00:07:03  <jjjjohnnny>Raynos: OH
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00:16:12  <Raynos>http://www.meetup.com/East-Bay-HTML5/events/91451482/
00:16:18  <Raynos>Ill be talking at east bay html5
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00:16:24  <substack>\o/
00:16:30  <Raynos>all the east bay homies should go down there
00:16:34  <Raynos>i cant decide what I should talk about
00:17:35  <Raynos>reactive UI, browser dbs or peer to peer
00:17:40  <Raynos>probably wrong crowd for peer to peer
00:18:10  <Raynos>browser dbs sounds fun
00:23:13  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 27]
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00:25:29  <Raynos>wait I forgot
00:25:33  <Raynos>I can talk about all three in one.
00:28:22  <substack>https://github.com/meteor/meteor/issues/10#issuecomment-10873209
00:29:36  <Raynos>substack: troll meteor more :D
00:29:40  <Raynos>it is very easy to troll
00:30:09  <substack>genuine troll
00:31:14  <Raynos>its genuine advice
00:31:20  <Raynos>instead of "lol you dont use npm. noobs"
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00:42:00  <jez0990>Raynos: hey, are you referring to anything specific by "reactive UI"? anything i can read about? :)
00:42:13  <Raynos>jez0990: FRP, github.com/gozala/reflex
00:42:31  <Raynos>i really should aggregate what reactive UI means
00:42:34  <Raynos>into a slide show
00:42:44  <mbalho>sounds like DHTML
00:43:41  <Raynos>mbalho: its about continious data types (continious as in over time) that are bound to UI
00:44:16  <mbalho>most js frameworks these days call it data binding
00:45:03  <jez0990>awesome, thanks
00:45:18  <jez0990>so.... using something like d3 to build UI's?
00:50:56  <Raynos>not d3
00:50:57  <Raynos>not data binding
00:51:18  <Raynos>mbalho: data binding is binding a mutable object to a UI representation
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00:51:41  <Raynos>reactive is binding a continuous data type to a UI representation
00:52:31  <mbalho>'continuous data type' meaning evented i/o?
00:53:19  <Raynos>some kind of representation of data over time
00:53:28  <Raynos>it means an FRP signal or behaviour
00:53:32  <Raynos>basically a stream
00:53:54  <Raynos>except it has to be composable and first class
00:54:14  <mbalho>doesnt 'data binding' imply data over time? why couple the ui side with the io side
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00:54:41  <dominictarr>UI is a form of OI
00:55:00  <dominictarr>IO
00:55:31  <mbalho>evented io is when we throw some parties on a lunar base near jupiter right
00:58:01  <Raynos>mbalho: I said nothing about io
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00:58:41  <rvagg>evented io is cold
00:58:56  <mbalho>well data has to some from somewhere. im just trying to get to the bottom of your jargon :)
00:59:01  <mbalho>come from*
01:00:56  <Raynos>the bottom of the jargon is that its based on immutablility
01:01:06  <Raynos>and that its not based on .on("update", render)
01:01:07  <substack>mbalho: where is your "deal with it" animated gif I am in need of such imagery
01:01:27  <substack>the dog with sunglasses
01:01:35  <Raynos>its also based on the system being a closed loop of transformations over data from input to output
01:01:57  <Raynos>the biggest change is immutability
01:03:32  <Raynos>no longer is your app based around islands of multiple models
01:08:08  <mbalho>substack: there is this one http://i.imgur.com/J0jnh.gif
01:08:23  <mbalho>substack: and this one http://jsforcats.com/images/dealwithit.gif
01:08:29  <mbalho>substack: those are my favorite variations
01:10:04  <substack>hahaha yes
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01:23:13  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 9]
01:24:53  <isaacs>Raynos: A WINNAR IS YOU! https://npmjs.org/recent-authors
01:25:01  <Raynos>?
01:25:09  <Raynos>A WINNAR IS ME
01:25:09  <LOUDBOT>HURRICANE SANDY? MORE LIKE HURRICANE LAMEDY M I RITE
01:25:23  <isaacs>Raynos: most active in the last 12 weeks
01:25:32  <Raynos>SUBSTACK. MORE LIKE SUBSLACK
01:25:32  <LOUDBOT>DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST YOUR MORTGAGE
01:25:47  <Raynos>thats the last 12 days isnt it?
01:25:57  <isaacs>mbalho: i told aristotle his picture isn't on your websiteyet.
01:26:02  <isaacs>mbalho: he pretended not to care.
01:26:07  <isaacs>mbalho: i think he's crushed.
01:26:35  <isaacs>gotta run
01:26:37  * isaacsaway!
01:26:46  <isaacs>Raynos: it's the last 14 days by default, but you can put a "since" date in the url
01:26:58  <isaacs>Raynos: sorry, 2 weeks, not 12
01:27:04  <isaacs>k, away for realsies
01:33:43  <substack>http://npm.im/meteor
01:33:59  <substack>MIT LICENSE what now
01:34:04  <substack>anarchy in the data center
01:35:54  <mbalho>lol!
01:37:42  <substack>https://github.com/meteor/meteor/pull/516https://github.com/meteor/meteor/pull/516
01:37:45  <substack>wups
01:37:48  <substack>https://github.com/meteor/meteor/pull/516
01:38:05  <substack>mbalho: and I will throw down the gifs later if necessary depending on their response
01:39:36  <mbalho>lol
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01:59:21  <Raynos>substack: your not hanging with the meteor palls?
02:02:34  <substack>it's actually after webrtc, not before
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02:10:24  <guybrush>lol substack is meteor-maintainer now?
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04:56:11  <Raynos>oh hi
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05:36:27  <jjjjohnnny>poll: should this nice JSON editor im building show leaf nodes on click, on hover, or onomatic?
05:41:42  <rvagg>click
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05:44:38  <jjjjohnnny>rvagg: im with you on that
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05:56:59  <jjjjohnnny>BINARY IS UNFASHIONABLE. USE ZERONE.
05:56:59  <LOUDBOT>OMG CARZ DRIVING IN CIRCLEZ I BETTER HIT THE GAS AND CUT THEM OFF SO I DON'T GET IN A ASSIDENT
05:57:01  <jjjjohnnny> IT RHYMES WITH MALONEY.
05:57:01  <LOUDBOT>TURN THE OTHERS INTO... TRASHCANS. SEE YOU LATER, TRASHCANS!
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06:23:13  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 37]
06:24:52  <jjjjohnnny>AN ARRAY OF ARRAYS JUST CALL EM RAY-RAY
06:24:52  <LOUDBOT>THE FUCK THERE HASN'T... SHUT YOUR EGRESS INTERFACE
06:30:21  <Raynos>there needs to be oaklandjs
06:30:25  <Raynos>A compile to js language
06:30:28  <Raynos>with oakland jokes
06:30:29  <Raynos>as syntax
06:40:10  <mbalho>undefined would be 'woowoo'
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06:51:33  <jjjjohnnny>hows that webRTC data coming along?
06:53:44  <jjjjohnnny>nybody with a trp report?
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08:07:55  <jjjjohnnny>https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/11/tutorial-how-create-anonymous-email-accounts
08:08:39  <jjjjohnnny>A: use Tor >8[
08:09:19  <jjjjohnnny>anonymous email product anyone?
08:11:55  <jjjjohnnny>nice https://www.eff.org/pages/tor-and-https
08:15:07  <jjjjohnnny>tor nodes could be the seeds of the next level of p2p
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09:21:38  <substack>b end
09:21:43  <substack>wups
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09:37:39  <ehd>dominictarr: replying to the discussion on #nodeup:
09:37:59  <ehd> the sharejs maintainer is re-writing the stack into a libot and a sharedb server written in C, and it looks like there's also a new JS client
09:38:24  <dominictarr>wtf is share db?
09:38:36  <ehd>https://github.com/josephg/sharedb
09:39:05  <ehd>just the name for the c port
09:39:09  <ehd>o
09:40:01  <dominictarr>oh man... that will just make the problem harder to fix.
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09:50:59  <ehd>it's that time when you have to do someone else's work with one line of plumbing
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12:22:51  <juliangruber>-names
12:23:13  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 5, free: 56]
12:23:33  <juliangruber>substack pkrumins: how can i check if a page opens without errors using testling?
12:23:50  <juliangruber>i just want to catch things like someone using console.log in ie
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12:30:10  <juliangruber>also, the first example from the docs doesn't finish in ie9
12:32:37  <juliangruber>or in any other browser i tried...createWindow seems to be the problem again
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16:14:11  <defunctzombie>substack: https://github.com/substack/meteor/commit/574ea52beefc19acb7d7a2544efb634e8e247edc you pinned all the dependencies... :D
16:14:18  <defunctzombie>brings a tear to my eye
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19:21:08  <defunctzombie>where is a good place to buy a .io domain?
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20:17:00  <fotoverite>:(
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21:49:20  <st_luke>npm registry just hit 22 GB
21:49:40  <st_luke>18500
21:50:07  <st_luke>http://npm.luke.xxx:5984/_utils/
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21:53:30  <CoverSlide>luke.xxx?
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21:54:09  <substack>so I was talking with the meteor folks last night
21:54:18  <CoverSlide>mhm?
21:54:53  <substack>and one thing they kept saying about npm was that it's hard to find things that work reliably
21:54:58  <substack>to find "the best" modules
21:55:07  <substack>the discoverability problem
21:55:13  <substack>like an xml parser
21:55:27  <CoverSlide>well best is subjective
21:55:52  <substack>yes
21:55:58  <CoverSlide>although usually i go by last updated, and then work my way down
21:56:11  <substack>but some modules are just "finished"
21:56:28  <substack>in fact modules that have sufficiently narrow scope (a positive characteristic) tend to be finished
21:56:43  <CoverSlide>yeah
21:58:32  <CoverSlide>well i agree it is tough, in fact it would be tough for any package manager. i don't know any package manager that really does anything to help with discoverability. gems, cpan, cabal, leiningen, what do they really do to corrent this? i think that comes with the territory. did they have any suggestions?
21:58:42  <CoverSlide>*correct
21:59:37  <CoverSlide>i mean, starring and number of dependants are great metrics that npm gives, I don't know if the other pms do this
22:00:29  <substack>the problem with starring is that you get modules like mocha with a ton of stars that I personally hate
22:00:43  <substack>using your local network of stars and dependencies would be a much better way
22:00:52  <substack>what we need is a social network for npm
22:00:57  <CoverSlide>hmm
22:01:04  <substack>somebody go down to the VCs on sand hill road and pitch this
22:01:24  <CoverSlide>maybe geeklist integration
22:01:32  <CoverSlide>although personally i never use my geeklist
22:02:00  <substack>just build page rank for npm
22:02:11  <substack>using existing dependencies, devDependencies, and stars
22:03:07  <CoverSlide>hmm
22:03:20  <substack>Raynos already has a module to do this with curated lists
22:04:04  <substack>also I think this tool should let you negative star modules
22:04:54  <CoverSlide>not a bad idea
22:05:06  <fotoverite>yes I agree
22:05:22  <fotoverite>dependents are a great one. It also should give downloaded as a metric easier
22:07:31  <substack>downloads are nowhere near as important as network rank
22:07:51  <fotoverite>how does one decide network rank though
22:08:00  <substack>by implementing page rank
22:08:10  <fotoverite>Yes part of which would include download
22:08:22  <CoverSlide>so in-network packages have 100% priority over downloads? not sure if that helps discovery if you're looking at the same packages over and over
22:08:26  <substack>I don't think download is a good metric
22:08:34  <fotoverite>It's one of many metrics
22:08:38  <fotoverite>it's mean it's being used
22:08:48  <CoverSlide>perhaps "recent downloads"
22:08:49  <fotoverite>That's where weight comes in, but it cannot be ignored completely
22:08:58  <substack>CoverSlide: you look at what your "internet friends" are using
22:09:09  <substack>not what everybody is using
22:09:12  <fotoverite>LoL Substack that's a terrible idea
22:09:26  <fotoverite>you want to be exposed to things your friends aren't using else you would just ask them.
22:09:42  <substack>asking your friends is really slow
22:09:50  <st_luke>substack: I agree with you on that
22:09:54  <CoverSlide>so are you suggesting friends? or just base it on deps & author deps?
22:09:56  <st_luke>I look at my friends' repos and see what looks good
22:10:02  <st_luke>try it out and see if I like the module
22:10:04  <fotoverite>Well then make an app, but search shouldn't be crossed with that.
22:10:15  <st_luke>if I do then I use it, if not I might write something myself or find something different
22:10:21  <fotoverite>You're discussing two separate ideas, both of which are good but that shouldn't be linked together
22:10:29  <substack>so you can infer the list of "internet friends" by looking at what dependencies and stars you have
22:10:51  <CoverSlide>ok
22:11:04  <CoverSlide>i think it's worth a try
22:11:08  <fotoverite>What do stars mean?
22:11:19  <substack>npm help star
22:11:22  <CoverSlide>a star is like the "like" button
22:11:30  <fotoverite>Seriously I can't get over stars. It's a terrible metric because nobody really knows what it means
22:11:32  <CoverSlide>you can unstar too
22:11:33  <substack>stars would be like dependencies but worth more
22:11:34  <fotoverite>To you.
22:11:54  <fotoverite>To mean it means I'm interested and want to follow development but maybe for completely different reasons.
22:12:05  <fotoverite>Like I never want to use this npm but the code is so bad I much follow
22:12:09  <fotoverite>must*
22:12:10  <CoverSlide>we'd have to figure out how to score this too
22:12:17  <st_luke>I like how it leaves things open to interpretation
22:12:29  <st_luke>we don't have a set of rules that tell us the reasons we're allowed to start something
22:12:29  <fotoverite>Metrics don't work via interpretation
22:12:49  <fotoverite>When you use it for metrics luke, "Yes yes you do"
22:13:04  <CoverSlide>I also think you should be able to star / unstar on the gui
22:13:17  <CoverSlide>and see metrics in the cli
22:13:17  <fotoverite>else you have no idea what your measuring. Would you you benchmark without understand the speed your testing against?
22:13:25  <fotoverite>I like that idea coverslide
22:15:19  <Raynos>substack: custom lists too!
22:15:40  <CoverSlide>now that's crazy talk
22:15:55  <Raynos>> what we need is a social network for npm STARTUP DISCOVERED
22:16:06  <st_luke>that's the best idea
22:16:06  <CoverSlide>npm starring authors i think would be a good idea though
22:16:18  <st_luke>it would be a great place to talk about node
22:16:27  <st_luke>not just an irc room where people ask for help
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22:16:34  <Raynos>https://github.com/Raynos/node-communities#node-communities
22:16:38  <Raynos>I started this communities idea
22:17:02  <Raynos>which gives you a pluggable way to defined "set of authors I like" then other modules can use it and narrow npm down to your community
22:17:10  <CoverSlide>hmm
22:17:13  <st_luke>Raynos: great idea
22:17:19  <Raynos>I use it in npm-used
22:17:23  <CoverSlide>i don't see that getting into npm
22:17:25  <Raynos>I also wanted to do npm-local-search
22:17:40  <Raynos>which is search but restricted by a community
22:18:42  <Raynos>https://github.com/Raynos/npm-used/blob/master/lib/getPackages.js#L10
22:18:54  <Raynos>getPackages in npm-used gets all packages by a group of authors
22:19:00  <Raynos>so just do an npm search on that subset of npm
22:19:08  <Raynos>that alone is epic searchability++
22:19:16  <Raynos>sometimes I do npm search QUERY substack
22:19:17  <substack>Raynos: just do weighted search
22:19:20  <Raynos>just to reduce noise
22:19:31  <CoverSlide>but how do you determine the weights?
22:19:34  <Raynos>substack: weight works but I really want to only deal with a strict subset of npm
22:20:05  <Raynos>anyway what we need and I was thinking of this
22:20:17  <Raynos>is a community leveldb with npm indexed in crazy ways
22:20:31  <Raynos>basically a replicated leveldb we share and everyone runs crazy map reduces of npms data over it
22:20:51  <Raynos>then everyone can build apps on top of it
22:21:13  * zz_shykeschanged nick to shykes
22:23:07  <Raynos>GITHUB Y U SLOW
22:23:07  <LOUDBOT>SIMCOP2387 WISHES THAT YOU HAVE COME FROM IS A SINGLE WHITE, FEMALE, BBW
22:23:13  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 21]
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23:23:14  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 26]
23:32:40  <mbalho>hey can you guys beta test gather.at web version? click on the 'mobile web' button on the front page to try it
23:34:00  <isaacs>mbalho: yay! aristotle is on jsforcats.com!
23:34:22  <isaacs>mbalho: you'll be sad to learn, though, that he only got about halfway through the tutorial before getting bored and giving up.
23:34:25  <st_luke>mbalho: seems to be working well
23:34:36  <mbalho>isaacs: i put him next to a cat named Louis
23:34:36  <st_luke>looks great
23:34:43  <isaacs>mbalho: i asked him to give some constructive feedback, but he just rolled over and demanded food.
23:34:44  <mbalho>isaacs: i gto this email "I love the jsforcats.com project. My buddy Louis has recently been working with the material & I just wanted to share: http://www.hecanjog.com/louisjs.jpg"
23:34:52  <isaacs>mbalho: yay!
23:35:18  <mbalho>isaacs: that was a signal that he was hungry for more JS
23:35:44  <isaacs>mbalho: i thought so! but then i fed him some js, and he told me to go fuck myself.
23:35:50  <mbalho>haha
23:35:57  <isaacs>mbalho: and made it clear he wanted tuna and dry cat food.
23:36:01  <isaacs>and plastic bags.
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