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00:49:28  <substack>a lot of signups while I was offline biking around!
00:49:48  <substack>also I figured out what the relationship between dh and rsa is
00:49:58  <substack>they're different and should be handled separately
00:50:10  <substack>rsa for signing, dh for establishing a shared secret
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00:58:03  <dominictarr>hey
00:58:05  <dominictarr>fotoverite, 10.224.246.105:3000
00:58:19  <dominictarr>jden, , 10.224.246.105:3000
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01:00:12  <substack>dominictarr: ahoy!
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01:00:28  * substackfigured out all the dh/rsa confusion
01:00:39  <substack>so dh and rsa are completely different, I discovered
01:01:02  <substack>the trick is that you use rsa to sign the dh messages
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01:05:40  <dominictarr>substack, oh right. good to hear
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01:06:58  <dominictarr>yeah I think how ssh works is it uses rsa to auth the connection, then DH to exchange the a shared key, then that key to symetrically encrypt the contents.
01:26:16  <substack>I'm becoming more convinced that people make money selling software licenses and support by writing really bad software
01:27:22  <substack>if you write modular, reusable software that is more like a library with a narrow focus and less like an application then it's just finished and you can build stuff on top of it without fighting it
01:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 34]
01:28:41  <dominictarr>whatch out for companies with poor programmers and great salesmen.
01:35:16  <st_luke_>that's this place
01:36:08  <Raynos>substack: :D
01:36:09  <dominictarr>QUIT YOUR JOB AND LIVE IN A TREE FOR A BIT
01:36:09  <LOUDBOT>IS IT REALLY?
01:36:20  <Raynos>substack: people make money by selling support for zookeeper
01:36:31  <st_luke_>substack: I've had a lot of experience with software like that, the issue becomes that even if the code written presently is good or great, the technical debt rules the direction of the project
01:36:51  <dominictarr>yeah, I've seen that too...
01:38:08  <st_luke_>companies are afraid to deprecate features or APIs because of it pissing off a paying customer that doesn't want to update their own systems/software.
01:38:30  <dominictarr>SEMVER
01:38:53  <st_luke_>personally I think that it should be someone's job to convince the high paying clients clients that deprecation is a good thing
01:38:54  <dominictarr>LOUDBOT INCENTIVISES CAPSLOCK
01:38:55  <LOUDBOT>THE VALIUM IS WEARING OFF -- MUST GO SHOPPING TO ABATE THE PAIN
01:39:37  <dominictarr>the problem is when your 'high paying clients' are also the sort of company we are talking about
01:40:18  <dominictarr>maybe solution is to spin off a wholy own subsidary to serve legacy customers.
01:40:52  <st_luke_>modular companies
01:42:01  <st_luke_>trying out nj's 'forever' module to daemonize stuff
01:44:47  <dominictarr>st_luke_, def sounds like you should quit your job.
01:45:16  <dominictarr>I've never regretted quiting, once I actually decided to.
01:46:01  <st_luke_>dominictarr: actually working on it
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01:46:09  <dominictarr>VERY GOOD
01:46:10  <LOUDBOT>IS PYTHON A FUNCTIONAL LANGUAGE OR A PROCEDURAL ONE
01:46:11  <st_luke>I'd quit flat out but health insurance
01:46:34  <dominictarr>oh shit, now I remember, this is USA.
01:48:49  <substack>dominictarr: yes semver is the answer
01:48:59  <substack>there is a reason why seaport takes versions so seriously
01:49:10  <dominictarr>very good
01:49:40  <substack>I wonder if there's a business model in charging more the further back in versions you get
01:49:50  <dominictarr>that is a very good idea
01:49:51  <substack>that's sort of what browserling does already with ie9 vs ie8, 7, 6
01:50:49  <substack>if you're careful about versioning you can keep the legacy customers around while still iterating on the new stuff
01:50:57  <dominictarr>that would create an incentive to upgrade, like, you would only provide premium support to legacy versions.
01:51:20  <substack>I'm more thinking network services
01:51:41  <substack>if you don't want to upgrade you can just throw money at the problem and keep using the old version
01:52:27  <substack>monetary incentive to keep technical debt under control so you can nimbly upgrade
01:52:37  <dominictarr>YES
01:52:40  <substack>maybe that could be a business model itself
01:52:49  <substack>providing monetary incentives for doing things correctly
01:53:07  <dominictarr>that sounds like a consultancy.
01:53:27  <dominictarr>or a hit lean-startupesq book
01:53:28  <st_luke>how are you going to find excellent programmers who are interested in spending all their time patching the incredibly old version because some company has deep pockets
01:53:39  <substack>you just have services that companies use and if they use them correctly it doesn't cost you anything
01:53:47  <dominictarr>st_luke, just use crappy programmers for that!
01:53:55  <substack>but once you start fucking up and need to use old versions it costs money
01:53:56  <st_luke>dominictarr: I guess it wouldn't make a difference that that point
01:54:02  <dominictarr>exactly.
01:54:20  <dominictarr>they are stuck, and they only have themselves to blame
01:54:25  <substack>st_luke: every big company ever is in that position
01:54:32  <substack>even non-big companies
01:54:59  <dominictarr>"big" isn't that big, like 10k sloc is already "big".
01:55:14  <substack>gigantic
01:55:28  <substack>unless that 10k sloc is spread out among 50 modules
01:55:49  <substack>which are completely separate, reusable, and up on github
01:55:58  <dominictarr>hmm, so why is that exactly?
01:55:59  <substack>and a package manager
01:56:21  <substack>it's hard to write separable modules that are tightly coupled
01:56:31  <substack>whereas it's easy to write tightly coupled application logic
01:56:55  <substack>and it's easy to write modules that are loosely coupled
01:57:06  <substack>easy things happen more often than hard things
01:57:38  <substack>but you need to tell yourself pre-emptively to look out for modularity or else it will be too late
01:57:38  <st_luke>just ran a recursive wc -l on one of the company's PHP projects
01:57:49  <st_luke>719713 sloc
01:57:53  <substack>D:
01:58:41  <dominictarr>holy fuck, that is 0.7 MILLION
01:59:17  <substack>browserling is kind of massive
01:59:24  <substack> wc -l $(find -name \*.js -or -name \*.c | grep -v node_modules)
01:59:27  <substack>39336
01:59:58  <substack>oh wait that has some vendored and bundles
02:00:45  <substack>$ wc -l $(find -name \*.js -or -name \*.c | grep -v node_modules | grep -v es5-shim | grep -v jquery | grep -v bundle)
02:00:49  <substack>7444
02:00:50  <substack>ok that's not bad
02:01:02  <st_luke>big difference
02:01:32  <substack>split up among a lot of completely separate services too
02:02:07  <substack>anyways that is 1000 times less code than that php project
02:02:09  <dominictarr>individually tested modules.
02:02:25  <dominictarr>and probably 1e3 times more useful too.
02:03:31  <substack>testling-ci is just 952 lines
02:03:40  <substack>split out between 2 services
02:05:49  <st_luke>if I subtract the lines for unit tests in that php project, it's still 719713 lines
02:06:46  <substack>the problem is that bad software can still be good at making money
02:08:04  <st_luke>windows
02:10:06  <dominictarr>I know much much better examples of bad software than windows.
02:10:31  <dominictarr>we are talking, like, the north korea of software.
02:11:04  <dominictarr>Actually, I want to organize a conference where everyone basically just does standup about really bad software they have used.
02:11:23  <dominictarr>(or worked with)
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02:15:16  <st_luke>that would be fu
02:15:16  <st_luke>n
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02:20:44  <AvianFlu>dominictarr: you'd have to not record the talks though :D
02:21:03  <dominictarr>haha. just blur out the faces.
02:21:23  <AvianFlu>either way, I wouldn't want to listen to the twitter shitstorm that would invariably result
02:21:28  <AvianFlu>but a lot of fun? yes.
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03:17:53  <dools>there's no bad software
03:17:58  <dools>there's only valuable software, or worthless software
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03:46:15  <guybrush>nice :D with a browserify-bundled webworker linenumbers are fucked again :DD debugging this is sweet
03:46:42  <guybrush>ie10 has a better worker-api for that, chrome and ff should copy that
03:58:24  <guybrush>oooh i take everything back
03:58:26  <guybrush>it actually works
03:59:06  <guybrush>at least the errorhandler, but console.log with linenumbers would be cool too
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07:23:26  <Raynos>Interesting
07:23:38  <Raynos>both firefox & chrome unstable have datachannels
07:23:44  <Raynos>p2p streams all the days
07:23:59  <Raynos>I shall make a library for tis
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07:38:38  <guybrush>whaaaaaat
07:39:43  <guybrush>No, but work on data channels is on going. -- https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/discuss-webrtc/Qav4JuuMIrk
07:39:54  <guybrush>so in unstable its already in?
07:54:39  <Raynos>yes
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10:30:02  <substack>dominictarr: it very nearly works
10:30:11  <substack>by it I mean secure-peer
10:30:16  <substack>just having issues with the end event
10:30:18  <dominictarr>ah, cool!
10:30:30  <dominictarr>what is happening?
10:30:43  <substack>not receiving 'end' for some reason
10:31:05  <substack>but the header for diffie-hellman is signed
10:31:10  <substack>and all messages are signed
10:31:17  <substack>and I got the padding and framing working
10:31:28  <substack>payloads are all encrypted
10:36:18  <dominictarr>hmm, so in ssh, each message is padded separately.
10:36:48  <dominictarr>like, each message is padded out to the right length for encryption...
10:37:23  <dominictarr>instead of encrypting the whole stream.
10:37:30  <dominictarr>is that how secure-peer works
10:37:31  <dominictarr>?
10:41:08  <substack>all fixed
10:41:18  <substack>dominictarr: yes
10:41:39  <dominictarr>AWESOME
10:41:40  <LOUDBOT>NEW BLOOD, NEW SUCKERS
10:42:18  <substack>ok publishing this
10:50:47  <substack>https://github.com/substack/secure-peer
10:56:14  <substack>and it works over any kind of stream, importantly
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11:10:59  <substack>dominictarr: you should give an eventually consistent presentation at some point
11:11:19  <substack>where the slides come from distributed processes that you spin up
11:11:45  <dominictarr>or, use no projector, everyone opens the slides on their laptops, and I can control them.
11:11:57  <substack>that would be fun too
11:13:08  <substack>side note: why are crypto libs so bad for doing peer to peer crypto
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11:13:27  <substack>it's all about "clients" and "servers" bah
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11:20:58  <dominictarr>is it possible to have an iframe that you can click in an that runs like, as a page with js inside your page?
11:21:29  <substack>just put it on the same origin and you can do whatever you please with it
11:22:25  <dominictarr>putting demos into iframes in my presentation
11:22:34  <dominictarr>so,I'll need a proxy...
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11:28:47  <substack>you won't need a proxy if the demos are on the same hostname
11:34:14  <dominictarr>localhost?
11:34:36  <dominictarr>the port matters, right?
11:37:33  <substack>yes
11:58:23  <Altreus>pkrumins: hey so the shirts are printing
11:58:28  <Altreus>I'll get mine in december
11:59:22  <dominictarr>aha, didn't need the proxy. it was actually a bug in my demo. fixed now.
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13:49:22  <rannmann>With jQuery, is there a way to call something when a page is changed in any manner (another JS script, for example)?
13:50:56  <rannmann>I wrote something that parses a bunch of links into mouseover tooltips, but when we put a shoutbox up on the site, nothing in the shoutbox is parsed. If I call the function from within the shoutbox refresh, it refreshes the tooltips every 5 seconds which makes them flash repeatedly (and interrupts users who are moused over them)
14:04:36  <rannmann>right now I solved it with a kind of lame hack. I check to see how many times a span element of a certain class shows up, and if that changes (checked each refresh) it will run again. Maybe it's the best way, I dunno.
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15:51:44  * chrisdickinsonwaves hi at dominictarr
15:52:10  <dominictarr>chrisdickinson, hey whats up?
15:52:28  <chrisdickinson>not much, just waving :D (this is chris from the substantial party.)
15:53:06  <dominictarr>I remember!
15:53:34  <chrisdickinson>do you have the link to the maximally minimal sailboat video?
15:54:38  <dominictarr>oh yeah
15:55:01  <dominictarr>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tEw_mlUh7g
15:55:13  <dominictarr>it's in french
15:55:36  <dominictarr>but here is a thing that explains the original idea http://www.scribd.com/doc/66251685/Hagedoorn-Inventing-the-Hapa
15:56:02  <chrisdickinson>awesome, thanks!
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16:16:11  <substack>oh nice secure-peer is trending https://github.com/explore
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16:38:49  <substack>more tests for secure-peer
16:38:58  <substack>fixed another nasty 'end' event bug
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16:56:59  <jden|away>dominictarr: is that the thing you were telling me about yesterday?
16:58:53  <jden|away>watching now - that's super cool
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17:56:15  <Raynos>dominictarr: we should do some brainstorming around making a clean streaming API for webrtc datachannels
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18:14:44  <substack>node knockout tomorrow woo
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18:16:57  <substack>oh sweet somebody who knows crypto security did a once-over on secure-peer
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18:28:27  <substack>https://github.com/substack/secure-peer/issues
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18:32:19  <mbalho>YES LETS MAKE NODE A WEBRTC FIRST CLASS CITIZEN
18:32:20  <LOUDBOT>SOMEDAY I'LL BE A BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLY AND YOU'LL BE SORRY
18:32:34  <mbalho>and now for something completely different http://bl.ocks.org/4040610
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18:41:06  <Raynos>mbalho: that's hard
18:41:15  <Raynos>mbalho: Can you do that please.
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21:20:50  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
21:20:50  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
21:21:20  <substack>\o/
21:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 35]
21:28:29  <chapel>substack: you still doing nko?
21:28:33  <substack>yep
21:29:16  <chapel>doing the game?
21:30:16  <substack>yes
21:39:57  <chapel>cool
21:40:02  <chapel>can't wait to see it in action :)
21:40:12  <chapel>definitely ping us in here when you want to test it
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22:05:12  <substack>dominictarr: already got an email from somebody who did a quick cryptanalysis of secure-peer
22:05:22  <dominictarr>haha awesoem
22:05:27  <dominictarr>what did they say?
22:05:41  <substack>I put them in the issues https://github.com/substack/secure-peer/issues
22:05:51  <substack>https://github.com/substack/secure-peer/issues/1 is the biggest issue
22:06:05  * thatguydanjoined
22:06:19  <substack>fixing some cipher padding bugs first
22:06:46  <dominictarr>yay open source
22:07:31  <dominictarr>substack, hey when does nko start?
22:07:53  <dominictarr>it's on friday evening, right?
22:09:12  <substack>yep
22:09:28  <substack>I'll be over at joyent with my laptop and wacom
22:09:29  <AvianFlu>3PM PST
22:09:30  <LOUDBOT>YOU TAPED FRIENDS AND FRASIER BUT WHAT THE FUCK HAPPEND TO WINGS???
22:09:35  <substack>oh that's early!
22:09:44  <AvianFlu>KEEP YOUR PEDESTRIAN TASTES TO YOURSELF MR. BOT
22:09:44  <LOUDBOT>MAGNET, HOW THE FUCK DOES IT WORK
22:09:53  <AvianFlu>BY AGGRESSIVE PLURALIZATION
22:09:53  <LOUDBOT>BUT ... BUT THE ECOSYSTEM!
22:09:56  <substack>dominictarr: one of the first things I'll do is make some art assets I think
22:10:05  <AvianFlu>DON'T EVEN ECOSYSTEM ME YOU DAMN DIRTY BOT
22:10:06  <LOUDBOT>YOU ASSHOLES: '+' IS VALID IN EMAIL ADDRESSES OK?? CUT IT OUT
22:10:39  <dominictarr>my talk is at 5pm, so I can't start until after that.
22:10:46  <substack>ok that's fine
22:11:05  <substack>Raynos: when if your talk?
22:11:12  <substack>*is
22:11:35  <dominictarr>Raynos isn't here, unless he is somewhere else?
22:11:46  <dominictarr>I thought he was in SF?
22:12:03  <substack>oh I thought he was talking at cascadia?
22:12:25  <substack>anyways irc+github is the best medium to collaborate on these things
22:12:28  <substack>so it's not very important
22:14:31  * mikealjoined
22:14:31  <substack>I like that our team has the 2nd, 3rd and 4th amount of modules on npm
22:20:01  <Raynos>oh hi
22:20:07  <Raynos>substack, dominictarr: oh hi
22:20:46  <Raynos>im not at cascadia
22:20:51  <Raynos>i'll be at joyent headquarters
22:20:55  <Raynos>meeting substack
22:20:59  <Raynos>and busting out a MVP for the game
22:21:04  <dominictarr>between us, we probably have about 2-3% of npm.
22:21:09  <Raynos>Well actually my first job is to get to tojyent early
22:21:15  <Raynos>and find a whiteboard
22:21:17  <Raynos>and claim it
22:24:00  * thatguydanquit (Quit: thatguydan)
22:24:19  <Raynos>Have you guys used mdb before?
22:26:06  <substack>Raynos: oh sweets
22:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 21]
22:31:35  <substack>Raynos: on saturday you should come to the hackería with jjjohnnny and I
22:31:46  <Raynos>i dont know what that is
22:31:54  <Raynos>but its more efficient for me to follow you around all weekend
22:31:59  <substack>new hacker house in oakland
22:32:03  <substack>yes
22:32:06  <Raynos>oh wait
22:32:07  <substack>follow me around yes do that
22:32:08  <Raynos>you said new house
22:32:11  <Raynos>I need a place to live.
22:32:26  <Raynos>the current place sucks
22:32:45  <substack>we're all full up right now
22:32:47  <Raynos>How the hell do you find new houses
22:32:59  <substack>knowing folks
22:33:46  <Raynos>yeah
22:33:49  <Raynos>I need to know more folks
22:34:42  * juliangruberquit (Quit: juliangruber)
22:37:18  <dominictarr>Raynos, do some talks at meet ups.
22:37:24  <Raynos>yeah
22:37:27  <Raynos>I tried to set some up
22:37:35  <dominictarr>I want to organise some meetup talks when I am down there too.
22:38:11  <dominictarr>we should just make a madscience.js meetup.
22:38:33  <dominictarr>where we encourage people to talk about really crazy ideas that arn't finished yet.
22:39:08  <dominictarr>and also... organise speakers, but don't tell anyone what the subject is about. instead you just have to come and hear it.
22:40:58  <jjjohnnny>yeah lets have some forum
22:41:33  <jjjohnnny>a city of the future panel
22:42:12  <dominictarr>just need a projector, and a garage.
22:42:33  <jjjohnnny>and chairs
22:42:37  <substack>the hackería has a sweet mad science garage / basement
22:42:41  <substack>just need a projector
22:42:45  <dominictarr>perfect.
22:43:04  <dominictarr>or use blankets and people can sit on the floor.
22:44:33  <dominictarr>if there is no projector, just do the talk like this: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDUQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.metacafe.com%2Fwatch%2Fsy-187835137%2Fbob_dylan_subterranean_homesick_blues_official_music_video%2F&ei=uDWcUJ-VHeOJjALyvYHIBw&usg=AFQjCNFs1XcCd7-4uAwEElNSZEZ2fV3ngg
22:45:58  <julian_>what about remote speakers?
22:46:03  <substack>dominictarr: we already have cards like that
22:46:18  <substack>they're in the basement
22:46:20  <substack>empty
22:46:22  <substack>waiting for content
22:46:38  <jjjohnnny>why not have everybody bring their laptop and pipe the presentation to their screen
22:46:49  <jjjohnnny>like a drive in movie
22:47:07  * julian_changed nick to juliangruber
22:47:15  * anoemiquit (Quit: anoemi)
22:47:55  <dominictarr>WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY
22:47:56  <LOUDBOT>I FEEL LIKE I HEARD ABOUT IT OK. GTFO
22:49:01  <dominictarr>we can probably find a projector, they arn't that hard to find.
22:55:07  <jjjohnnny>http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ele/3374843323.html
22:58:59  <dominictarr>BUY IT NOW
22:59:00  <LOUDBOT>SHUT THE FUCK UP JB YOU CUNTBITCHWHORE
22:59:07  <jjjohnnny>WELCOME TO HACKISTANZA
22:59:07  <LOUDBOT>REALLY I JUST WANT MY CAT TO NOT FART WHEN I AM PRESENT.
22:59:54  * anoemijoined
23:03:10  <substack>actually hackistanza is better, going with that now
23:03:13  * thatguydanjoined
23:03:52  <jjjohnnny>hackastanza is all aaaaa
23:04:43  <jjjohnnny>also pronouced in some regions hackastanzo
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23:09:25  <st_luke>LOUDBOT: !twitlast
23:09:26  <LOUDBOT>st_luke: EXCUSE ME MISTER LOUD BUT YOUR APPLES ARE NOT ECONOMICALLY SOUND
23:10:43  <isaacs>substack: where you moving to?
23:11:02  <substack>isaacs: logan street off of fruitvale ave
23:17:04  * niftylettucejoined
23:17:22  <niftylettuce>substack: hey how can i redirect http to https w/bouncy?
23:17:28  <substack>yes
23:17:30  <substack>just stream it
23:17:41  <substack>or send a 302 to the http stream
23:17:53  <niftylettuce>substack: can you explain more?
23:18:31  <niftylettuce>didnt work for me with 302
23:18:59  <niftylettuce>o i think i know what might be wrong
23:21:46  * klusiasquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 14, free: 20]
23:35:53  <dominictarr>hackistanza is your house?
23:37:53  <substack>yes
23:38:00  <substack>name just picked
23:38:12  <dominictarr>ah, cool. oh, what is the address? I'm gonna send the ar-drone there
23:38:40  <substack>3276 logan street, oakland ca 94601
23:41:07  <dominictarr>cool.
23:41:20  <st_luke>substack: where's that little virtual datacenter thing you made a while back?
23:43:04  <Raynos>mdb
23:43:07  <Raynos>is pretty fucking badass
23:43:35  <substack>st_luke: http://substack.net/projects/datacenter/
23:44:28  <st_luke>tgabjs
23:44:30  <st_luke>thanks
23:45:57  <substack>ok horrible chunk bug fixed with secure-peer
23:46:15  <substack>only the first packet actually worked before
23:49:53  <st_luke>particles in d3 are fun
23:49:53  <st_luke>http://sticky-balls.jit.su/
23:51:34  <st_luke>if you mouse over really fast it looks like it's snowing
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