate tomorrow to pick up my travel visa
00:00:49  <substack>another waiting in line adventure
00:01:43  <dominictarr>substack, you are unfortunate you will never get to go on the US immigration queue ride.
00:01:46  <substack>visas are such bullshit why can't we just have an incompetant world government without borders already
00:01:56  <dominictarr>I hear it's a doozie.
00:02:17  <dominictarr>indeed.
00:02:18  <substack>no doubt
00:02:36  <substack>domestic air travel is crazy enough
00:02:44  <Raynos>dominictarr: the error handling
00:02:52  <substack>I know they collect fingerprints and interrogate people
00:03:07  <substack>and do all sorts of pointless biometrical things
00:03:33  <substack>mostly because the US companies that build those systems are really good at selling ineffective products at huge markups to the TSA
00:03:47  <dominictarr>but like, you might have more than 100 ml of fluids.
00:03:51  <Raynos>dominictarr: https://github.com/Raynos/mux-demux-shoe/blob/master/browser.js#L19 and
00:04:12  <substack>I can produce in excess of 100 mL of fluids on request
00:04:32  <substack>just need a few cups of coffee first
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00:05:34  <dominictarr>Raynos, if you really want to bundle & wrap stuff like that I'd also use reconnect.
00:06:05  <dominictarr>but then, I think there is a better way to do this.
00:07:18  <dominictarr>a more composable way to get rid of the x.pipe(y).pipe(x) boiler plate
00:07:38  <dominictarr>(we just havn't though of it yet)
00:07:59  <substack>join(x, y)
00:08:26  <substack>returns a duplex stream with x as the readable, y as the writable
00:08:35  <substack>and it pipes x to y and y to x
00:08:57  <substack>actually the return type could be strange, thinking
00:13:17  <dominictarr>join?
00:13:44  <dominictarr>use duplexer(writable, readable)
00:13:52  <substack>or that
00:14:05  <substack>does duplexer have a return value?
00:14:31  <dominictarr>oh, just realized what you where talking about
00:15:32  <dominictarr>join = function (x, y) { x.pipe(y).pipe(x); return x }
00:16:34  <substack>it's like a looping node that points at itself in a DAG
00:16:41  <dominictarr>I'm thinking of something more like composeable(servery).use(thing).use(otherThing)
00:17:06  <substack>dominictarr: have you seen oppressor + request-stream?
00:17:15  <dominictarr>servery is an event emitter that emit('connection', stream)
00:17:30  <substack>you can do pipe-able middleware-esque things with just vanilla .pipe() and some hackery
00:17:41  <Raynos>dominictarr: Agreed.
00:17:45  <Raynos>dominictarr: Argh
00:18:06  <substack>whoa
00:18:08  <substack>actually
00:18:10  <Raynos>dominictarr: I can't :(
00:18:17  <substack>what we need is a lib that lets us compose webapps like DAGs
00:18:39  <substack>requests feed in and the nodes are connected via pipes
00:18:43  <Raynos>substack: join(x,y) is pipeline
00:18:49  <substack>aha
00:18:56  <dominictarr>Raynos, no it's different.
00:18:57  <Raynos>except it does x.pipe(y)
00:19:01  <Raynos>not y.pipe(x)
00:19:06  <dominictarr>it goes both ways.
00:19:18  <Raynos>duplexer(x, y) returns a duplex without piping
00:19:25  <Raynos>I really like invert-stream as a baseclass for duplex streams
00:19:48  <substack>oh sweet I should call this lib "dagger"
00:19:50  <Raynos>dominictarr: `.use` is `.pipe`
00:19:54  <dominictarr>substack, one thing though, is that an app isn't just a network of streams, because streams are transient,
00:19:55  <Raynos>streams already have that
00:20:26  <Raynos>the problem is that MuxDemux is a stream server as it has a callback for each stream so its a pain to compose
00:20:29  <substack>dominictarr: what would be an example of a thing that this approach can't handle?
00:20:48  <Raynos>substack: join(through1, through2) is an infinite loop
00:20:49  <dominictarr>no, this is about handling the 'connection' event, when the stream comes into existance.
00:21:17  <dominictarr>Raynos, it's just like var s = net.connect(); s.pipe(dnode).pipe(s)
00:21:26  <Raynos>oh I see
00:21:51  <dominictarr>Raynos, yeah, we need ways for composing "servers"
00:21:58  <dominictarr>i.e. things that emit streams.
00:22:08  <Raynos>there are only very few of those
00:22:15  <dominictarr>there are a few.
00:22:19  <Raynos>muxdemux is the only one I can think of
00:22:25  <Raynos>that isn't a real server
00:22:35  <Raynos>sock & net are real servers
00:22:52  <dominictarr>normal servers, mux-demux, autonode, reconnect, and peers -- when it is ready -- will be like that too.
00:23:39  <dominictarr>reconnect emits streams sequentially, but still the same shaped api.
00:23:59  <Raynos>I see
00:24:01  <Raynos>your right
00:24:07  <Raynos>relayStreams does it too
00:24:24  <dominictarr>yup
00:24:55  <Raynos>dominictarr: can you make peers p2p
00:26:27  <dominictarr>Raynos, that is why it's called peers!
00:26:44  <Raynos>its not p2p
00:26:48  <Raynos>it spawns servers
00:26:51  <Raynos>thats cheating
00:27:07  <dominictarr>it's peer to peer on the serverside, behind the firewall.
00:27:15  <dominictarr>that is still peer2peer.
00:27:42  <Raynos>its just opening connections directly
00:27:54  <Raynos>I imagine webrtc peer doesn't open a TCP/UDP server
00:28:41  <dominictarr>it has to, how else can it receive a connection?
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00:33:53  <dominictarr>using that stuff on the user side will have lots of open security problems, but there are still many applications for it on the server side
00:34:08  <dominictarr>for managing large deployments
00:34:21  <Raynos>dominictarr: I see. I didn't actually understand that they opened a server
00:34:30  <Raynos>I thought they just magically connected without servers
00:34:52  <Raynos>but I still dislike port / hosts :/
00:34:57  <dominictarr>I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
00:35:25  <dominictarr>yeah, unfortunately, that is built into the way OSs work.
00:36:01  <dominictarr>there is also many other cool applications for stuff like that -- like robots, that get occasional contact with each other.
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00:37:44  <Raynos>dominictarr: https://gist.github.com/3521020
00:38:29  <dominictarr>other is the row that represents the peer being connected to.
00:38:44  <dominictarr>it's the other end of the stream.
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00:42:17  <dominictarr>is there a way to ssh to one machine and then to another in a singe command?
00:43:46  <Raynos>dominictarr: dont know
00:44:42  <substack>dominictarr: you could ssh host1 'ssh host2'
00:44:52  <dominictarr>i'll try that
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00:45:30  <substack>or maybe you could use -R
00:45:43  <substack>or -L
00:46:02  <substack>I can only think of how to use those in 2 steps though
00:52:09  <substack>oh neat, stream handbook was linked to from dailyjs
00:52:13  <substack>http://dailyjs.com/2012/08/29/node-roundup/
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01:09:18  <dominictarr>I think it's my bedtime, catch you guys later!
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01:18:27  <substack>powering through all this ci stuff wheee
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02:21:05  <substack>woot!
02:34:54  <Raynos>substack: when can I run my tests on your cloud with one click?
02:35:10  <substack>working on it
02:35:20  <substack>hacking up a really shitty job queueing system right now
02:43:06  <Raynos>dominictarr: iterate vs iterators. Battle of the functions!
02:43:19  <Raynos>substack: don't you already have a job queueing system?
02:45:14  <substack>not really
02:47:31  <Raynos>dominictarr: [k, v, s, ts] vs [k, v, ts, s]
02:47:39  <Raynos>why change the source, timestamp in scutttlebut?
02:56:53  <Nexxy>lol, scuttlebutt
03:06:03  <Raynos>substack: any opinion on data protocols? https://github.com/dominictarr/scuttlebutt/issues/2
03:09:41  <Raynos>dominictarr: scuttlebutt is really clean and simple
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03:15:02  <substack>excellent
03:16:52  <Raynos>dominictarr: It's also clever :)
03:24:51  <Raynos>dominictarr: I'll rewrite delta-stream to be a scuttlebutt instance
03:25:04  <Raynos>I may rewrite splice-stream to be one as well but that is going to be hard
03:25:43  <Raynos>it basically needs to be written like crdt.Seq to work
03:51:14  <substack>ok now testing this beast
04:14:45  <Raynos>substack: http://blog.nodejitsu.com/resource-reflection-in-flatiron
04:14:50  <substack>yep read it
04:15:36  <substack>need to get that piped through a stream to shoe it up to the browser
04:22:51  <Raynos>substack: what do you think a) about reflection, b) resourceful, c) flatiron?
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04:31:42  <Raynos>substack: at east bay meetup tomorrow some guy is talking about streams
04:32:03  <Raynos>is he going to say anything I don't already know?
04:33:09  <substack>probs not
04:33:25  <substack>since you know everything there is to know about streams already
04:33:37  <substack>he asked me to talk a little about stream handbook topics too
04:39:41  <Raynos>dominictarr: rewriting delta-stream to basically be an improved scuttlebutt/Model
04:39:59  <Raynos>substack: you mean this guy isn't the stream god?
04:40:06  <Raynos>surely there are stream gods that know more then me
04:40:21  <Raynos>apart from dominictarr
04:40:48  <substack>dominic you me maxogden mikeal isaacs are the biggest stream folk from what I've been able to gather
04:41:16  <Raynos>sounds about right
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04:43:32  <Raynos>dominictarr: I'm in england for most of september. What's the most convenient way to visit you
04:55:43  <substack>Raynos: roughly https://gist.github.com/3522507
04:55:57  <Raynos>:D
04:56:15  <Raynos>your crazy
04:56:23  <Raynos>whos this dodo
04:56:27  <substack>a better estimate would be to look at the ast to figure out who depends on require('stream') the most
04:56:41  <Raynos>i rarely depend on require('stream')
04:56:47  <substack>and points for using modules that use require('stream') too
04:56:47  <Raynos>I always use through or from as base classes
04:57:06  <Raynos>I don't want the pain of forgetting to implement destroy ever :P
04:59:29  <Raynos>RAGEFACE: https://github.com/dodo/node-valvestream/blob/master/valvestream.js
04:59:33  <Raynos>WHY DO PEOPLE DO THAT
04:59:51  <Raynos>I BLAME TJ
05:00:11  <substack>Raynos: it's a coffeescript project too
05:00:16  <Raynos>yeah
05:00:20  <Raynos>i closed it after I saw that
05:00:24  <substack>needless indirection
05:00:35  <Raynos>this dodo guy doesn't count
05:00:38  <Raynos>he writes coffeescript
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06:36:30  <substack>just ran a falafel test through this testling ci thing
06:36:32  <substack>by doing a git push
06:47:13  <substack>working on streaming the tap output into couch tomorrow
06:47:17  <substack>then I can render browser badges
06:47:39  <substack>then github hooks and we can ship this
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08:42:20  <dominictarr>substack, Raynos are you guys still awake?
08:42:36  <substack>yep
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08:46:01  <dominictarr>Raynos, changing the position of source, ts, that was a mistake
08:48:11  <dominictarr>but it's probably easier to go that way, since when explaining it, you tell people about time stamp first.
08:49:20  <dominictarr>I've met dodo (I mean on the internet)
08:49:54  <dominictarr>when I first wrote event-stream I went around and posted issues of every one who had modules that where _almost_ streams
08:50:16  <dominictarr>but not quite, and I think he was one of the ones who responded.
08:52:26  <dominictarr>that list can't be accurate, because https://github.com/fent should be on it. he has a few interesting stream modules.
08:54:30  <substack>this is so boss, I'm getting tap results back from browsers in the cloud when I do a git push
08:54:41  <substack>and I'm using unmodified tap tests too
08:54:51  <substack>no more require('testling') even you can just use tap as-is
08:55:45  <substack>but I'm using shoe, so I need to make sure that absolutely works all the way down to ie6
09:07:21  <dominictarr>substack, is shoe drifting away from sockjs?
09:09:40  <substack>drifting?
09:10:01  <substack>shoe is pretty much how it should be the way it is
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09:10:44  <substack>it's only depending on a different sockjs version on account of some wonky optionalDependency noise that was broken in older npms
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09:10:56  <substack>older npms we were using for deployment since upgrading things is a tricky business
09:11:45  <dominictarr>I mean, what about new patches to sockjs?
09:11:58  <substack>new patches? o_O
09:12:06  <substack>link?
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09:13:53  <dominictarr>oh, no doesn't look like any code has changed since april
09:15:26  <substack>people really want to learn more about streams
09:15:39  <dominictarr>Raynos, if you are coming to Europe we can deffinately meet up!
09:15:50  <substack>150 stars on stream-handbook
09:15:59  <dominictarr>wow that is fast
09:16:14  <substack>it's pretty incomplete still
09:16:23  <dominictarr>totes
09:16:36  <substack>only 10%ish done
09:16:48  <dominictarr>Raynos, my default plan is to hang out in berlin, until LXJS
09:16:49  <substack>probably less than that if I keep working on it and accept pull requests
09:18:35  <dominictarr>but I also have plans to visit UK, as I have several friends there
09:19:43  <dominictarr>but putting it off, because london is expensive,
09:20:10  <dominictarr>also no one has really said anything good about london, compared to berlin
09:26:18  <dominictarr>but, we'll figure something out!
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10:56:49  <substack>dominictarr: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXRJtu2w6QU#t=30m46s
10:57:27  <substack>robosocialism
11:02:02  <dominictarr>we need a new implementation of money, so that it's easy to swap labor like he says.
11:02:18  <dominictarr>the current implementation just makes it way too hard
11:02:40  <dominictarr>and there are too many people who have time but not "money".
11:03:39  <substack>and laws and workplace custom makes it difficult too
11:05:06  <substack>and in the US it's especially shit since employers handle healthcare
11:05:12  <substack>so people are even more stuck in their jobs
11:05:30  <substack>especially if they or a family member develops health problems
11:23:49  <dominictarr>yeah, all the stuff that isaacs linked to in his anarchy talk apply here
11:25:11  <dominictarr>maybe you need some sort of alternate health insurance where they fly you to Canada.
11:30:14  <dominictarr>Raynos, check this out http://blog.nodejitsu.com/resource-reflection-in-flatiron
11:30:31  <substack>Raynos already linked me so he's read it
11:30:44  <dominictarr>oh, cool.
11:31:03  <substack>so I want resourceful to have an update stream that I can pipe into browsers
11:31:32  <dominictarr>yeah totally, also marak is really good an generating hype.
11:32:28  <dominictarr>crdt is kinda anti the idea of a "resource" though.
11:32:48  <dominictarr>because it's distributed.
11:34:44  <dominictarr>you can still get concurrent updates with data bases, you just don't have a good way to know they have occured.
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14:26:23  <dominictarr>Raynos, another function refactored out of event-stream : http://npm.im/split
14:26:29  <Altreus>pkrumins: this bash article is very helpful
14:26:42  <Altreus>it is all about the visuals
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15:46:44  <Altreus>substack: the comparison of .pipe() to using | is valuable
15:53:29  <tanepiper>substack: yea, the guide is awesome - can't wait for the writable streams bit - i can probably re-write a bunch of crappy code I got wrong :D
15:53:50  <tanepiper>STREAM ALL THE THINGS!
15:54:01  <tanepiper>YES IT CAN, LOUDBOT
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17:57:22  <pkrumins>Altreus: thanks
17:57:57  <pkrumins>for those who didn't see, i wrote an article that explains all possible bash redirections (with illustrations): http://www.catonmat.net/blog/bash-one-liners-explained-part-three/
18:16:27  <substack>testling ci progress! https://gist.github.com/3536198
18:16:52  <substack>that tap output is coming directly from testling.com when I did a git push from node-falafel
18:16:59  <substack>through this ci server prototype
18:17:09  * substack&
18:18:15  <substack>using the existing node-falafel test suite even
18:18:18  <substack>ok & for reals
18:19:24  <Raynos>dominictarr: event-steram is on way to death
18:20:44  <Raynos>substack: https://github.com/substack/shoe/blob/master/package.json#L12
18:20:55  <Raynos>we really want to use sockjs pure
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18:22:28  <maxogden>substack: how do you deal with source maps for line numbers for errors when doing client side dev with browserify
18:23:36  <Raynos>maxogden: He doesn't use source maps. He uses sourceURL
18:24:34  <Raynos>maxogden: the dev flag turns sourceURL (http://blog.getfirebug.com/2009/08/11/give-your-eval-a-name-with-sourceurl/ ) on
18:31:24  <Raynos>dominictarr: https://github.com/dominictarr/through/blob/master/index.js#L47
18:31:52  <dominictarr>Raynos, it will just be a repository of readme and package.json eventually.
18:32:09  <Raynos>should destroy emit end ?>
18:32:13  <Raynos>before it emits close?
18:32:17  <dominictarr>Raynos, no
18:32:32  <Raynos>but end means no more data
18:32:34  <dominictarr>nothing in core works like that.
18:32:35  <Raynos>close also means no more data
18:32:39  <Raynos>Oh I see
18:32:49  <Raynos>update stream-spec to say "end doesn't need to be emitted if close was emitted"
18:33:04  <Raynos>dominictarr: event-stream will soon be https://github.com/Raynos/routil/blob/master/index.js
18:33:25  <dominictarr>no, not gonna do that
18:33:58  <dominictarr>look how many people down load it a month: http://npm.im/event-stream
18:35:19  <dominictarr>yeah, stream-spec need a tidyup.
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18:53:03  <Raynos>dominictarr: think of it as how many people you get to teach that utility bags are bad
18:53:21  <Raynos>dominictarr: I bet 95% of them are higher level modules that rely on event-stream when they could rely on through / from / etc directly
18:53:28  <dominictarr>Raynos, there are way worse things than utility bags.
18:53:39  <Raynos>like Java
18:54:10  <dominictarr>I'll add a bit in the readme to say that.
18:56:10  <dominictarr>I think the core of substack's argument for fine grained modules, is that it's easier to find exactly what you need.
18:56:33  <dominictarr>and easier to maintain.
18:56:46  <dominictarr>it's only a style thing.
18:57:03  <Raynos>true.
18:57:09  <Raynos>but it's also important
18:57:10  <dominictarr>you app will not fail just because it uses underscore.
18:57:15  <Raynos>in terms of reducing file size on the client
18:57:21  <Raynos>requiring the entirity of event-stream
18:57:28  <Raynos>3 times because npm isn't optimized for filesize
18:57:29  <Raynos>is madness
18:57:42  <dominictarr>sure. I'm not gonna force anyone to minimize file size on their clients though.
18:57:49  <dominictarr>if they want to, thats up to them.
18:58:03  <dominictarr>they can pick their parts.
18:58:55  <dominictarr>Raynos, there are really strong benefits of being able to use 3 versions of underscore at once.
18:59:16  <Raynos>...
18:59:19  <Raynos>no there are not
18:59:21  <dominictarr>if you couldn't do that, strange things would happen...
18:59:33  <dominictarr>like, you buy a new toaster
18:59:38  <dominictarr>and your oven stops working
18:59:46  <dominictarr>because they have different thermostats.
19:00:12  <Raynos>dominictarr: do you have a pretty-print json stream?
19:00:21  <dominictarr>yeah.
19:00:24  <dominictarr>render
19:00:27  <dominictarr>it's really old though.
19:00:37  <Raynos>winning!
19:00:39  <dominictarr>and maybe not that pretty
19:01:00  <Raynos>it doesnt have a streaming api :(
19:01:12  <dominictarr>oh yeah, only on the command line.
19:01:25  <dominictarr>well, it's trivial anyway.
19:02:04  <dominictarr>Raynos, you never want to get into a situation where upgrading one dep breaks another part of your application that happened to need a different version of that thing.
19:02:16  <Raynos>dominictarr: I agree
19:02:20  <dominictarr>there is a name for when that happens: DEPENDENCE HELL
19:02:22  <Raynos>but in a client-side app
19:02:29  <Raynos>there is a pain to doing that
19:02:38  <dominictarr>yes, but it's only a mild pain.
19:02:39  <Raynos>which is filesize
19:02:42  <Raynos>and code duplication
19:02:59  <dominictarr>yeah, but you can easily check for that with npm ls
19:03:07  <dominictarr>and then fix it when you have the time
19:03:24  <dominictarr>that it better than being forced to upgrade EVERYTHING right NOW
19:03:38  <dominictarr>just because the module system can't handle multiple versions.
19:03:47  <dominictarr>WAY WAY BETTER
19:04:21  * _sorensenjoined
19:05:04  <dominictarr>like, what is the bigger butthurt? spending hours fixing something that already worked, or downloading a little bit more?
19:05:33  <dominictarr>if you didn't have support for multiple versions, I think an even worse thing would happen:
19:05:57  <dominictarr>you'd get into dependency hell, and then just revert that commit, and not fix the problem.
19:06:24  <dominictarr>that is a way worse outcome for the human race than downloading a few more k.
19:08:53  <dominictarr>substack, I'm kinda tempted to go to hu.js
19:09:39  <dominictarr>the flight would only be 1K nzd and then the tickets to the actual conference are only $40
19:11:27  <dominictarr>oh fuck, same price to sfo... berlin is way closer to places than NZ!
19:13:58  * idletomquit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
19:17:15  <dominictarr>Raynos, merged your cleanup into scuttlebutt.
19:18:11  <Raynos>dominictarr: uncleanup the data / write stuff :P
19:18:23  <dominictarr>yup, done that too.
19:18:27  <Raynos>sweet :D
19:19:04  <dominictarr>basically, I'd rather encourage people to focus the really important stuff.
19:19:15  <Raynos>dominictarr: I'm in england most of september so I need to take a cheap flight to berlin at some point
19:19:20  <dominictarr>like using the right archetecture.
19:19:24  <Raynos>I understand
19:19:36  <dominictarr>what are you doing in england?
19:20:04  <dominictarr>totes, It's pretty cheap to get around Europe!
19:20:16  <Raynos>I studied in england, my parents live there
19:20:25  <dominictarr>oh, cool.
19:20:26  <Raynos>specifically doing visa dances in england
19:20:44  <dominictarr>where are you from?
19:24:50  <Raynos>dutch
19:25:02  <Raynos>moved to england when I was 12
19:27:04  <dominictarr>cool. where abouts in england?
19:27:36  <dominictarr>I've never been there, but have several friends who are living there, and ancestry from england too.
19:31:55  * st_lukejoined
19:34:45  <dominictarr>hey Raynos ! you want to form a nko team?
20:17:13  * CAPSLOCKBOTquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
20:19:07  * doolsquit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
20:19:17  * doolsjoined
20:23:40  <Raynos>dominictarr: that's an actual good idea
20:23:42  <Raynos>when is nko again
20:24:01  <dominictarr>it's not until november, but applications have just opened.
20:24:15  <Raynos>team name?
20:24:21  <dominictarr>that is the question
20:24:27  <Raynos>whatever we build has to be distributed
20:24:28  <Raynos>and streaming
20:24:53  <dominictarr>nah, lets just do a CRUD app.
20:24:56  <dominictarr>just for a change
20:25:01  <Raynos>:D
20:25:08  <dominictarr>I know!!!
20:25:16  <dominictarr>we can write in in ruby and not tell anyone
20:25:18  <Raynos>can we go with wizards
20:25:20  <Raynos>as a team name
20:25:29  <dominictarr>teh_wizzards
20:25:35  <Raynos>that's stupid :P
20:25:45  <Raynos>but maybe that's a good thing
20:25:46  <dominictarr>teh_wizzards_of_streamz
20:26:08  <Raynos>dominictarr: what's your email
20:26:15  <dominictarr>[email protected]
20:26:50  <Raynos>dominictarr: http://nodeknockout.com/teams/teh-wizzards-of-stre
20:26:56  <Raynos>and it has been done
20:27:00  <tanepiper>what's uz talkin aboot?
20:27:40  <dominictarr>Canada, and why it's sooo great
20:28:18  <tanepiper>in less than a month I'll be married to a Canadian :D
20:29:11  <dominictarr>I noticed you where practicing the pronounciation.
20:30:46  <dominictarr>Raynos, we should find another person
20:30:48  <dominictarr>too
20:30:51  * idletomjoined
20:31:07  <Raynos>dominictarr: can we acquire substack?
20:31:46  <dominictarr>well, lets ask him.
20:31:54  <dominictarr>hey, substack!
20:32:03  <dominictarr>want to join our nko team?
20:32:37  <Raynos>should we acquire a 4th member that can do non-code things?
20:32:47  <Raynos>or are balanced teams for losers
20:34:44  <substack>ahoy!
20:34:53  <dominictarr>the important thing is how well we can work together
20:36:41  <tanepiper>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZOxtURhfEU
20:36:54  <tanepiper>GRACE HOPPER!
20:37:20  <tanepiper>oh is there a node knockout announced?
20:39:39  <dominictarr>yeah, just an hour ago
20:43:13  <substack>dominictarr: rad @ hu.js
20:43:27  <substack>if you come make sure to buy tickets then go to the nearest chinese consulate
20:43:48  <substack>need to get a travel visa to visit
20:44:05  <substack>I just got mine today from the sf consulate
20:46:15  <Raynos>substack: want to join our nko team?
20:46:58  <substack>what kind of project do you have in mind?
20:47:54  <dominictarr>_wish grace hopper was my grandma_
20:48:58  <dominictarr>I'm imagening some sort of game, but maybe that is too complicated for 48 hours.
20:52:11  <dominictarr>it's two months away, so no need to pick yet
20:52:14  <Raynos>game sounds like fun
20:52:24  <Raynos>a game is easy
20:52:32  <Raynos>we spend the next two months building irrelevant / unrelated games
20:52:41  <Raynos>end up with 50 npm modules for doing one thing well related to games
20:52:45  <Raynos>then build a game for nko
20:52:49  <substack>http://github.com/substack/tilemap
20:52:52  <chapel>well
20:52:53  <chapel>the way you guys do modules
20:53:03  <chapel>will be really easy to piece something together by the time competition rolls around
20:53:21  <Raynos>I'm building a game atm
20:53:22  <chapel>a little glue and you have a fully functional 'something'
20:53:24  <dominictarr>the way we make modules we could make a game contruction kit for nko
20:53:52  <chapel>haha
20:53:55  <substack>we could map npm
20:54:03  <chapel>no
20:54:05  <chapel>make npm a game
20:54:10  <chapel>:)
20:54:18  <substack>npm - the game
20:55:13  <substack>substack has 288 public repos and 1337 followers
20:55:38  <dominictarr>you could fly through computational space, shooting down bugs and strapping on extra modules to give your ship more fire power
20:56:13  <substack>maybe a game that you play by doing git pushes
20:56:44  <dominictarr>I've been thinking about ideas for games where players have to interact in high lever ways
20:57:08  <chapel>lever?
20:57:10  <chapel>:P
20:57:17  <dominictarr>like level 1 is simple, but in level two you have too lead other players some way
20:57:21  <dominictarr>or introduce them
20:57:40  <substack>I like the idea of a programming game you play via git push
20:57:43  <chapel>substack: you could make the server hosting game
20:58:03  <chapel>forget what you were calling it
20:58:07  <dominictarr>not everyone is as fast at git as you
20:58:33  <substack>http://substack.net/projects/datacenter/
20:58:35  <dominictarr>I'd like a code=magic thing in the game though
20:58:36  <substack>but I already started it
20:59:01  <dominictarr>maybe you get a repl
20:59:10  <dominictarr>and you learn spells
20:59:14  <dominictarr>(commands)
20:59:32  <dominictarr>but when you learn the "cast" magic word
20:59:50  <dominictarr>then you can start casting spells from scrolls, etc
21:00:09  <substack>s/scrolls/npm modules/
21:00:10  <dominictarr>and writing down spells and reusing them
21:00:19  <dominictarr>more or less.
21:00:46  <dominictarr>hmm, probably want some thing that gets fun fast though
21:00:57  <substack>it could be a tile map
21:00:59  <substack>with monsters
21:01:02  <dominictarr>there are lots of things for the judges
21:01:09  <substack>and you need to write a program that moves your character around
21:01:20  <dominictarr>that is a good idea
21:01:28  <substack>and you can only restart at the starting point or if you get to a resume block
21:01:47  <dominictarr>and also have it multiplayer, so you can help each other
21:01:47  <substack>at resume tiles and start tiles you get to upload new code to your character
21:01:53  <substack>yep
21:02:11  <substack>and if a monster eats you or your character gets stuck you die
21:02:20  <dominictarr>or you could have some blackout tiles
21:02:37  <chapel>I like this !
21:02:39  <dominictarr>where you have to be autonomo
21:02:40  <chapel>do it
21:02:45  <dominictarr>autonomous
21:02:57  <chapel>you have to program your character to move
21:03:02  <substack>you have to be autonomous everywhere except start and resume tiles
21:03:03  <chapel>and maybe have a resource
21:03:14  <substack>but there could be areas with restricted visibility
21:03:15  <chapel>so you can only do so many actions at a time
21:03:22  <chapel>yeah
21:03:28  <substack>yes you can only move so many tiles at a time
21:03:31  <chapel>so its kind of a mix of ai and a game
21:03:31  <dominictarr>that could be level 3
21:03:37  <dominictarr>sounds pretty hard.
21:03:43  <chapel>to make or play?
21:03:46  <substack>that way we can put the most interesting things far from the start tiles with monsters and mazes in between
21:03:46  <dominictarr>to play
21:03:59  <chapel>dominictarr: well make it easy for users to share their scripts
21:04:04  <substack>players can start out in the manual areas
21:04:07  <Raynos>dominictarr: https://gist.github.com/3540914
21:04:09  <substack>to test their scripts
21:04:17  <dominictarr>the super cool thing would be to cast spells on things in the game so that they do your bidding
21:04:23  <substack>but once they leave the gates it's automatic only until they hit another manual zone
21:04:30  <substack>yes!
21:04:41  <substack>so one way to do level progression
21:04:55  <substack>would be to have automatic regions in between the manual regions
21:04:56  <chapel>hmm, what about the code runs in their browser
21:04:58  <dominictarr>like cast a spell on a monster so that it attacks the other monsters
21:05:04  <chapel>and all actions happen stream/event style
21:05:21  <substack>so for the first region you just go directly east and then you get to the next region
21:05:26  <chapel>so the server sends updates to the client, and the client returns what it wants to do
21:05:27  <substack>but then there start being more obstacles
21:05:37  <substack>and you can harvest resources in the autonomous regions
21:05:43  <substack>but only with scripts
21:06:06  <dominictarr>the main resources should be equiv to memory and compute
21:06:08  <chapel>and people could make command line scripts to run their character
21:06:12  <chapel>or just the browser
21:06:18  <substack>dominictarr: yes, meta spells to control npcs would be rad for the higher elements
21:06:21  <substack>s/elements/levels/
21:06:41  <chapel>dominictarr: make it so it makes sense that is what it is, but in a setting appropriate way
21:06:41  <dominictarr>but call it mana and pizzaz or something
21:06:55  <substack>git push or http put to upload new code to your robot
21:07:07  <chapel>I really think you should have the code run remote
21:07:10  <dominictarr>too complicated. start with a repl
21:07:18  <substack>git push and http put are easy :p
21:07:23  <substack>repl is good too
21:07:23  <chapel>as in, no code is actually run on the server from clients
21:07:24  <substack>but!
21:07:27  <chapel>the clients are on their own
21:07:28  <dominictarr>not for a noob
21:07:37  <dominictarr>we are tricking them to learn programming
21:07:38  <substack>there should also be regions in between autonomous and manual to simulate radio delay
21:07:41  <chapel>so you would have a web client that ran the js in the browser
21:07:56  <chapel>and for more advanced users they could make actual programs that interface with it
21:08:01  <substack>like how driving the mars rovers around takes 15 minutes for the signal to arrive
21:08:10  <dominictarr>you could go to an alternate dimention or duplicate your self
21:09:24  <substack>the first sequence could be manual -> delayed signal region -> manual -> autonomous
21:10:27  <dominictarr>approach this with concepts, first should just be: type a command.
21:10:41  <dominictarr>next should be bind a command to a key (like moving)
21:10:59  <dominictarr>then you need to learn about data types
21:11:03  <dominictarr>then branching
21:11:07  <dominictarr>then looping
21:11:13  <dominictarr>then functions
21:11:22  <chapel>:D
21:11:24  <dominictarr>or hey, maybe functions should be first
21:11:29  <substack>I want it to be fun if you already know all that
21:11:41  <chapel>substack: well have a simple test option
21:11:48  <substack>there could be a shortcut from the starting point through an autonomous region
21:11:56  <substack>there is no need for "tests"
21:12:00  <chapel>if they can make it do a certain thing (not the same thing every time) they can bypass the 'tutorial'
21:12:15  <substack>tutorial should just be a slow progression of the environment
21:12:22  <chapel>or maybe just something where you have to actually use the code you would have learned to move on
21:12:32  <dominictarr>maybe you can make it interesting enough if you already know what an "if" means
21:12:34  <substack>and you should be able to skip it by tackling an autonomous region
21:13:00  <substack>oh I know!
21:13:05  <dominictarr>maybe all areas are available from the get go, but some are just obviously way too hard
21:13:06  <substack>there could be radio towers
21:13:15  <substack>and if you're too far from a radio tower you need to navigate autonomously
21:13:26  <substack>dominictarr: yes that
21:13:35  <dominictarr>I want wizards and magic.
21:13:52  <chapel>magic towers
21:13:57  <chapel>and you control golems
21:13:59  <dominictarr>or maybe, at first you think you are a wizard, and later you discover you are actually a robot
21:14:05  <dominictarr>magic orbs, etc
21:14:08  <substack>and there are video cameras in more places than radio towers but there are also video-free areas
21:14:19  <substack>haha yes wizard robotics
21:14:45  <chapel>tanepiper: The Knights Who Say Node
21:15:08  <dominictarr>substack, exactly.
21:15:26  <substack>the first screen could say:
21:15:29  <substack>wizard or robot
21:15:33  <substack>and you click one and that is your thing
21:16:00  <dominictarr>but what would the difference be?
21:16:01  <substack>hmm and there could be different paths for each type of character!
21:16:16  <substack>like some areas have radio coverage but no magical coverage
21:16:28  <substack>and so you need to cooperate with other players to get to some regions
21:16:31  <dominictarr>but what is the difference?
21:16:39  <dominictarr>they get different apis?
21:16:43  <Raynos>:( I have to do work. I can't join in with game idea brain storming
21:16:55  <dominictarr>wizzards have to use functional programming
21:17:00  <substack>haha
21:17:07  <dominictarr>but robots are low level instructions
21:17:17  <substack>wizards could come without a manual mode
21:17:24  <dominictarr>that is good.
21:17:27  <substack>but they have some powerful spells
21:17:46  <dominictarr>and some of what they did would be to control robots
21:18:01  <substack>but the spells are hard to use and involve recursion and fancy programming tricks
21:18:04  <dominictarr>if you start as a robot, you will become a wizzard.
21:18:18  <substack>could work!
21:18:32  <substack>robots could be impervious to ionizing radiation
21:18:39  <dominictarr>once you've learnt the mysterious ways of wizzardry
21:18:52  <dominictarr>anti-magic fields
21:18:54  <substack>yes
21:19:09  <substack>there are regions where magic doesn't work and electronics don't work
21:19:21  <substack>and electromagnetic pulses that destroy all technology in a radius
21:19:27  <dominictarr>need a way that users can create levels.
21:19:30  <substack>where only wizards may tread
21:19:32  <dominictarr>and get rewarded some way
21:19:35  <substack>yes
21:19:51  <substack>that's also a great way to circumvent the 48 hour rule
21:19:53  <dominictarr>like they earn magical power and strength by users travelling through them
21:21:05  <dominictarr>like, if you are the creator of a level, you could get a cut of the magical energy that players create by playing your level
21:21:26  <dominictarr>so if you create a fun level, you become powerful.
21:21:31  <substack>or you just feature fun levels on a leaderboard
21:21:48  <substack>reputation is a pretty effective motivator
21:22:11  <dominictarr>but imagine if it let you build way more crazy levels
21:22:22  <substack>how about
21:22:29  <substack>there is a spell you can cast to create levels
21:22:44  <substack>and you just stake out a section of the map for your level
21:23:30  <dominictarr>and then you can cast spells to add stuff
21:24:13  <dominictarr>power pyramids for sucking magical power from the moon.
21:24:36  <dominictarr>robots to haul the stones to build them bigger
21:25:00  <dominictarr>maybe you could capture other pyramids
21:25:15  <dominictarr>but you can also join someone's team.
21:26:02  <substack>power == cpu cycles and memory?
21:26:06  <substack>oh memory should cost somehow
21:26:11  <substack>you can only store so many bytes
21:26:15  <dominictarr>yeah memory = code tokens
21:27:10  <dominictarr>cycles could just be expressions eval'd persecond
21:27:11  <substack>defeating monsters should yield resources
21:27:23  <dominictarr>yeah, you get their mana
21:27:36  <substack>cpu and memory?
21:27:39  <substack>also raw materials
21:28:00  <substack>maybe only magical creatures could drop memory
21:28:05  <dominictarr>maybe just have "power"
21:28:06  <substack>and only robotic creatures would drop cpu
21:28:20  <substack>or if cpu is power then magical creatures could drop it
21:28:32  <substack>and electronic creatures drop ram
21:28:38  <dominictarr>and you trade off between how much memory and power you have
21:29:03  <substack>haha yes
21:29:12  <dominictarr>anyway, you have to hoard this stuff in your wizzard tower
21:29:12  <substack>maybe wizards could have an inherent cpu benefit
21:29:18  <dominictarr>you can carry a bit your self
21:29:19  <substack>and robots could have an inherit memory benefit
21:29:38  <substack>but then if you're a wizard you can get cyborg implants
21:29:47  <substack>and robots can get enchantments
21:29:49  <dominictarr>or you could summon demons to gather it for you
21:30:07  <substack>haha idea
21:30:21  <substack>the only keyword wizards can use is "function"
21:30:28  <substack>no if, no switch, no while, no for
21:30:34  <dominictarr>haha!
21:30:53  <substack>there could be some spell that unlocks those syntax items
21:30:56  <substack>but not for a while
21:31:05  <substack>and then robots can't use functions
21:31:18  <substack>or can't *define* functions
21:31:21  <substack>can only call functions
21:31:22  <dominictarr>yeah, you have to earn them
21:31:40  <substack>can do all of this with falafel
21:31:46  <substack>pretty easy
21:31:47  <dominictarr>exactly
21:32:34  <substack>maybe the builtins could also be unlocked
21:32:46  <substack>like you beat a monster and then you get strings
21:32:58  <substack>yeah this lends itself very well to levels
21:33:04  <dominictarr>or RegExp
21:33:07  <substack>yep
21:33:17  <substack>RegExp is deep in magical territory
21:33:33  * wiwilliaquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:33:34  <substack>you need to beat a powerful dark wizard to get it
21:33:34  <dominictarr>you could have some monster that can only be defeated with an efficent algorithm
21:33:51  <substack>the regexp monster could throw string attacks at you!
21:33:56  <substack>that you need to solve without regexp
21:34:01  <substack>that are trivially solved with regexp
21:34:03  <dominictarr>and he's useing it one you in some neferious way
21:34:18  <dominictarr>like changing the names of everything so your spells get confused
21:34:28  <chapel>are you guys documenting these ideas?
21:34:32  <substack>how would attacks work?
21:34:52  <dominictarr>it's just a fire ball that hurts you
21:34:54  <substack>it should be possible to deflect attacks with code
21:35:03  <substack>but how?
21:35:14  <dominictarr>but you can interact by finding that object and applying another force to it
21:35:21  <dominictarr>so it moves in a different way
21:35:36  <substack>finding could be good
21:35:47  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
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21:35:48  <substack>that could be one category of attack
21:35:50  <substack>woot!
21:35:51  <dominictarr>first you just have to iterate over the objects
21:36:02  <dominictarr>but later, you write jquery
21:36:45  <substack>attacks could have different timing profiles too
21:36:50  <dominictarr>so your like where({type: 'monster'}).move(towards('evilWizzard'))
21:36:56  <substack>so you need to have enough cpu and an efficient enough algorithm to beat some attacks
21:37:04  <dominictarr>exactly
21:37:21  <dominictarr>can't waste all your time iterating over all the things
21:37:30  <dominictarr>need to be smarter
21:37:40  <substack>one of them should require you to use binary search
21:37:53  <dominictarr>and have random elements, so that hardwired scripts don't work
21:37:58  <substack>and another is only deflectable with dynamic programming
21:37:59  <substack>yep
21:38:22  <substack>how would the type of attack be documented so people could write defensive spells?
21:38:28  <dominictarr>yeah! like say there is another wizzard and you have to grab the magic wand first
21:38:34  <dominictarr>quick draw
21:38:42  <substack>I suppose once we figure that out then we can get offensive spells for free
21:38:53  <dominictarr>but if you arn't fast enough, he'll use it on you
21:39:10  <dominictarr>and say you play 3 rounds, so getting lucy is not enough
21:39:18  <substack>some should be purely spatial attacks too
21:39:18  <dominictarr>lucky
21:39:35  <dominictarr>yeah, that stuff is familiar to other games
21:39:41  <substack>like fireballs that move along a path defined by a function
21:39:44  <substack>and you need to dodge
21:39:54  <substack>but once you get hit you can inspect the source
21:39:54  <dominictarr>everything would have x, y, and type
21:40:20  <substack>but some attacks could be polymorphic mutating functions
21:40:31  <substack>with cryptography
21:41:24  <dominictarr>we'd need some way to not let the player just over write fireball.move()
21:41:36  <substack>Object.freeze()
21:41:40  <dominictarr>oh thats good
21:41:56  <dominictarr>but still attach spells to it
21:42:00  <chapel>sounds like you guys are enjoying yourself
21:42:16  <substack>chapel: I've wanted to make a game like this for so long
21:42:21  <dominictarr>me too
21:42:26  <chapel>yeah its something Ive wanted as well
21:42:33  <chapel>Im glad you guys are looking into it
21:42:40  <chapel>I will play and give feedback as needed
21:43:54  <substack>confirmed for krtconf
21:43:58  <substack>when is ko?
21:44:21  <dominictarr>not to NOVEMBER!
21:44:45  <dominictarr>maybe, at the start, you can just click on something
21:45:05  <dominictarr>and you get >rock426 on your repl
21:45:26  <dominictarr>which makes it easy for beginners
21:45:35  <dominictarr>and mouse over and you see it's props
21:46:01  <dominictarr>but you have to get smarter later on
21:47:08  * wiwilliajoined
21:47:10  <dominictarr>maybe you could have mana be _power_ not just cpu
21:47:24  <dominictarr>so once you have run out of power, you can't do anything
21:47:31  <substack>could work
21:47:40  * substackgoing to the next cafe &
21:47:48  <dominictarr>this would be easily tweakable with computational complexity
21:49:19  <Raynos>do you guys have any recommendation for graphing libraries?
21:49:22  <Raynos>other then graph-stream
21:51:29  <dominictarr>what sort of graphs?
22:03:31  <tanepiper>d3?
22:10:29  <dominictarr>whats a one liner to replace a given string in a file?
22:19:53  * ryan_stevensquit (Quit: Leaving.)
22:20:35  <dominictarr>okay, I just became friends with "sed"
22:23:41  <Raynos>maxogden: When are you at phonegap
22:24:07  <Raynos>dominictarr: I think generic graphs
22:24:22  <Raynos>tanepiper: I'm looking at d3, it feels too lightweight
22:24:25  <Raynos>and not streamy enough
22:26:10  <dominictarr>but it can dynamically update, I think i've seen demos
22:29:23  <maxogden>most d3 stuff isnt designed to support changes to the underlying data representation
22:31:59  <Raynos>maxogden: what do you recommend? Also by phonegap I mean the meetup tonight
22:32:23  <maxogden>i forget when the meetup is
22:32:24  <maxogden>7?
22:32:36  <maxogden>there isn ta good streaming data viz library that i know of
22:33:04  <tanepiper>yea, d3 is hard for that
22:33:18  <tanepiper>i'm using flot instead, although it's not svg based or idea
22:33:25  <tanepiper>but the client wants me to use it, so mehh
22:42:50  <Raynos>flot is shit apparently :P
22:42:57  <Raynos>i'll just write my own streaming data viz code
22:42:59  <Raynos>it's just SVG
22:43:10  <Raynos>dominictarr, substack: splice-stream is a disaster
22:43:25  <Raynos>We need to use use the scuttlebutt protocol
22:43:39  <Raynos>maxogden: it starts at 6.15 they claim
22:55:23  <Raynos>dominictarr, substack: for team based communication make a project summary / idea doc.
22:56:08  <Raynos>substack: invited to NKO team
23:01:15  * substackiwconfig hax to get on this really crappy wifi
23:01:21  <substack>rts and retry particularly
23:01:36  <substack>hahaha working now awesomely
23:02:02  <substack>protip: iwconfig wlan0 retry 16
23:03:26  <substack>hmmm ssh works ok but webpages are trouble still
23:03:59  <substack>or ssl pages anyways
23:04:40  <dominictarr>Raynos, we need something even more heavy duty....
23:04:57  <dominictarr>... we need AN IRC CHANNEL!!!
23:05:00  <Raynos>dominictarr: What do you mean?
23:05:02  <Raynos>Oh I see
23:05:10  <Raynos>dominictarr: But I want something in summary format
23:05:35  <dominictarr>I'm joking anyway, private gists?
23:08:02  <Raynos>BUILD ALL THE APPS IN SVG
23:08:09  <Raynos>dominictarr: I dont mind public stuff
23:08:21  <Raynos>if we need secrecy we can have a shared private repo. I have some private repos
23:09:49  <substack>better wifi spot
23:51:41  * _sorensenquit (Quit: _sorensen)