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00:35:24  <isaacs>kewl
00:35:35  <isaacs>substack: i'm working on the post-structuralism talk.
00:35:42  <substack>neat
00:36:00  <isaacs>substack: it's morphed into a discussion of anthropology, primatology, and the harmful effects of civilization on homonids.
00:37:05  <isaacs>substack: we domesticated ourselves 10,000 years ago, and we've been living in captivity ever since. OSS communities is the first tip-toe out of the structural bonds.
00:37:10  <substack>well structuralism just emphasizes the whole over the parts
00:37:11  <isaacs>s/is/are/
00:37:36  <substack>but for modules we should really just be concerned with understanding the parts in isolation
00:37:41  <substack>because the parts should compose cleanly
00:37:45  <isaacs>sure.
00:37:56  <isaacs>so, by the end of this, it will probably not be much about post-structuralism anyway
00:38:33  <isaacs>except insofar as the idea of the overarching governance of The Platform is, at its core, an inessential and net-harmful idea
00:38:53  <isaacs>and anyway, "post-*ism" labels are a bit silly :)
00:39:04  <substack>postism
00:39:10  <isaacs>node is closer related to hypermodernism than postmodernism
00:39:20  <isaacs>which is like post-postmodern
00:39:51  <isaacs>and a bunch of these terms come from the fact that esthetics is an ultimately content-free academic wank-fest.
00:39:59  <substack>basically
00:40:57  <isaacs>but, if you look at npm+node, and our view of scarcity, freedom, and sharing, it looks a lot more like hunter-gatherer style communities than "civilized" groups.
00:41:27  <isaacs>the *assumption* in node is that software is open sourced, and if it's not, the assumption is that it's probably no good.
00:41:41  <isaacs>that's not brand new to node, of course.
00:42:11  <isaacs>but node is bringing it places it wasn't welcome before.
00:48:05  <substack>node is really about specialization
00:48:12  <substack>do one thing well
00:49:10  <substack>a lot of software previously couldn't do that because there was too much friction creating and maintaining individual projects that they needed to band functionality together into larger projects
00:49:15  <substack>but now that has flipped
00:51:13  <substack>because it's so easy to publish and maintain software compared to the past
01:03:07  <isaacs>substack: right. if you want a big community, start with a small core.
01:03:18  <isaacs>and focus on making it easy to share.
01:12:28  <fotoverite>There still needs to be a social contract though
01:13:39  <isaacs>fotoverite: howso?
01:13:59  <isaacs>fotoverite: you mean, in the tom dale "people need to stop open sourcing stuff that isn't ready" kind of sense?
01:14:44  <fotoverite>I think captivity is a bit harsh of a word for civilization.
01:14:49  <fotoverite>No Tom dale is also wrong
01:15:15  <fotoverite>OSS at is core is about open sourcing everything. But it comes with a commitment to what you create
01:15:23  <fotoverite>There's no such thing as ready
01:15:32  <fotoverite>WHat is ready enterprise. Who gets to decide
01:15:39  <isaacs>fotoverite: in anthropological terms, "civilization" generally considered to be the advent of cities, agriculture, and writing.
01:15:56  <isaacs>and i'm not sure there necessarily needs to be a commitment to what you create.
01:16:15  <fotoverite>Issacs: But that's different then capitivity
01:16:15  <isaacs>i mean, i've written a lot of modules that i don't maintain.
01:16:32  <isaacs>fotoverite: in the "bred in captivity" sense.
01:16:37  <isaacs>fotoverite: we're not living in the wild.
01:16:46  <isaacs>we're domesticated.
01:16:52  <fotoverite>Nothing stops us from returning though. The social contract is something we agree too.
01:17:28  <fotoverite>Which is fine right now but what 5 or ten years down the line.
01:17:38  <fotoverite>Node is going to be with us a long long time.
01:18:24  <isaacs>in pre-civilization societies, there was absolutely a social contract
01:18:38  <isaacs>i mean, we didn't get to the point where we could build cities without working together :)
01:18:52  <substack>ideally we should be writing software that we don't need to maintain
01:19:06  <substack>narrow enough scope to be finished
01:19:09  <fotoverite>Agreed small wheels
01:19:15  <isaacs>yes.
01:19:24  <fotoverite>Much smaller then what a lot of people write at the moment
01:19:29  <isaacs>and the social contract should be to share, and help rather than complain.
01:19:33  <substack>bugs turn into features given long enough anyhow
01:19:51  <fotoverite>LoL Well that might be true but sometime a bug is simply a bug
01:19:53  <isaacs>rather than the social contract being: I give it to you, and you ask me (and pay) for changes.
01:19:55  <substack>many of my modules are far too big
01:20:11  <substack>and as punishment I have to deal with people posting issues all the time
01:20:18  <fotoverite>The Unix hater guide is an interesting alternative viewpoint
01:20:22  <fotoverite>Compeltely whiny viewpoint
01:20:24  <substack>with my sufficiently small modules I don't need to maintain them at all
01:20:25  <substack>they just work
01:20:41  <substack>and they'll keep on working forever so long as core doesn't fuck that up
01:20:47  <fotoverite>Till ecma6 breaks them all somehow. Or we are force to write coffee script. :D
01:22:10  <fotoverite>Worse is better than right is something I'm rereading to see if I really agree with.
01:22:37  <fotoverite>Tom Dale major problem was he attacked somebody. There was no point in that whatsoever
01:24:36  <fotoverite>Issacs: what are you reading right now that is informing your talk?
01:24:58  <isaacs>fotoverite: i've been reading a bunch of stuff lately.
01:25:16  <isaacs>fotoverite: i mean, anthropology has been a pet interest of mine forever.
01:25:51  <isaacs>fotoverite: most recently, i just finished Sex at Dawn, which is a pretty good overview of a lot of what makes humans so neat.
01:26:18  <fotoverite>isaacs: film criticism mine. I was jumping up and down when some mentioned Capra at JSCONFEU
01:26:34  <isaacs>fotoverite: in particular, it shoots about a million holes in the Pinger and Keeler theories that human civilization was warlike before cities.
01:26:53  <fotoverite>Isaacs: I liked sex and dawn but wanted more in depth. But that mostly because I haven't as read as much.
01:26:54  <isaacs>er, before agriculture. not sure if you'd call the first persistent settlements "cities"
01:27:42  <isaacs>fotoverite: this book comes highly recommended, but i've been hesitant to buy it, because it's huge, not available on kindle, and i'm cheap: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0521400163/ref=rdr_ext_tmb
01:28:10  <fotoverite>Ugh 148
01:28:13  <isaacs>yeah
01:28:15  <isaacs>it's a textbook
01:28:25  <fotoverite>Oh used for 45
01:28:48  <fotoverite>Worth it for that. Buying now
01:28:52  <isaacs>the problem with sex at dawn is that it had a lot of choir-preaching in it
01:29:10  <isaacs>and a lot of claims were very overstated.
01:29:12  <fotoverite>It was for mass consumption it needs that.
01:29:15  <isaacs>sure.
01:29:23  <fotoverite>Same with the paradox of choice
01:29:34  <fotoverite>Or even bright sided. Very smart thoughts wrapped too cleanly
01:29:46  <isaacs>the biological basis for nonmonogamous instincts was fascinating, though
01:29:48  <fotoverite>Nothing is actually clean and simple when it comes to sociology.
01:33:05  <isaacs>fotoverite: the thing that's really fascinating is not just looking at chimps (and humans) in immediate-return, fiercely egalitarian environments as being peaceful, but also that we STOP being peaceful in response to specific stimulus.
01:33:16  <isaacs>fotoverite: you can see examples of this all over the place.
01:33:40  <fotoverite>Scarcity of resources mostly.
01:33:49  <isaacs>fotoverite: in fact, even in OSS communities, people sometimes get weirdly territorial, jsut because they're trained to think that way
01:34:14  <isaacs>fotoverite: right, but not just scarcity of resources, per se, but scarcity of territory where those resources can be had.
01:34:27  <isaacs>fotoverite: the chimps in the second gombe study got MORE food than the chimps in the first.
01:34:28  <substack>especially in libraries "competing" with each other
01:34:30  <isaacs>but it was all in one place
01:34:37  <isaacs>substack: right
01:34:51  <substack>libraries should compete with each other
01:34:54  <substack>that is a feature
01:35:04  <fotoverite>They need to. But they all must actually be able to compete
01:35:05  <substack>that way we can discard the shit ones faster
01:35:06  <isaacs>substack: well, libraries doing similar jobs should not see themselves as competing.
01:35:16  <substack>right also that
01:35:29  <substack>just providing different interfaces for different niches
01:35:32  <fotoverite>They can serve as anchors to show what not to do.
01:35:41  <fotoverite>But if they all see too similar they create noise
01:35:56  <isaacs>substack: also, since a module can thrive outside of the "core", there's no need to "compete"
01:36:43  <fotoverite>Isaacs: we should probably define compete since it's very different then in enterprise
01:37:25  <substack>it's not too different
01:37:43  <isaacs>fotoverite: "provide similar functionality, such that it is unlikely that one would ever use both"
01:38:10  <isaacs>fotoverite: ie, you're probably not ever going to use both express AND geddy, in teh same app
01:39:17  <fotoverite>so why aren't they all working together then to make a better MVC instead. Hypothetically.
01:40:06  <fotoverite>There are plenty of reasons of course. Just how they want to construct the code being one.
01:40:36  <isaacs>fotoverite: sometimes its because they don't get along
01:40:46  <isaacs>fotoverite: or maybe they have different conflicting ideas about how it should be done.
01:40:52  <isaacs>fotoverite: but that's just the point... it's ok.
01:40:55  <isaacs>they're room for everyone.
01:41:15  <isaacs>if A and B both provide feature X, it does not naturally follow that it's "noise"
01:41:31  <isaacs>steak and chicken both provide protein, but no one talks about "competing" meat options.
01:42:13  <isaacs>it also doesn't naturally follow that the maintainers of A and B could conceivably work together to create a better A+B hybrid
01:42:19  <fotoverite>They also taste different. But one first must know what each taste to make a decision. One can decide between two easily 20 less so.
01:42:44  <isaacs>fotoverite: there's way more than 20 types of meat at the average supermarket.
01:42:55  <isaacs>fotoverite: it's actually a pretty great analogy
01:42:58  <isaacs>:)
01:43:08  <fotoverite>But how many of them do you eat. :D
01:43:29  <fotoverite>And how much time do you spend thinking about what meat you buy. Besides it being organic of course.
01:44:23  <isaacs>fotoverite: you've never gone with me to the food store, obviously :)
01:44:37  <fotoverite>Only for cigerettes
01:44:41  <isaacs>true that
01:44:52  <isaacs>i must be getting hungry, i think.
01:44:57  <isaacs>now all i want is steak
01:45:01  <fotoverite>I'm still thinking about what I really think about all of this.
01:45:12  <fotoverite>Also I'm going to be in SF from the 10th to the 15th
01:45:39  <fotoverite>So you can show me exactly how you shop if you aren't in AU or japan or somewhere else. D
01:47:04  <isaacs>yeah, i leave the 12th and come back the 22nd
01:47:47  <fotoverite>Probably not with all the travel planning. Excited to finally see oakland and the magical mecca that is github
01:47:51  <isaacs>i'm trying to find a reference, also, but i seem to recall reading somewhere that the first findings of shields and other defensive artifacts are right around the advent of farming.
01:48:12  <fotoverite>Why attack someone that has noting you need.
01:48:15  <fotoverite>nothing*
01:48:42  <fotoverite>I mean unless you need women/men there was nothing to take.
01:48:51  <fotoverite>And supporting them might be harder then going without
01:49:11  <isaacs>right
01:49:22  <isaacs>also, why fight, when the food requires all of us helping to get it
01:49:32  <isaacs>if we share what we get, then i've got insurance.
01:49:40  <isaacs>you only fight to defend territory
01:50:28  <isaacs>there is some evidence of pretty brutal murders in pre-civilized societies, but not genocides or wars.
01:50:37  <isaacs>unless you buy Keeler's bs chart
01:50:50  <fotoverite>I've haven't had the pleasure of reading keelers
01:50:59  <fotoverite>sounds very much like a milton freeman
01:56:18  <isaacs>fotoverite: howso?
01:56:45  <fotoverite>Someone who truly believes everything he spouts and works tirelessly to prove it with no caring about the raminifications
01:56:57  <fotoverite>It's a tenuous connection I admit
01:57:01  <isaacs>fotoverite: sorry, keeley
01:57:06  <isaacs>not keeler
01:57:50  <isaacs>and, i guess, the chart is pinker's, but the data comes from keeley
01:57:56  <isaacs>http://fistfulofscience.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/male-deaths-warfare.jpg
01:58:11  <isaacs>except that none of the societies pinker mentions in the chart are actually hunter-gatherers
01:58:35  <fotoverite>Whaaa, why these!
01:58:42  <isaacs>so there's a blurring between the concepts of "tribal" and "forager"
01:59:04  <isaacs>that's a chart of percentage of male deaths as a result of "warfare"
01:59:16  <isaacs>but what counts as war is very vague here, also
01:59:45  <isaacs>and all of the tribal peoples listed do farming and live in persistent settlements.
02:00:04  <fotoverite>I recognized a few that's why i'm very confused.
02:01:35  <isaacs>the yanomami are particularly interesting.
02:02:09  <isaacs>since they're a perfect example of the way that tribal people are often manipulated to fit the pet theory of an observing anthropologist
02:05:13  <isaacs>napoleon chagnon basically went around talking shit and arming two different tribes until they erupted in violence.
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04:28:12  <guybrush_>all this conversation makes me think about my opinion on tj's component
04:30:09  <guybrush_>as component.json and things not being on npm feels like noise to me :p
04:30:47  <guybrush_>or rather not being handled as node-modules
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07:19:58  <st_luke>mbalho: http://i.imgur.com/tRFNq.gif
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14:29:12  <fotoverite>st_luke: Hypnotic.
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15:35:15  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: At least 5 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 8)
15:35:22  <substack>!
15:43:07  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Encoders down: (free3), (free4)
15:43:24  <pkrumins>fixing these
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16:08:10  <pkrumins>fixed
16:08:26  <substack>\o
16:10:35  <pkrumins>o/
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16:35:14  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 19]
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17:35:14  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 7]
18:08:02  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
18:08:02  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
18:09:59  <substack>hooray
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18:35:47  <elliottcable>Is testling still a thing? I just tried using it on an old project I had apparently set up to be tested with it, and I get nothing but:
18:35:50  <elliottcable>curl: (56) Recv failure: Connection reset by peer
18:36:42  <elliottcable>substack: there, have some money. (by the way.)
18:47:29  <elliottcable>substack: even the test.js on the homepage currently won't work for me. /=
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18:50:26  <pkrumins>restarted testling, try now
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18:51:54  <elliottcable>pkrumins: golden! Thanks <3
18:52:00  <substack>elliottcable: oh noes, sorry about that!
18:52:14  <elliottcable>substack: how's life? Been a while.
18:52:50  <substack>elliottcable: check this out http://browserling.com:9009/substack/node-falafel
18:52:59  <substack>this is what the new iteration of testling will look like
18:53:14  * elliottcablegrins
18:53:19  <substack>and http://browserling.com:9009/
18:53:21  <elliottcable>substack: and that's dynamic? or records of an old run?
18:53:34  <substack>it's like how travis-ci works
18:53:45  <elliottcable>ah, I see. Cool!
18:53:54  <substack>you configure a github webhook and it runs your tests everytime you push
18:54:04  <elliottcable>we'll still be able to run directly, yes?
18:54:07  <substack>yep
18:54:16  <substack>you'll actually be able to git push directly to the end point
18:54:19  * elliottcablegrins again
18:54:24  <elliottcable>that's even better. Sexy!
18:54:51  <elliottcable>st_luke_: that guy is bobing to my music.
18:55:19  <substack>elliottcable: and we'll roll out private testling-ci support very soon after launching the main service
18:55:32  <substack>for private repos
18:56:51  <elliottcable>is it possible to run browsers in parallel? It's fairly slow to iterate, with all the setup/teardown time for browsers.
18:57:00  <elliottcable>or to keep dedicated browser isntances already set-up, something like that?
19:04:01  <pkrumins>so currently we've 4 servers for testling
19:04:09  <pkrumins>1 for ie6, 1 for ie7, 1 for ie8
19:04:22  <pkrumins>and 1 for all chromes, all operas, all firefoxes, and all safaris
19:05:29  <pkrumins>the browsers can be run in parallel but i dont think we've enabled that
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19:16:00  <substack>wow this is a really well done pull request https://github.com/substack/pushover/pull/12#issuecomment-9424436
19:16:04  <substack>fixes some important stuff too
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19:26:28  <pkrumins>elliottcable: thanks for signing up btw
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19:35:14  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 32]
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20:35:14  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 5]
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23:28:08  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Encoders down: (dev-ie8-1)
23:28:55  <pkrumins>installing flash
23:31:25  <substack>more progress http://browserling.com:9009/substack/node-falafel
23:32:13  <pkrumins>is the commit message available?
23:32:20  <pkrumins>would be great to display it as well
23:32:23  <pkrumins>together with commit hash
23:32:34  <substack>not easily right now
23:32:37  <pkrumins>kk
23:32:42  <pkrumins>substack: not looking good on windows
23:32:46  <pkrumins>missing fonts for failed
23:33:02  <pkrumins>can you make it a small image flag?
23:33:20  <substack>sure I can do that
23:33:25  <pkrumins>great!
23:33:38  <substack>but first getting the timestamp up so I can fix the sorting
23:33:44  <pkrumins>kk
23:33:50  <substack>then let's throw this up live!
23:33:55  <substack>and push some commits at it
23:34:09  <pkrumins>yes sir
23:35:14  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 31]
23:52:43  <substack>sorting fixed