00:00:07  <substack>DAYCHANGE
00:00:10  <substack>contest is over
00:00:24  <substack>pencils down
00:00:29  <substack>hand your copybook to your instructor
00:01:01  <dominictarr>okay, guys
00:01:06  <substack>deploying here
00:01:15  <substack>we're in the grace period for deployment
00:01:23  <sorensen>any of you deploy yet?
00:01:26  <substack>nodejitsu is falling over itself right now because everybody is deploying
00:01:27  <sorensen>like to check out what you guys made
00:02:14  <sorensen>i noticed
00:02:27  <sorensen>you guys know why it was only nodejitsu this year?
00:02:33  <sorensen>no linode/joyent
00:02:53  <dominictarr>joyent is partner with nodejitsu now,
00:03:21  <substack>reconnections might fuck things up with stale state
00:03:34  <substack>hopefully nobody has our thing open in their browser right now
00:03:49  <substack>everybody close your browser tabs for our app
00:04:08  <substack>if you have a tab open it will reconnect forever and virally infect everybody else with shitty stale state
00:04:24  <substack>didn't get around to writing that reset code
00:04:34  <dominictarr>there is reload code,
00:04:44  <dominictarr>but it's only tested in chrome
00:05:01  <substack>doesn't our thing have a reconnect()?
00:05:08  <substack>that will poll the server forever if it goes down
00:05:09  <Raynos>yeah we didnt set a version
00:05:11  <substack>bad bad bad to have
00:05:14  <Raynos>on the reload on the server
00:05:15  <substack>we want the state to fuck off
00:05:15  <Raynos>before deploy
00:05:31  <substack>crdt.fuckEverything()
00:05:37  <substack>should destroy all the state and history
00:06:06  <dominictarr>amageddon.
00:06:19  <dominictarr>could add that.
00:06:45  <substack>deploying still broken
00:06:54  <dominictarr>okay... so debriefing
00:07:03  <dominictarr>what worked what didn't?
00:07:19  <substack>ace didn't
00:07:27  <substack>don't touch any library like ace ever
00:07:37  <substack>its internals bleed out into everything else and make a mess
00:07:45  <substack>crdt works well
00:07:50  <substack>raphael seems like it didn't buy us much
00:07:54  <substack>could have just used the dom
00:07:55  <dominictarr>agree
00:08:13  <dominictarr>the panning stuff got in the way
00:08:17  <substack>yes
00:08:17  <dominictarr>too much indirection
00:08:47  <substack>maybe just work in absolute coords
00:08:49  <substack>and move the dom
00:08:52  <substack>move a div
00:08:54  <substack>around
00:09:01  <substack>so you never need to use relative coords ever
00:09:10  <dominictarr>we'll either way, we didn't start with the right arch for a game.
00:09:15  <Raynos>yeah
00:09:20  <Raynos>we didnt do enjoy planning
00:09:22  <Raynos>or any
00:09:24  <Raynos>for the architecture
00:09:27  <Raynos>and we just winged shit
00:09:31  <substack>planning wouldn't have helped
00:09:35  <dominictarr>we needed some MVC sort of thing
00:09:42  <substack>no
00:09:47  <substack>just better libraries
00:09:52  <substack>a game engine library
00:09:56  <substack>that handles positioning
00:10:01  <dominictarr>I mean, crdt was the model
00:10:01  <substack>and making sprites
00:10:04  <substack>but only those things
00:10:17  <dominictarr>we needed something that handled the view better
00:10:27  <Raynos>we do?
00:10:34  <substack>I don't think the html part got in the way as much
00:10:35  <Raynos>we just needed to handle the view better ourself
00:10:45  <dominictarr>I mean the sprite view
00:10:48  <Raynos>And probably an SVG abstraction that didnt suck balls
00:10:53  <substack>not svg
00:10:55  <substack>just dom
00:10:59  <dominictarr>canvas?
00:11:09  <substack>not canvas
00:11:10  <substack>just dom
00:11:16  <substack>a sprite lib for the dom
00:11:30  <substack>and a lib for doing an infinite dom world
00:11:43  <dominictarr>okay, well it def would have been better to spend more time on game mech
00:11:52  <Raynos>yeah
00:11:57  <Raynos>we do have working code though
00:12:01  <Raynos>you can try stuff
00:12:04  <dominictarr>it was hard to get that tested properly
00:12:07  <Raynos>like `self.move(self.whatDist(id))`
00:12:16  <dominictarr>that works?
00:12:20  <Raynos>and `self.hear(function (msg) { self.say("I ECHO " + msg) })`
00:12:27  <Raynos>yeah I fixed things so those two examples work
00:12:34  <dominictarr>sweet!
00:12:41  <Raynos>and you can click yourself
00:12:44  <Raynos>and edit your own code
00:12:47  <Raynos>and program yourself
00:12:50  <substack>oh yeah that part is boss
00:12:52  <Raynos>well you can program anything
00:13:03  <substack>you can reprogram other players too
00:13:15  <dominictarr>so, I had this idea near the end that maybe wizards is quite complicated
00:13:21  <dominictarr>thought of a simpler setup
00:13:27  <dominictarr>ameobas
00:14:00  <Raynos>we need to do: http://nodeknockout.com/teams/teh-wizzards-of-stre/edit
00:14:01  <dominictarr>they just blob around and can eat things < 0.1 times thier siz.
00:14:17  <substack>the interesting dynamic is just that you can reprogram the environment
00:14:21  <substack>whatever the constraints are
00:14:27  <substack>even if there are no constraints it can still be fun
00:15:27  <dominictarr>it can, but I think the constrains is what is most interesting.
00:15:30  <dominictarr>although
00:15:39  <dominictarr>that idea was probably too ambitious
00:15:56  <dominictarr>constraintless enviroment is much simpler
00:16:55  <substack>that's what we have now basically
00:17:00  <substack>you can just reprogram all the elements
00:17:01  <substack>fun!
00:17:16  <dominictarr>make the trees run around
00:17:17  <dominictarr>etc
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00:18:25  <dominictarr>okay, so what do we have to do to fully submit it?
00:21:50  * mikealquit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
00:21:53  <dominictarr>so it was pretty easy to user crdt... but we probably wanted messages for somethings too
00:22:00  <dominictarr>like, cast, and result
00:22:13  <dominictarr>that really is a rpc thing
00:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 24]
00:33:07  <Raynos>dominictarr: we have to finisht the redeploy
00:33:08  <Raynos>make a video
00:33:12  <Raynos>and submit text
00:33:25  <Raynos>dominictarr: http://nodeknockout.com/teams/teh-wizzards-of-stre
00:33:30  <dominictarr>I saw it
00:33:31  <Raynos>need an entry for our stuff
00:33:54  <dominictarr>are you and substack at same place
00:33:54  <dominictarr>?
00:34:48  <Raynos>yes we are
00:35:51  <dominictarr>you are probably best placed to make the video... I could log on and drive the game though
00:36:12  <substack>I've got a good mic at home
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00:54:09  <blakmatrix>substack: I am seeing this in your app https://gist.github.com/2077c58ea9460ab50fff
00:54:34  <blakmatrix>thats what happend when i tried to connect and saw the "An error has occurred: {"bytesParsed":0,"code":"HPE_INVALID_CONSTANT"}"
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01:04:41  <dominictarr>blakmatrix, that is not an http port
01:05:02  <dominictarr>oh... that should be the internal tcp port, and 3000 is the http port...
01:05:15  <Raynos>substack: https://gist.github.com/a9e494155e7da755e7aa
01:05:38  <Raynos>substack: ill go up and you troll me?
01:05:54  <dominictarr>but... nodejitsu does "clever" stuff to detect the port.
01:06:40  <substack>clever broken bullshit leaky abstractions
01:06:52  <dominictarr>to make it "easy"
01:07:01  <substack>easy === leaky
01:09:04  * zz_shykeschanged nick to shykes
01:13:30  <dominictarr>that is basically what I said when I was at nodejitsu...
01:14:11  <dominictarr>okay, so the fix is to use a udp port instead of a tcp port
01:14:25  <dominictarr>I hope they detect that...
01:14:37  <dominictarr>for deploy to something other than nodejitsu
01:15:34  <dominictarr>maybe even adding the separate process stuff to after http.createServer().listen might work...
01:15:49  <dominictarr>but, of course we arn't allowed to make any more changes...
01:23:30  <substack>domain change: http://wizardz.jit.su
01:25:02  <blakmatrix>substack: sec
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01:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 7, free: 13]
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01:57:50  <substack>dominictarr, Raynos: great work \o
01:58:13  <dominictarr>what happened?
01:59:20  <substack>just finished I mean
02:00:15  <substack>so scuttlebutt really needs a way to discard history
02:00:41  <substack>this app is a good test platform to experiment with that approach
02:01:49  <substack>or maybe it's just the process runner
02:02:19  <substack>I want to hack up a version that runs the code in people's browsers with webworkers
02:03:11  <substack>crashed again
02:04:24  <substack>ok it's back and it's playable again
02:04:43  <substack>should have put a setTimeout(process.exit, 60 * 5 * 1000) into it
02:10:16  <dominictarr>resetting the server *should* restart all the clients, and reinitialize the data.
02:11:20  <dominictarr>substack, we could definately add an obliterate/armageddon message that sets a "new zero" at a given vector-clock.
02:12:38  <dominictarr>A think that concerns me, is some way to replicate the calculations, but merge them somehow.
02:13:14  <substack>yes it seems to get better when the server restarts itself
02:13:33  <dominictarr>maybe, using a different model... like, let the different nodes 'vote' on how the entities should move etc.
02:13:55  <dominictarr>substack, hmm, probably want some analytics on this. memory leak?
02:14:00  <substack>a game doesn't need to be particularly secure
02:14:11  <substack>well isn't crdt inherently a giant memory leak?
02:14:15  <substack>in that it just keeps saving history
02:14:37  <blakmatrix>my client seized up right as i exited i saw a maximum stack size exceeded error pop up from my wizard as i closed the window
02:14:39  <dominictarr>no, it discards old updates that arn't relevant anymore
02:16:04  <Raynos>dominictarr: https://github.com/nko3/foojs
02:16:16  <dominictarr>blakmatrix, if your code errors, it appears above your head
02:18:19  <dominictarr>haha, cool.
02:19:32  <dominictarr>he will be disapointed to discover I already have the kv module
02:19:50  <substack>oh I see!
02:19:54  <substack>that's neat @ old updates
02:20:02  <substack>maybe it's mostly the browser code that doesn't scale then
02:20:10  <substack>on account of too much stuff in the dom
02:20:30  <substack>something a proper sprite / map lib could fix
02:26:18  <dominictarr>yeah, def some benchmarking to be done shortly.
02:27:02  <dominictarr>especially since nearForm is feeding me, and they want to use it commersially and on phones.
02:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 5, free: 23]
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02:28:02  <substack>jjjohnnny just created a hoard of followers
02:28:05  <substack>in the game
02:28:07  <substack>it's awesome
02:31:43  <substack>ok I harvested some monsters with faulty coordinates and put them at the origin
02:43:54  <dominictarr>substack, AvianFlu Raynos I think I have found the perfect location for wrongconf http://ryugyonghotel.com/index.html
02:44:25  <Raynos>whats wrongconf?
02:47:32  <dominictarr>it's a conference where all the talks are basically just standup about horrible horrible systems you have worked with
02:51:30  <dominictarr>I'm seeing a bunch of SVG's stuck to the top right corner of the screen.
02:54:32  <substack>they have coords that are too big so they NaN out or some such
02:54:36  <substack>they're all in exponential notation
02:54:47  <substack>you can reset them on the tome tab
02:54:58  <substack>just set them to (0,0) or wherever
03:07:03  <substack>ok haha
03:07:34  <substack>pull from me and go to http://localhost:3000/?shoe=http://wizardz.jit.su/shoe
03:07:59  <substack>you'll be sync'd with the server running at wizardz.jit.su >:D
03:08:07  <substack>so you can write hax
03:09:37  <sorensen>crazy game substack
03:11:16  <sorensen>not entirely sure what to do
03:12:25  <sorensen>self.think(function() { self.say('thought') })
03:17:16  <substack>https://gist.github.com/4057296
03:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 18]
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03:58:13  <dominictarr>wow, this is awesome http://of-glob.nko3.jitsu.com/
03:58:27  <isaacs>dominictarr: what's the url to your wizard game?
03:58:34  <isaacs>dominictarr: i'm on another computer, and can't remember it
03:58:44  <dominictarr>wizardz.jit.su
03:58:47  <dominictarr>http://wizardz.jit.su
03:58:58  <isaacs>ahh, much better
03:59:09  <isaacs>i was still trying to remember teh-wizzards-of-str or whatever it was
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04:16:22  <dominictarr>substack, Raynos do we still need to submit the thing?
04:18:46  <isaacs>this of-glob thing, i don't get the appeal
04:18:52  * isaacsis having bad flashbacks
04:19:13  <isaacs>will life be better when Drive C has been defragmented?
04:20:43  <dominictarr>you defrag it when everything goes wrong, in the vane hope that it fixes something.
04:20:56  <isaacs>yes
04:21:29  <Raynos>dominictarr: yes we have to submit it
04:21:34  <Raynos>someone has to write a description for it
04:22:04  <dominictarr>do we have to make a video? I can't my computer sucks too much
04:27:57  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 11]
04:30:29  <substack>so holy fuck
04:30:38  <substack>me and jjjohnnny almost got jumped walking back from bart
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04:30:53  <substack>2 guys followed us and then started running for us
04:31:03  <substack>but we took off running
04:32:02  <dominictarr>substack, Raynos okay I submitted it
04:32:31  <dominictarr>oh shit! you got back okay though?!
04:33:00  <substack>yes
04:33:08  <substack>called it in to the police
04:33:18  <substack>could have gotten my laptop stolen! /!\
04:33:35  <fotoverite>:(
04:33:41  <fotoverite>That's terrifying
04:33:57  <substack>all that monotonous cross country and track running in high school and middle school paying off a little
04:34:34  <dominictarr>you'd have to be like "thats linux, it's no use to you"
04:35:19  <dominictarr>but there is another guy coming, who has a macbook air.
04:35:33  <dominictarr>kinda like the 3 billygoats gruff.
04:36:10  <fotoverite>I rather just have a pipe myself. Don't think you can bluff.
04:36:51  <substack>I do have a large knife I found in the snow in alaska
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04:43:50  <substack>dominictarr: description looks good
04:44:04  <substack>I did `jitsu apps setdrones 1` which charlie recommended
04:44:19  <substack>it could have been some cluster autoscaling thing screwing up the app
04:48:48  <dominictarr>knives raise the stakes too much, I'd leave the knife at home.
04:49:12  <substack>yeah that's my thinking
04:49:22  <substack>running is pretty effective
04:49:29  <substack>especially if you're fast
04:49:38  <dominictarr>yeah, and you are totally built to run
04:50:18  <dominictarr>especially long dist.
04:55:35  <substack>truth
04:55:52  <substack>I mean humans are built for running anyways
04:56:12  <substack>they are built to run after furry animals until they overheat and need to rest
05:00:19  <dominictarr>so, hopefully, you are getting mugged by a gazelle.
05:09:40  <substack>haha
05:27:56  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [developer: 49, free: 489]
05:27:57  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 12]
06:02:34  <substack>not being playable, restarting
06:04:07  <substack>there we go
06:16:24  <fotoverite>linky?
06:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 26]
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06:42:55  <owen1>"Persistence hunting"
06:50:48  <substack>fotoverite: http://wizardz.jit.su/
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07:01:08  <owen1>i just killed someone - "dead": false (:
07:01:18  <owen1>turned him to true..
07:04:25  <substack>is the game playable right now? http://wizardz.jit.su/
07:04:30  <substack>it's really slow in my browser
07:04:36  <substack>wondering if it's just me
07:06:35  <owen1>mine crashed
07:06:42  <substack>ok restarting
07:06:51  <substack>oh wait!
07:06:54  <substack>it's fast for me again
07:07:05  <substack>aha looks like it restarted itself
07:07:29  <owen1>yeah
07:07:35  <owen1>had to close the tab
07:08:10  <substack>check out my tree net
07:09:15  <substack>repeater trees
07:09:28  <owen1>stuck again
07:09:41  <owen1>using chrome canary, btw
07:09:55  <substack>yep same
07:10:00  <substack>https://gist.github.com/4057895
07:12:12  <owen1>after i past it, i need to hit 'cast'?
07:12:17  <owen1>paste
07:13:29  <owen1>cool. i can see the code that other people are using
07:13:57  <owen1>booming voice! wtf
07:16:47  <substack>linked list of trees
07:16:54  <substack>all listening to a specific other tree
07:17:01  <substack>and one of the trees listens to me
07:18:01  <owen1>what's the difference between codex and tome?
07:18:06  <owen1>i am a bit confused
07:18:31  <substack>source and json
07:26:24  <owen1>i saw maximum call stack size exceeded
07:26:32  <fotoverite>And I just killed the server by cursing myself
07:26:54  <fotoverite>Owen1: are you owen barnes?
07:27:17  <owen1>fotoverite: no
07:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 30]
07:28:30  <fotoverite>I don't get casting yet. So you redo the codex to make new functions right?
07:31:50  <substack>I have a sweet tree loudspeaker
07:32:06  <substack>fotoverite: your code gets run once
07:32:24  <substack>to have it run continuously you put code in self.hear() xor self.think()
07:33:17  <fotoverite>but what does the codex do. Does it not contain spells and functions you create to cast via the main bar
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07:34:32  <substack>no
07:34:40  <substack>the codex is just the code that runs on the objects
07:34:55  <substack>click an object
07:40:25  <owen1>i clicked on one of the wizards, hit 'cast', and it execute whatever in the codex?
07:41:07  <substack>click anything
07:41:12  <substack>it will run for that object
07:42:38  <owen1>so as soon as i click on anything, it will run whatever in it's codex?
07:42:47  <owen1>and i can modify anyone's codex?
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07:44:04  <substack>yes
07:44:09  <substack>anything's codex
07:44:14  <substack>everything has a codex
07:44:20  <substack>rocks, trees, monsters, wizards
07:45:51  * anoemijoined
07:55:18  <substack>made a crappy movie
07:55:43  <substack>I'll try again on localhost
07:56:00  <substack>as soon as take1 finishes encoding
08:03:12  <substack>ok this take was better on localhost
08:05:05  <substack>encoding...
08:05:13  <substack>then I'll splice it up to cut out some of the pauses
08:05:17  <owen1>is there a link to the other projects during the competition? who won?
08:05:26  <substack>voting is ongoing
08:06:05  * anoemiquit (Quit: anoemi)
08:07:20  <substack>http://nodeknockout.com/
08:27:57  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 23]
08:29:40  <substack>doing another take
08:29:54  * anoemijoined
08:30:30  <substack>oh shit I know why!
08:30:37  <substack>it's using the build-in mic not my external
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08:49:29  <substack>ok had a good take this time
08:56:01  <substack>84%
08:56:16  <substack>88%
08:57:28  <substack>100%
09:00:57  <substack>watched, seems good
09:00:58  <substack>uploading
09:01:28  <substack>go go gadget youtube upload
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09:07:23  <substack>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5COW63KXEcU
09:08:18  <substack>profile updated
09:11:05  <substack>dominictarr, Raynos ^^^
09:16:40  <substack>also http://foojs.nko3.jitsu.com/
09:17:55  <substack>crdt/scuttlebutt but with stronger consistency
09:18:03  <substack>he's also writing a zookeeper with it
09:18:13  <substack>will be interesting to see how that compares to seaport with crdt
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09:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 47]
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12:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 23]
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14:18:26  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
14:18:26  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
14:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 44]
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16:58:44  <dominictarr>substack, Raynos wizardz is broken
16:59:02  <dominictarr>An error has occurred: {"bytesParsed":0,"code":"HPE_INVALID_CONSTANT"}
16:59:13  <dominictarr>can we put an old version up?
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17:40:07  <substack>dominictarr: fixing
17:40:31  <substack>jitsu restart fixes it
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17:40:34  <substack>you can just run that
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17:41:00  <dominictarr>was just thinking... we (i.e. planet earth) need some sort of programming env for smart phones
17:41:13  <dominictarr>like a new "basic"
17:41:47  <dominictarr>something fun, rather than something useful.
17:42:07  <substack>problem: typing input on smartphones is really difficult
17:42:36  <substack>perhaps something where you read more code than you wrote
17:43:15  <dominictarr>yes, but the thing is smartphones are really cheap ($100 bottom end) and have everything, screen, networking, and good battery life
17:43:58  <dominictarr>maybe just need an IDE?
17:47:36  <dominictarr>also... hard typing a great incentive for code reuse!
17:47:42  <substack>truth
17:49:48  <dominictarr>is a promise a monad?
17:52:12  <substack>why should it matter?
17:53:53  <dominictarr>I'm trying to figure out what a monad is
17:54:01  <substack>" A pithy description, referring to the syntax for statements in several languages, is that monads are a "programmable semicolon"—that is, a monad specifies what a statement is."
17:54:09  <substack>best description
17:54:29  <substack>fancy ivory tower word for semicolon
17:54:37  <substack>(>>) in haskell is basically just a semicolon
17:54:47  <dominictarr>so... a monads are just nonsense?
17:54:51  * juliangruber_quit (Quit: juliangruber_)
17:55:10  <substack>they are something that academics get all excited about that aren't important
17:55:19  <substack>we just call them "statements" everywhere else
17:55:38  <dominictarr>right, but I still want to know what they are, so than I can be sure whether I am using them or not.
17:55:41  <substack>it has some largely unimportant underpinnings to category theory
17:55:56  <substack>so if you are a category theorist they might be useful in your proofs
17:56:27  <substack>monads in haskell let you have different categories of procedural statements
17:56:37  <dominictarr>right, people always say "category theory" when they talk about monads
17:56:46  <dominictarr>but no one can explain that either
17:56:54  <substack>so in the IO monad you can do IO
17:57:21  <substack>which means that functions that `-> IO (...)` will work in an IO monad
17:57:25  <dominictarr>so far, monads seems like a kind of mysticism.
17:58:17  <chrisdickinson>i think a programming environment suited to touch would do wonders for development on smartphones / "consumption-only" devices
17:58:27  <substack>but there are other monads like the STM monad that let you build up steps in a shared memory transaction, operating only on shared memory
17:58:31  <chrisdickinson>possibly something based on manipulating ASTs directly
17:58:34  <chrisdickinson>(belatedly.)
17:58:48  <dominictarr>chadskidmore, VisualLisp
17:58:58  <dominictarr>sorry chrisdickinson VisualLisp
17:59:29  * chrisdickinsonchecks it out
17:59:32  <substack>you could just make it easy to write javascript without much typing and a lot of fingery touch events
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17:59:57  <dominictarr>chrisdickinson, I don't think it's real, I just made that up then.
18:00:04  <chrisdickinson>ah, haha
18:00:54  <dominictarr>Turns Out, visual lisp is part of auto desk
18:00:58  <chrisdickinson>substack: i was sort of thinking along those lines: being able to open a JS file in this IDE and manipulate it -- for instance, dragging two fingers down from an expression to turn it into a binary expression (with the original expression on the left/right hand side)
18:01:08  <dominictarr>hahaha http://www.afralisp.net/visual-lisp/images/ribbon.png
18:01:20  <chrisdickinson>or pulling a blank statement and doing a quick clockwise motion to turn the empty statement into a for loop
18:02:04  <dominictarr>like touch sign language.
18:02:32  <dominictarr>maybe make a touch charades app?
18:02:40  <dominictarr>like draw-something but realtime
18:03:06  <dominictarr>(remember - you are also building a really great training set for ML)
18:03:16  <chrisdickinson>hmm
18:04:34  * wiwilliajoined
18:05:22  <chrisdickinson>the part i got sort of stuck on (which was sort of tangential to the main idea) is writing that "undecidable" module that would take a function and inputs and return either the result or another function if it got to a point in execution that was undecidable based on the given params.
18:05:58  <chrisdickinson>so that if a user provided example data, it could potentially show that data as it flows through the AST (including where it needs to prompt the user for another value to complete execution)
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18:20:43  <substack>check out this spell https://gist.github.com/4060961
18:20:44  <substack>orbit
18:23:32  <dominictarr>nice
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18:26:38  <substack>running it on wizards.jit.su right now
18:26:49  <substack>at (235,20)
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18:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 20]
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18:38:15  <substack>ok so
18:38:24  <substack>the SECRETPORT thing is breaking deploys on nodejitsu
18:39:40  <substack>dominictarr: deploys break because the magic listener looks at your SECRETPORT thing
18:39:54  <substack>there's a race condition where it hits net or http
18:40:14  <dominictarr>yeah, maybe we should use a unix socket for that?
18:40:39  <substack>it should have just been a route over http
18:40:49  <substack>but we can't fix it fuck
18:40:53  <substack>the app will just stay broken
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18:41:14  <dominictarr>well, we could, we'd just forfit the compettiton
18:41:43  <dominictarr>or, we can rollback to an old version...
18:41:55  <dominictarr>agree route over http is best.
18:42:01  <substack>it's a nodejitsu issue I say
18:42:03  <substack>magic is bad
18:43:31  <dominictarr>agree.
18:44:05  <dominictarr>like they should just set a PORT env and that is the port the app must listen on
18:44:09  <substack>yes
18:44:11  <dominictarr>how hard is that?
18:44:13  <substack>like every other hosting provider
18:44:20  <substack>they could even make it "easy"
18:44:47  <substack>by warning you if you don't refer to process.env.PORT in your app
18:44:49  <dominictarr>they could have a regexp to check that you have it, too.
18:44:54  <substack>yes
18:44:54  <dominictarr>exactly.
18:45:14  <substack>or jitsu app configure port NNNN
18:46:09  <dominictarr>I suggested this all a year ago, but so much effort had been put into the elaborate monkey patch that they didn't want to back out
18:46:47  <dominictarr>I should have remembered this when I was writing the spell process
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18:52:24  <substack>dominictarr: got the go-ahead from visnu to disable the other listener in a deploy
18:52:50  <dominictarr>okay cool! so we get to fix it?
18:52:55  <substack>2-byte change to fix it
18:53:04  <substack>yes already deployed
18:53:33  <dominictarr>what was the "other listener"?
18:53:54  <substack>you wrote it
18:54:01  <substack>git blame says
18:54:08  <substack>.listen(SECRETPORT, start)
18:54:28  <substack>oh wait fuck
18:54:40  <substack>start()?
18:54:54  <owen1>404
18:55:01  <owen1>is the game up?
18:55:17  <substack>no
18:55:25  <substack>the old version I checked out had the old subdomain
18:55:39  <substack>fuck all this should be in jitsu conf not package.json
18:56:06  <dominictarr>start() starts the spells process
18:57:15  <substack>ok it's up http://wizardz.jit.su/
18:57:28  <dominictarr>substack, it opens the server, and then starts the child process.
18:57:38  <substack>yes
18:57:49  <dominictarr>yup thats working
18:58:10  <dominictarr>oh, monsters are dead
18:58:21  <substack>>_<
18:58:32  <dominictarr>can't cast spells if the spell process isn't running
18:58:50  <substack>I changed it to just call start()
18:59:13  <substack>oh fuck
18:59:17  <dominictarr>that won't work, because it's not communicating with main server
18:59:18  <substack>init.js needs the port to work
18:59:21  <substack>fuck
18:59:32  <substack>ok doing this
18:59:38  <substack>setTimeout(...)
18:59:41  <dominictarr>comment out the connection, and just start init.js
18:59:43  <dominictarr>that will work
18:59:55  <substack>didn't work because init.js connects to it
19:00:06  <dominictarr>hey!
19:00:09  <dominictarr>idea!
19:00:16  <owen1>i am writing a blog post about your game on our engineering website - can i get a nice 10,000 overview of the tech u use. i saw the package.json but i am not familiar with most of the packages.
19:00:33  <substack>dominictarr: I just put it in a setTimeout
19:00:45  <owen1>i saw shoe. doest it mean it's web sockets?
19:00:45  <substack>so that nodejitsu's magic port sniffer will pick the http server
19:00:45  <dominictarr>disable the init
19:01:31  <dominictarr>and we'll run it in another service and connect via the mux-demux over shoe.
19:01:33  <substack>shit doesn't even work http://wizardz.jit.su/
19:02:39  <dominictarr>that is weird
19:03:02  <dominictarr>is that without the spells process?
19:03:19  <substack>no with
19:03:21  <substack>in a setTimeout
19:03:26  <substack>to trick nodejitsu's magic
19:03:36  <dominictarr>oh, right.
19:03:50  <dominictarr>hmm, what about a unix port?
19:03:58  <substack>I see, trying
19:04:16  <dominictarr>or, just make it use shoe & mux-demux
19:04:23  <dominictarr>like the clients.
19:04:29  <substack>impossibly hard
19:05:29  <dominictarr>owen1, mainly, we use a streaming data replication module, crdt, and then connect it up over mux-demux (stream multiplexer) and shoe.
19:05:39  <dominictarr>shoe provides a stream api over websockets
19:05:53  <dominictarr>mux-demux provides multiple streams over a single stream
19:06:11  <substack>ok the unix socket worked
19:06:24  <dominictarr>and crdt provides a data model that can be updated from either end, and is eventually consistent.
19:06:33  <dominictarr>substack, sweet!
19:07:01  <substack>oh wait I think the monsters are dead because they don't have any source
19:07:31  <substack>nope it's just down
19:09:48  <substack>fuck now it's doing the same thing
19:10:06  <substack>bah I'll just revert to the somewhat working old version
19:10:13  <dominictarr>yeah
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19:14:45  <juliangruber>it's soo down :(
19:15:52  <juliangruber>HPE_INVALID_CONSTANT
19:15:57  <substack>ok I see now, the net.connect() was also unnecessary
19:16:09  <substack>the whole net secretport thing just spanned multiple files
19:16:18  <substack>I thought it was necessary to make the game work
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19:17:25  <substack>dominictarr: so it works now but all the items have empty state
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19:17:48  <dominictarr>stop calling them items, they are creatures.
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19:21:59  <substack>bah I killed all the creatures it seems
19:24:37  <substack>so I guess that part was actually necessary to sync the model state across init and server
19:24:45  <substack>can't just disable it
19:25:27  <substack>so even when the net server is in a timeout it still fucks up
19:25:51  <substack>I'll put it in a 10 second timeout
19:26:04  <substack>maybe the port punching magic is async
19:26:57  <substack>it works!
19:27:03  <substack>ok a 10 second timeout fixed it finally
19:27:43  <st_luke>magic magic magic magic magic
19:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 8, free: 60]
19:28:13  <substack>a wizard game buckles under too much magic
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19:32:12  <pkrumins>wrote a short article http://www.catonmat.net/blog/my-favorite-regex/
19:33:25  <substack>running again http://wizardz.jit.su/
19:35:01  <substack>juliangruber: it's back
19:35:29  <substack>issues with nodejitsu port ordering and ports getting stored in the db
19:36:04  <CoverSlide|TPFR>because who cares about non-latin characters
19:37:24  <pkrumins>yeah
19:47:50  <dominictarr>pkrumins, nice!
19:48:01  <pkrumins>thanks!
19:48:33  <st_luke>kind of want to just make my resume in markdown and print it on a printer from 20 years ago
19:48:45  <st_luke>and anyone that appreciates that type of thing is someone I can probably get along with in a professional environment
19:49:07  <dominictarr>and make the email attachment .txt
19:49:30  <pkrumins>hehe
19:50:23  <dominictarr>st_luke, make it a dot matrix printer with preferated edges,
19:50:32  <st_luke>dominictarr: exactly what I'm thinking
19:50:56  <owen1>other than dominic and substack, who else worked on this?
19:50:58  <st_luke>let me ask my current coworkers if anyone has a dot matrix printer
19:51:15  <dominictarr>and for total max retro points, that paper with the alternating brown lines
19:51:18  <substack>owen1: Raynos
19:51:25  <owen1>substack: thanks
19:51:26  <substack>dominictarr: line-feed?
19:52:01  <dominictarr>st_luke, I think only government departments have printers like that.
19:52:06  <substack>http://www.trs-80.com/images/hw-printer-dmp200x400.jpg
19:52:54  <dominictarr>oh yeah, that is what I'm talking about
19:52:59  <dominictarr>there is still people who collect retro computers, one of them probably has a printer
19:52:59  <substack>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2087/2379281153_9cac2d2633.jpg
19:53:31  <dominictarr>or maybe you can just print a dot matrix font with inkjet.
19:54:18  <juliangruber>substack: awzom
19:54:28  <substack>I remember using an old apple line feed printer in elementary school in 1993
19:54:38  <substack>the school computer lab had apple iis and iiis
19:55:13  <substack>juliangruber: try this spell https://gist.github.com/4060961
19:55:29  <substack>with your own id instead of wizard:f91e
19:55:35  <dominictarr>st_luke, that or build your own dot matrix printer with arduino and solenoids.
19:55:56  <juliangruber>substack I guess wizard:f91e is you
19:56:01  <substack>yes
19:57:09  <substack>hahaha
19:57:12  <substack>you put a wizard in orbit
19:57:45  <juliangruber>but i don't see you
19:57:58  <juliangruber>dammit
19:58:04  <substack>I'm at (540,130)
19:58:07  <juliangruber>i didn't change the id
19:58:36  <substack>you can teleport by clicking your wizard and then adjusting your json in the "tome" tab
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20:00:45  <juliangruber>arrived
20:00:46  <juliangruber>nice
20:00:59  <juliangruber>I soo enjoy the big eyes
20:06:38  <juliangruber>dominictarr: any plans on making scuttlebutt work with async methods in .applyUpdates and .history?
20:06:47  <juliangruber>need that because I can't store all in memory
20:07:18  <juliangruber>and started implementing...but you have to compensate for async lag in timestamps and stuff gets complicated
20:07:44  <dominictarr>juliangruber, the better approach is to syncronize the clocks.
20:07:53  <dominictarr>this is on my todo list
20:08:02  <juliangruber>I get situations where updates happen not in order, like, 1,2,4,3 and 3 gets deleted
20:08:28  <dominictarr>if 4 updates the same key as 3 then that is correct.
20:08:45  <dominictarr>updates from a single node will always be in order.
20:09:42  <dominictarr>I don't really want to make applyUpdates and history async (although, if you can make a convincing case...) can you split your thing into multiple documents instead?
20:10:02  <juliangruber>4 updates key 4, 3 key 3
20:10:50  <juliangruber>i want to do replication between timeseries databases, so I have many many keys, get like 120000 writes per seconds
20:11:50  <juliangruber>i guess scuttlebutt isn't right for that as there are no conflicts...
20:15:16  <dominictarr>substack, okay, that is deffinately wrong.
20:15:45  <dominictarr>juliangruber, yeah, that is more like a stream
20:16:08  <dominictarr>I've been thinking about building that too, but I don't think I'd use scuttlebutt directly
20:16:22  <dominictarr>it's quite different to scuttlebutt
20:16:45  <dominictarr>maybe it would turn out the same, or turn out as a better base class
20:17:33  <dominictarr>juliangruber, would the strict order matter - would you go back and insert another more recent key into it's place?
20:22:28  <juliangruber>dominictar, no, inserts always happen with the current timestamp, no updates
20:23:07  <juliangruber>dominictarr, no, with updates, for aggregation and min/max etc.
20:23:51  <dominictarr>will more than one node be writing to the stream? or are there many readers and one writer?
20:24:08  <juliangruber>one writer and x readers
20:24:14  <dominictarr>cool, that is easier
20:24:16  * ITproquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
20:24:32  <juliangruber>not sure yet how many nodes should receive writes
20:25:09  <juliangruber>or just all, then there is only need for transmission of initial state, if a node joins
20:25:31  <dominictarr>yes, and to replay stuff that it might have missed.
20:25:47  <juliangruber>and I use my leveldb binding for fs stuff, that can handle > 120000 writes per second
20:26:12  <dominictarr>cool, also I have a thing for reading an fs stream backwards
20:26:16  <dominictarr>fs-reverse
20:26:23  <juliangruber>but perhaps automatic sharding with guaranteed redundancy would prove well also
20:26:24  * zz_shykeschanged nick to shykes
20:26:48  <dominictarr>juliangruber, okay, if we can build this, I think we could refactor scuttlebutt to use it.
20:27:13  <juliangruber>cool
20:27:38  <juliangruber>so i can kill my almost working scuttlebutt async branch :D
20:27:57  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 4, free: 47]
20:28:46  <juliangruber>fs-reverse would be cool for transmission of initial state because newer entries are queried more frequently
20:29:06  <juliangruber>no, it's already in leveldb...
20:30:56  * shykeschanged nick to zz_shykes
20:30:58  <juliangruber>dominictarr: I had a look at kv and your other projects but always run into emfile / performance issues, leveldb was the first to do the job
20:31:09  <dominictarr>emfile?
20:31:13  <dominictarr>too many files?
20:31:18  <juliangruber>yep
20:31:26  <dominictarr>leveldb could handle a stream abstraction
20:31:41  <dominictarr>maybe make a level db back end for kv
20:31:56  <juliangruber>yeah, a kv-compliant wrapper is on my todo list
20:32:12  <dominictarr>someone made a redis one during nko
20:32:16  <dominictarr>cool!
20:32:23  <dominictarr>oh, what are you using this for?
20:32:46  <juliangruber>replacing the mysql cluster at my job
20:32:47  <dominictarr>it's always nice to know the concrete applications
20:33:05  <dominictarr>but what sort of data is it holding?
20:33:14  <juliangruber>we have like 12 nodes and it's mostly suffering from the timeseries stuff
20:33:33  <dominictarr>oh, timeseries... so like user-logs?
20:33:35  <juliangruber>many many time series and some borign profile / blog / data
20:33:40  <juliangruber>for financial data
20:33:43  <dominictarr>got it, cool.
20:34:00  <juliangruber>and I want to just solve the timeseries problem
20:34:40  <dominictarr>12 recording nodes? but a single source?
20:34:53  <juliangruber>and it needs to be very fast, there are queries that need 25,000 rows at once
20:35:11  <juliangruber>one master and the rest slaves
20:35:17  <dominictarr>right, leveldb can do that though, I understand
20:35:24  <dominictarr>it's just the very heart of a database
20:35:49  <dominictarr>mysql is the same stuff... but with queries and shit on top
20:36:00  <juliangruber>since it's only inserts and range queries the architecture can be very simple
20:37:16  <dominictarr>right
20:37:20  <juliangruber>the basic implementation fits on 1 page of code, without replication
20:37:24  <dominictarr>and it's only appends
20:37:31  <juliangruber>mhm
20:37:57  <dominictarr>because each insert is always after what was before
20:38:48  <juliangruber>I initially tried one append-only file per instrument and use seek with fs.create{Read,Write}Stream but then wrote to too many files at once
20:38:49  <dominictarr>so, each node just needs to remember when it last got something, and then to replicate, tell the new one "give me everything since T"
20:39:24  <dominictarr>juliangruber, you can reconfigure to allow more open files.
20:39:33  <juliangruber>that's not the problem
20:39:40  <juliangruber>the performances degraded too much
20:39:47  <dominictarr>right.
20:40:05  <dominictarr>so, if the fs isn't good at that, the solution is probably level-db
20:40:20  <juliangruber>would you write to one, some or all nodes at the same time?
20:40:45  <dominictarr>either of those options are okay.
20:40:46  <juliangruber>a in-mem approach obviously doesn't work either
20:41:00  <juliangruber>ok
20:41:01  <dominictarr>no, not at this scale.
20:41:30  <juliangruber>my initial implementation is faster then redis with a factor of 6
20:41:57  <juliangruber>query 25000 rows: redis 300ms leveldb 50ms
20:42:20  <juliangruber>using sorted sets in redis, which basically is the same as leveldb
20:42:28  <substack>sweet
20:43:21  <dominictarr>sweet!
20:43:55  <juliangruber>leveldb is such a powerhouse
20:43:58  <dominictarr>juliangruber, what does your api look like? I'm about to build something like an observer-stream
20:44:10  <dominictarr>I want to go observe(set)
20:44:20  <juliangruber>https://github.com/juliangruber/node-leveled
20:44:31  <dominictarr>and it returns a stream that emits the objects in a stream, and then streams the changes.
20:44:40  <dominictarr>[click]
20:45:45  <dominictarr>juliangruber, I meant for the timeseries thing
20:45:49  <juliangruber>ah
20:46:11  <juliangruber>what to you mean exactly with api?
20:46:30  <dominictarr>user interface
20:46:38  <dominictarr>programmer interface
20:47:17  * tilgoviquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:48:33  <juliangruber>you mean how to query and insert? or how the db implementation looks like?
20:50:15  <juliangruber>there is no need for a abstraction for timeseries, instead of ts.set(k,v) or ts.get(k) or ts.range(from,to) it is just db.*
20:50:22  <juliangruber>https://gist.github.com/8728c398418b73fa5ec9
20:52:57  <dominictarr>I thought you where talking about a module for replicated timeseries
20:53:18  <dominictarr>you'd want that for the replication part
20:53:27  <juliangruber>ah
20:53:33  <juliangruber>sec
20:54:02  <dominictarr>juliangruber, is leveldb sorted my the keys?
20:54:11  <juliangruber>yup
20:54:24  <juliangruber>you can pass custom comparator functions
20:54:51  <dominictarr>and does that sort from the value?
20:54:56  <juliangruber>key only
20:55:02  <dominictarr>right
20:55:48  <dominictarr>can you change the sort at query time? or do you have to set it before you start saving data?
20:56:01  <juliangruber>that is an initial configuration
20:56:40  <dominictarr>okay, cool.
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21:01:59  <juliangruber>dominictarr: like https://gist.github.com/4061867 ? would that work?
21:02:42  <juliangruber>no, doesn't handle the case where the db already has data
21:02:49  <pkrumins>ascii tees! http://teespring.com/ascii
21:03:31  <juliangruber>dominictarr: updated
21:03:57  <juliangruber>pkrumins: xD
21:04:21  <pkrumins>:)
21:05:08  <dominictarr>juliangruber, does isAt(ts) start start emitting 'update' events?
21:05:18  <dominictarr>juliangruber, does isAt(ts) start state emitting 'update' events?
21:05:52  <juliangruber>dominictarr: no, that is the T you mentioned earlier
21:06:22  <juliangruber>thats easier than iterating over all keys like you do with scuttlebutt
21:06:46  <juliangruber>if i got you right
21:06:47  <dominictarr>right, so doing that should tell state to give you everything since that time.
21:07:05  <pkrumins>substack: ping
21:07:06  <dominictarr>yeah, this is kinda like a scuttlebutt but with only one key
21:10:00  <juliangruber>dominictarr: hm...changes need to be replicated before they are saved to disk, in order to avoid the problems i had with scuttlebutt
21:10:04  <pkrumins>ping ping ping
21:10:40  <dominictarr>juliangruber, if they are connected, then replicate live, if disconnected, then replicate when they connect.
21:13:04  <juliangruber>dominictarr: gist update
21:16:47  <juliangruber>dominictarr: i feel that a single timestamp per node won't work
21:17:16  <dominictarr>well, you need a timestamp per writer
21:17:28  <dominictarr>if there is only one writer, then one timestamp is okay
21:18:02  <pkrumins>Altreus: i know you'll like this http://teespring.com/ascii
21:19:35  <juliangruber>dominictarr: true!
21:20:28  <juliangruber>dominictarr: nodes will have to know whether a node receives writes directly or needs data to be replicated to
21:21:12  <dominictarr>alternatively, you could give each writer it's own series, and merge them when you read the timeseries.
21:21:34  <dominictarr>that will commute, you just do N queries, and merge them in node.
21:21:38  <dominictarr>or, client side
21:21:50  <dominictarr>hmm, node would be better.
21:26:08  <juliangruber>gist update
21:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 66]
21:28:46  <dominictarr>juliangruber, I just want to see what the external api would look like, not the implementation, like the example you would put in the readme.
21:31:45  <juliangruber>dominictarr https://gist.github.com/4062042 ?
21:32:12  <juliangruber>or ts.createStream().pipe ...
21:32:41  <dominictarr>createStream !
21:33:29  <juliangruber>fixed
21:33:29  <dominictarr>there could be things that want the same api, and to hook into the replication stream
21:33:56  <dominictarr>like a map-reduce server
21:34:46  <dominictarr>right, so set should probably not take a key, because the key is the timestamp, right?
21:35:21  <juliangruber>ticks need to be exact, if apple pushes a quote at ts1, it should be in the db with ts1
21:36:11  <juliangruber>that makes it unnicer
21:36:18  <juliangruber>the ts could be optional
21:36:19  <dominictarr>right, so the source determins the timestamp
21:36:46  <dominictarr>do they quotes come in with timestamps on them?
21:37:29  <juliangruber>jap
21:38:07  <juliangruber>there are several values per ts, max. 6, which just can be serialized together
21:38:30  <juliangruber>you might want to store custom values to, like min/max per instrument
21:38:42  <juliangruber>fuck, forgot that we have several instruments
21:39:21  <juliangruber>dominictarr updated
21:42:55  <dominictarr>right, that looks good.
21:43:48  <dominictarr>you could make this a stream createSeries(ID).write(data)
21:44:25  <juliangruber>?
21:44:25  <dominictarr>and then do range queries like series.createRangeStream(start, end).pipe(...)
21:46:34  <dominictarr>because a timeseries is basically the same shape as a stream.
21:47:06  <juliangruber>added an example for feeding data into a realtime chart
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21:55:13  <substack>restarting the game
21:55:22  <substack>there we go all better
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22:16:49  <dominictarr>juliangruber, sweet, this will fit with other stuff I am building. actually, this might be useful for something I am working on
22:17:21  <dominictarr>it's extra cool, because, since you are using leveldb, and that is just basically indexdb,
22:17:35  <dominictarr>then stuff built with this will work in the browser
22:18:03  <juliangruber>did you know that chrome uses leveldb for localStorage?
22:25:57  <chrisdickinson>sooo. thinking of writing up a little library to expose https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Server-sent_events/Using_server-sent_events as a writable stream from node.
22:26:25  <chrisdickinson>(in the hopes of adding another module on top that exposes an xhr / sse pair as a duplex stream.)
22:26:39  <chrisdickinson>(since my experience with websockets has been… less than sterling.)
22:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 40]
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22:52:20  <Raynos>oh hi
22:52:53  <Raynos>isaacs: https://github.com/isaacs/redsess/pull/5#issuecomment-10307954
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23:12:26  <Raynos>dominictarr, substack: we can use the wizard game to teach people programming
23:12:42  <Raynos>like https://gist.github.com/4060961
23:12:46  <Raynos>explains the idea of an orbit
23:12:49  <Raynos>and shows you how to do
23:12:55  <Raynos>and its fun because you make your friends orbit around you
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23:15:28  <pkrumins>make a special character can draw traces
23:15:44  <pkrumins>make a special character [that] can draw traces
23:15:59  * thatguydanjoined
23:16:01  <pkrumins>then you can do drawings
23:17:12  <pkrumins>but only in a special drawing region
23:17:47  <pkrumins>so that the map doesnt get filled with random crap
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23:27:56  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 38]
23:28:52  <dominictarr>pkrumins, nah! fill the map with random crap!
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23:29:18  <pkrumins>i will write hilbert curve then
23:29:23  <dominictarr>make it so you can lay a trail, and then you can make other things that follow the trail
23:29:54  <dominictarr>basically, make massively multiplayer logo.
23:30:23  <dominictarr>man, we should have just done that....
23:30:30  <dominictarr>way simpler
23:35:23  <substack>people are having a lot of fun with the game we built still
23:41:17  <dominictarr>how many people? we should have added some logging...
23:46:23  <dominictarr>we could deff do massive logo...
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23:57:55  <Raynos>At some point I stopped reading docs
23:58:09  <Raynos>And started diving into index.js or /lib/bullshit.js
23:58:21  <Raynos>Node community why you suck @ docs