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00:00:18  <Raynos>Man I used to have this crazy idea, rvagg
00:01:59  <Raynos>I cant find the code ._.
00:02:42  <defunctzombie>haha
00:03:36  <Raynos>rvagg: https://gist.github.com/c0e76b102ddb7da6ea0f
00:05:31  <rvagg>Raynos: ahh, nice, I think.. wrap tests in before/after
00:05:55  <rvagg>I think I'll just put my effort into helping a buster-node package without all the browser deps, I like buster too much
00:06:15  <Raynos>buster is a disaster :p
00:06:21  <rvagg>writing tests in LevelDOWN with tap feels a lot less productive than buster
00:06:27  <substack>just use console.log()
00:06:34  <rvagg>buster is only a disaster to you cause you're an extremist Raynos!
00:06:35  <Raynos>anyway before and after are can also be implemented as higher order functions
00:06:49  <substack>rvagg: what does buster have that you miss?
00:06:51  <Raynos>rvagg: https://github.com/Raynos/assert-tap#example-with-test-interface
00:06:59  <Raynos>it pains me to have this silly "test sugar"
00:07:21  <Raynos>actually the test sugar is kind of important for sanity :p
00:07:32  <substack>flow control sugar should be handled by flow control libs
00:07:37  <substack>not test harnesses
00:07:47  <rvagg>substack: so much convenience for productivity++.. inbuilt sinon integration, setup/teardown, hierarchical tests with hierarchical setup/teardown
00:08:00  <rvagg>I know I'm not going to find agreement on this stuff in here so I won't argue about it
00:08:00  <substack>what is sinon
00:08:10  <substack>I don't really get the appeal of having all that
00:08:20  <rvagg>substack: mock/stub/spy utility.. I know you're a big fan of that stuff
00:08:29  <substack>what do you even need to set up?
00:08:32  <substack>or tear down for that matter
00:08:33  <guybrush>rvagg: why do you even start talking about that stuff in here :p
00:08:38  <rvagg>fixtures
00:08:46  <rvagg>okok, I'm going to stop! I need to be PRODUCTIVE
00:09:00  <substack>I like to just say "data"
00:09:03  <substack>instead of fixtures
00:09:13  <Raynos>is there a command to see all my globally installed node_modules
00:09:18  <substack>tests shouldn't be a separate category of program
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00:09:34  <Raynos>`rm ~/node_modules -rf`
00:09:38  <Raynos>that one was causing me a problem
00:10:16  <Raynos>substack: you still need tests to run one at a time otherwise the output is an unorderded parallel mess
00:10:20  <isaacs>substack: tap (and tape, etc.) are basically nothing BUT flow-control sugar
00:10:28  <isaacs>substack: test(thing1); test(thing2)
00:10:33  <isaacs>guarantees that thing2 runs after thing1
00:10:38  <isaacs>control flow!
00:10:42  <Raynos>:)
00:11:00  <isaacs>the point is that control flow modules should be custom-built for a specific purpose.
00:11:05  <isaacs>like tap is
00:11:10  <Raynos>rvagg: you shouldn't ask the "what do you mean test framework, I use assert" people about test frameworks :D
00:11:21  <substack>isaacs: I don't really use that feature of tap much
00:11:31  <substack>it's pretty much one test() to each file
00:11:33  <isaacs>substack: you don't use tap to run multiple tests?
00:11:44  <isaacs>right, but it's still controlling how to flow from file to file.
00:11:48  <substack>I split out multiple tests into multiple files
00:11:48  <Raynos>substack: that's pretty hard core.
00:11:50  <isaacs>substack: it's not running them all at once.
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00:11:55  <rvagg>Raynos: I know, my mistake, I simply wanted to ask isaacs about tearDown in tap, I should have done it elsewhere where such unsympathetic eyes weren't watching
00:12:16  <isaacs>substack: also, i really like sometimes having an array with a huge set of fixtures, and running a test for each one or something.
00:12:23  <substack>rvagg: you can do t.on('end', fn)
00:12:28  <isaacs>so my "tests" arejust adding a new line to the array
00:12:36  <guybrush>rvagg: its not about sympathism, its about strong opinions
00:12:41  <isaacs>whatever, though, talking about tests is stupid.
00:12:45  <isaacs>you should jsut write some tests.
00:13:13  <isaacs>if we spent half as much time writing tests as we do talking about writing tests, we'd have much better software and more of it.
00:13:15  <Raynos>rvagg: I do recommend you use mocha as your too many feature test framework. It's less retarded then buster
00:13:17  <rvagg>guybrush: it's like walking into an emacs group-hug and asking about sublime text
00:13:24  <guybrush>ahaha
00:13:28  <isaacs>rvagg: hahah
00:13:32  <rvagg>oh goodness, mocha! no thanks, I don't need globals in my globals
00:13:40  <rvagg>at least buster respects my global namespace
00:13:42  <isaacs>the python test runner that node uses is godawful
00:13:51  <isaacs>but the tests it runs are awesome.
00:14:00  <isaacs>just do a thing! throw an error if it's wrong! the end~!
00:14:26  <Raynos>isaacs: the problem is I like running multiple tests in one process when testing stateful things
00:14:32  <Raynos>you cant just throw and end the process
00:14:34  <Raynos>thats cheating
00:14:50  <substack>isaacs: throwing errors in browser tests is a terrible idea
00:14:56  <isaacs>Raynos: sure.
00:15:05  <isaacs>Raynos: so you set some flags and verify them all on process.on('exit')
00:15:06  <substack>because it gums up the machinery to get the results out of the browser
00:15:11  <isaacs>substack: yeah, true that
00:15:20  <rvagg>substack: thanks btw, didn't know about the 'end' event in tap, that's handy
00:15:24  <Raynos>isaacs: that's if you know what your testing for ;)
00:15:33  <isaacs>Raynos: right, but each test in node does
00:15:37  <isaacs>Raynos: because each test is one file
00:15:45  <isaacs>and some of them do more thna one thing, but whatever.
00:15:55  <Raynos>isaacs: I like running all my tests in one process so that if one fails for some weird reason it catches a stateful bug I havn't even thought about testing
00:15:56  <isaacs>you can also have multiple different tests that each set their own on('exit') listener
00:16:09  <guybrush>i have seen some tests with multiple test('test foo', ..) in it :p
00:16:14  <Raynos>isaacs: like test/simple/streams2-object ;)
00:16:22  <isaacs>yeah, those are ported from tap, that's why :)
00:16:32  <isaacs>i probably should have not done that in the first place.
00:17:04  <defunctzombie>Raynos: https://github.com/shtylman/engine.io-stream it probably broke stuff, but I also updated to latest versions
00:17:11  <defunctzombie>Raynos: there is an engine.io fix coming soon
00:17:16  <defunctzombie>that will need to be included
00:17:33  <Raynos>defunctzombie: if the examples work then cool
00:17:44  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I will try them out and let you know
00:17:53  <Raynos>isaacs: no, that's the new test I wrote thinking "oh boy. I can write tap-style tests for node core"
00:18:02  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I took out the other stream stuff for now, not sure how I feel about queing and such yet
00:18:12  <Raynos>"writing tests for node core. lalalala test framework. lalalala"
00:19:05  <isaacs>node-core tests are basically examples that throw
00:19:16  <mbalho>WHYYYY when i do httpresponse.end(string of length 3446798) does xhr in the browser only give me a string of length 3446771
00:19:25  <Raynos>defunctzombie: lolwut old streams. broken.
00:19:32  <mbalho>27 bytes differene!
00:19:35  <mbalho>difference
00:19:37  <mbalho>WTF INTERNET
00:19:40  <defunctzombie>Raynos: probably, I told you I broke it :p
00:19:41  <Raynos>defunctzombie: at least my version supported back pressure & buffering
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00:19:52  <defunctzombie>Raynos: yea, not sure if I want to handle that :/ or punt it up
00:19:55  <defunctzombie>to the end user
00:19:58  <defunctzombie>to drop a buffer stream on top
00:20:07  <defunctzombie>sigh... streams... jesus
00:20:14  <Raynos>that's why I use read-stream even though read-stream doesnt respect back pressure >_<
00:20:20  <Raynos>reams r hard
00:20:24  <Raynos>streams*
00:20:28  <defunctzombie>yes, that is why I don't want to handle it
00:20:30  <Raynos>I recommend you just dont use them ever :D
00:20:35  <defunctzombie>probably
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00:20:59  <substack>just use streams when it's easy
00:21:05  <substack>and don't use streams2. those are hard
00:21:25  <substack>only use streams2 when it gets easy
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00:28:22  <defunctzombie>Raynos: node core has a duplex stream or something
00:28:37  <defunctzombie>haha
00:28:47  <defunctzombie>substack: I think that should be a haiku or something
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00:40:18  <substack>crdt is creating multiple entries when I update records with .set() ;_;
00:41:50  <substack>multiple records with the same id
00:49:03  <defunctzombie>hahaha
00:50:11  <Raynos>defunctzombie: node core and I have the same things
00:50:38  <Raynos>read-stream, Readable, write-stream, Writable, read-write-stream, Duplex, transform-stream, Transform
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00:51:20  <defunctzombie>gotcha
00:51:40  <Raynos>i should rename read-write-stream to duplex-stream
00:51:43  <Raynos>I should also rewrite all of them
00:51:57  <Raynos>Oh!
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00:52:09  <Raynos>defunctzombie: you should totally rewrite them for me! it'll help you learn streams
00:52:17  <defunctzombie>haha
00:52:22  * defunctzombieadds to todo list :P
00:52:35  <Raynos>substack: it shouldnt >_<
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01:03:01  <defunctzombie>Raynos: https://github.com/shtylman/engine.io/commit/8bb99698b44877a53dd40ac420c5a1b753a03198
01:03:05  <defunctzombie>that will need to be merged in
01:03:51  <Raynos>thats silly
01:03:59  <Raynos>why would you have multiple engines on one web server
01:04:04  <Raynos>one web server, one ws handler
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03:04:14  <defunctzombie>Raynos: that is not a correct assumption
03:04:25  <Raynos>its a sensible assumption
03:04:28  <defunctzombie>if I want multiple websocket connections I should be able to have it
03:04:30  <Raynos>anyone doing something differently
03:04:31  <defunctzombie>no it is not
03:04:33  <Raynos>is doing somethign silly
03:04:36  <defunctzombie>no they are not
03:04:43  <defunctzombie>you don't understand the usecase then
03:04:56  <defunctzombie>fyi, tryme uses several websocket streams
03:05:16  <defunctzombie>each project is a websocket connection at the project url
03:08:38  <Raynos>no
03:08:42  <Raynos>they should all connect once
03:08:51  <Raynos>to the same uri
03:08:54  <Raynos>and then mux-demux
03:08:57  <defunctzombie>why?
03:08:57  <Raynos>that single ws uri
03:09:05  <Raynos>or send a header
03:09:07  <Raynos>over the websocket
03:09:10  <defunctzombie>there is a url per project
03:09:12  <Raynos>I mean sure your thing could work
03:09:20  <Raynos>but dont embed data in the ws connection uri
03:09:25  <Raynos>embed data in the TCP stream
03:09:29  <Raynos>its TCP man :/
03:09:41  <Raynos>one server, one endpoint, one ws server
03:09:44  <defunctzombie>?
03:09:45  <defunctzombie>no
03:09:50  <defunctzombie>these are just resource url
03:09:58  <defunctzombie>what you say doesn't matter
03:10:05  <defunctzombie>I can either do resource urls
03:10:13  <defunctzombie>or have single endpoints, I choose resources url
03:10:16  <defunctzombie>it made it much easier
03:10:22  <defunctzombie>the client never sends anything
03:10:25  <defunctzombie>just gets push updates
03:10:28  <defunctzombie>from that resource url
03:10:40  <defunctzombie>stop overengineering these problems into stupid streams :p
03:10:57  <Raynos>:D
03:11:06  <Raynos>Ok your thing is valid
03:11:11  <Raynos>actually no :P
03:11:13  <Raynos>screw you
03:11:15  <defunctzombie>hahaha
03:11:16  <Raynos>use event source
03:11:27  <defunctzombie>clearly.. I need more modules hahaha
03:11:29  <substack>it depends on how many simultaneous requests you'll need to have open
03:11:59  <substack>browsers set pretty low limits on the number of websocket connections you can have open at once
03:13:48  <defunctzombie>I think whatever way the person wants to do it is fine, but if you support something like paths the shit better work
03:13:52  <defunctzombie>thus my bugfix :)
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03:20:24  <guybrush>maybe this is a dumb question, but i kinda dont get why i should use redis in favor of just node-buffers/typedarrays and dump all the things from time to time into mongo/couchdb?
03:21:19  <substack>scuttlebutt is good for the kinds of problems that people usually use redis for
03:21:54  <guybrush>i still didnt get fully into scuttlebutt, but yes i see where this is better than redis
03:22:03  <guybrush>just run multiple scuttlebutt-nodes
03:22:24  <guybrush>or am i missing something?
03:22:39  <guybrush>i am playing with the idea to just drop redis from my stack
03:23:25  <guybrush>i dont get why redis is superior to just using the memory of the node-process/or buffers..
03:24:05  <guybrush>i mean its just the same only that i have the damn api-layer inbetween... for.... nothing actually, at least i dont see the benefits
03:25:16  <guybrush>then the argument to use redis-pubsub in favor of 0mq because i use redis already - just goes away too :p
03:25:47  <guybrush>but maybe i am missing some important point?
03:44:47  <defunctzombie>are you using enough modules?
03:44:51  <defunctzombie>or streams?
03:44:56  <defunctzombie>you probably need more of both :D
03:52:43  <ryanseddon>substack: did you ever find out the culprit of my repo hanging in pending state on ci-testling? http://ci.testling.com/ryanseddon/H5F
03:53:33  <guybrush>defunctzombie: me? im using a whole lot of modules haha
03:53:41  <defunctzombie>haha
03:53:44  <defunctzombie>clearly not enough
03:53:52  <guybrush>but not so much streaming-stuff, just because i really only want use what i _really_ get
03:54:11  <guybrush>and all this stream-madness makes me dizzy in the head tbh
03:55:04  <guybrush>also the fact that the api changes makes me want to wait for it until i really try to understand everything behind it
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03:56:32  <substack>ryanseddon: there's a bug in github-push-receive that causes some repos to not clone properly
03:57:27  <ryanseddon>substack: what doesn't it like about mine?
03:57:43  <substack>not sure
03:58:52  <substack>you could try sending a test hook again
04:02:59  <ryanseddon>trying now
04:06:33  <ryanseddon>still pending
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04:39:05  <Raynos>Guybrush: Redis is crossprocess
04:39:20  <guybrush>well
04:39:31  <guybrush>i can just run a process which acts as storage
04:39:36  <guybrush>so its cross-process too?
04:40:34  <Raynos>But then you have a custom tcp communication protocol
04:40:36  <guybrush>but yes i get what you want to say, when i do that i might want to use redis
04:40:39  <guybrush>yes
04:41:05  <Raynos>And your going to rewrite half of redistribution for lulz
04:41:10  <guybrush>there were just some crazy ideas in my head going arround
04:41:35  <Raynos>For single process in memory I use objects
04:41:52  <guybrush>ok
04:42:14  <Raynos>You can also use levelup. In process and fast and persists to disk
04:42:22  <guybrush>you still have to implement persistance
04:42:59  <Raynos>Nope. I use volatile objects
04:43:11  <guybrush>i really like volatile things
04:43:17  <guybrush>but you cant solve everything with it :D
04:44:34  <guybrush>though thats what i had in mind... a node-process that has some objects in it and emits the changing of the datastructure
04:44:45  <Raynos>That's what databases are for
04:45:04  <guybrush>i just dont like databases somehow
04:45:28  <Raynos>Try levelup or rethinkdb
04:45:40  <guybrush>yet another db i would have to learn haha
04:45:42  <guybrush>fu
04:45:51  <guybrush>and next week there will be another thing
04:46:20  <guybrush>and basically im learning new dbs all day long and try to implement them into my stack
04:46:28  <guybrush>instead of actually solving the problems
04:49:34  <guybrush>you guys run rethink-db in production?
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05:21:46  <Raynos>no
05:21:51  <Raynos>im just throwing new dbs at you
05:21:52  <Raynos>to troll you
05:21:59  <guybrush>i have to admit it looks cool lol
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05:53:26  <Raynos>I have discovered emeryville
05:53:33  <Raynos>I now know where to purchase furniture
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06:43:31  <guybrush>woaah i just thought omg the api of the rethinkdb is very different to the usual node-style apis, but Raynos is already on fixing it in the issues :D
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07:24:23  <jesusabdullah>why do people think hoarders is inflating their module download stats seriously
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07:24:50  <jesusabdullah>I'm starting to think that hoarders is *actually* going over these people's heads
07:24:59  <jesusabdullah>22:24 < jesusabdullah> why do people think hoarders is inflating their module download stats seriously
07:25:03  <jesusabdullah>dominictarr: ^^
07:26:05  <Raynos>jesusabdullah: because it does
07:26:14  <Raynos>the hoarders bot
07:26:17  <Raynos>downloads the files
07:26:19  <Raynos>periodically
07:26:25  <Raynos>and puts them in node_modules
07:26:29  <Raynos>and publishes it to npm
07:26:38  <dominictarr>does it download the files?
07:26:56  <dominictarr>it just requests to the registry
07:29:05  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: no, it doesn't
07:29:19  <jesusabdullah>All it does is request a list of all documents, and dump the data into a package.json
07:29:34  <jesusabdullah>unless you actually run npm install hoarders you don't actually dl anything
07:30:08  <Raynos>oh I see
07:30:40  <jesusabdullah>The thing I don't like here, honestly, is that I have to explain to people that hoarders is a joke -_-;
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07:39:38  <Raynos>jesusabdullah: make moar jokes
07:39:56  <Raynos>a good one would be to republish all of npm
07:40:05  <Raynos>as `com.{{author}}.module-name`
07:40:14  <Raynos>`npm now 40k modules`
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07:40:28  <Raynos>actually
07:40:36  <Raynos>only republish all of tjs modules like that
07:40:58  <Raynos>`com.learnboost.visionmedia.{{project}}`
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07:47:27  <jesusabdullah>lol
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08:08:21  <dominictarr>Raynos: republish the modules of the people who compain about hoarders
08:08:40  <dominictarr>TROLLBOT
08:08:45  <jesusabdullah>step 1: refactor blacklist to separate project
08:09:07  <jesusabdullah>step 2: download projects
08:09:24  <jesusabdullah>step 3: rename to com.{user}.{moduleName}
08:09:31  <jesusabdullah>bbiaf
08:10:15  <dominictarr>or, make a bot that checks how many downloads each package has, and downloads all projects, until everyproject has exactly the same number of downloads
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08:19:50  <dominictarr>mbalho:
08:20:16  <dominictarr>mbalho: hey do you want to give a talk at a js meetup in wellington?
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12:11:09  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
12:11:09  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
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14:44:10  <hij1nx>dominictarr: do you have any references regarding our conversations about wifi?
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17:43:53  <defunctzombie>I want to run things on nodejitsu
17:44:34  <defunctzombie>but when it becomes more of a pain in the ass it do that than host it myself, I start to be sad
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18:21:38  <ralphtheninja>defunctzombie_zz: what kind of problems have you been running into?
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18:59:19  <Raynos>dominictarr: xd
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19:13:54  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: ping
19:14:03  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: what's up?
19:14:15  <Raynos>I'm going to integrate Raynos/live-reload into browservefy
19:14:21  <Raynos>as an opt in flag
19:14:37  <Raynos>like `browservefy --live-reload` or `browservefy --live-reload={{PORT}}`
19:15:05  <chrisdickinson>interesting
19:15:46  <chrisdickinson>and if it's not switched on there's no overhead?
19:16:02  <chrisdickinson>also, out of curiosity, what's the relation between browservefy and browserify-server?
19:17:15  <Raynos>browserify-server is a bunch of CLI things
19:17:20  <Raynos>It basically scaffolds out this ( https://github.com/Raynos/browserify-server/tree/master/resources )
19:17:28  <Raynos>which I think is the wrong way to do things
19:17:42  <Raynos>right now I use it as a better browserify ( https://github.com/Raynos/browserify-server/blob/master/index.js )
19:18:31  <chrisdickinson>ah ha
19:18:32  <chrisdickinson>okay
19:18:51  <chrisdickinson>cool, so long as it doesn't overly complicate things or add a lot of overhead, i'm totally +1.
19:19:15  <chrisdickinson>if you could include what the use case is on the PR so i can use that for documentation, that'd be amazing too
19:20:19  <Raynos>its will watch the filesystem
19:20:23  <Raynos>and refresh the browser
19:20:26  <Raynos>when your code changes
19:20:32  <Raynos>i.e. not hitting f5
19:22:42  <chrisdickinson>awesome
19:22:46  <chrisdickinson>+!
19:22:49  <chrisdickinson>… +1, rather.
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19:25:53  <Raynos>funny thing is this is converging back to the original version of my browserify-server except that one was shit :D
19:26:31  <defunctzombie>ralphtheninja: mostly out of date node, poor introspection on why a deployment failed, sometimes memory issues
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19:28:18  <chrisdickinson>haha
19:28:38  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: yeah, ideally i'd like to keep the features minimal, but auto-reload sounds very useful
19:28:53  <chrisdickinson>minimal, and unopinionated.
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19:32:45  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: https://github.com/chrisdickinson/browservefy/pull/6
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19:35:39  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: would you be okay with just calling it `--live`?
19:35:49  <Raynos>works for me
19:35:52  <chrisdickinson>cool
19:36:25  <chrisdickinson>also, i usually put excludes in .git/info/exclude
19:36:32  <chrisdickinson>but am okay with adding a .gitignore
19:36:58  <chrisdickinson>hm
19:37:01  <chrisdickinson>only other bit
19:37:08  <chrisdickinson>`http://localhost`.
19:38:15  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: is there any way that we could simply merge the two servers into one?
19:38:24  <chrisdickinson>i'm mainly thinking of testing some code with live reload on a vm
19:38:48  <juliangruber>chrisdickinson: let supervisor handle the reloading? I sometimes generate static js and want to say "hey, exlude that"
19:39:49  * chrisdickinsonnods
19:40:05  <chrisdickinson>if there's no easy way, that's totally cool
19:40:42  <juliangruber>with supervisor and dominictarr's reloader you get that almost for free
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19:41:21  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: bonus points for chrome: http://developer.chrome.com/dev/extensions/devtools.inspectedWindow.html#event-onResourceContentCommitted
19:41:58  <chrisdickinson>being able to edit in the web dev toolbar and use live-reload or browservefy to commit the file back to the fs.
19:43:25  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: You can merge the two into one but you have to refactor live-reload
19:43:43  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: the localhost:{{PORT}} can only be fixed if you merge the two into one server
19:44:01  <chrisdickinson>yeah, ideally i'd like to do that, but didn't want to make you do extra work
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19:44:58  <chrisdickinson>actually
19:45:00  <chrisdickinson>hmm
19:45:38  <chrisdickinson>it'd be neat to package an extension that combined live reload with a chrome dev tools plugin that reloaded the files in-situ
19:45:54  <chrisdickinson>so, edit a file, and your changes happen to your code without a refresh
19:47:54  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: thats completely different
19:47:59  <chrisdickinson>yeah
19:48:05  <chrisdickinson>maybe a good end goal though
19:48:24  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: you should just edit HOSTS on the vm and change localhost :P
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19:49:04  <Raynos>juliangruber: live-reload solves the issue of "one server, many browser reloads". not the "cleanly reload the browser when the server restarts"
19:49:29  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: fair enough
19:49:39  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: I dont care about editing js in the chrome dev tools tbh. my workflow is stay in text editor, look at browser
19:49:56  <juliangruber>Raynos: where's the difference?
19:50:10  <Raynos>juliangruber: one doesn't restart the server
19:50:13  <Raynos>the other restarts the server
19:50:24  <Raynos>dominictarr's reloader only works when you restart or change the server code
19:50:40  <Raynos>in fact browservefy is about testing local index.js browser apps WITHOUT any server
19:50:52  <Raynos>atm I use it for DOM widget examples
19:51:49  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: it's `--live` now
19:51:50  <juliangruber>ah ok, sweet
19:51:54  <chrisdickinson>cool
19:53:01  <juliangruber>out of curiosity: what do you guys make money with?
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19:55:12  <CoverSlide>one of those machines in north korea
19:55:26  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: out of curiosity, if i made it so that running browservefy with no arguments outputted help, would that break things for you?
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19:57:28  <juliangruber>meh, that was wrong :D
19:57:35  <juliangruber>what do you guys do for a living?
19:57:47  <chrisdickinson>i'm a JS dev at urban airship
19:57:54  <defunctzombie>Raynos: chrisdickinson: why do you guys spawn to bundle some js?
19:58:01  <defunctzombie>you know there is an api right?
19:58:06  <chrisdickinson>defunctzombie: i know
19:58:10  <defunctzombie>k
19:58:14  <chrisdickinson>i think this has come up before
19:58:21  <Raynos>defunctzombie: `browservefy ./examples/simple.js --browserify='browserify-server' --live -- --debug --bundle`
19:58:37  <defunctzombie>probably :)
19:58:39  <chrisdickinson>i might add a "why we spawn"
19:58:41  <chrisdickinson>haha
19:58:50  <defunctzombie>I still don't quite know why
19:58:51  <Raynos>althought maybe `browservefy ./examples/simple.ks --live -- browserify-server --bundle --debug`
19:59:00  <Raynos>would be a nicer API
19:59:09  <juliangruber>chrisdickinson: looks interesting!
19:59:14  <defunctzombie>I use my bundler as well as browserify all without spawning
19:59:38  <Raynos>defunctzombie: we spawn because I can then configure it from the CLI to be like "building means run this command"
19:59:49  <chrisdickinson>defunctzombie: one nice side effect is that if someone has browserify pinned as a devDep, browservefy will use that browserify instead a global one
20:00:05  <chrisdickinson>or, as Raynos said, a custom build command
20:00:06  <defunctzombie>browserify should not be a devDep imho
20:00:13  <chrisdickinson>or a dep
20:00:14  <defunctzombie>at least not for modules
20:00:22  <chrisdickinson>it's useful for things like voxeljs
20:00:29  <Raynos>it should
20:00:40  <Raynos>all dev tools go into devDeps
20:00:56  <defunctzombie>Raynos: no, it shouldn't
20:01:10  <Raynos>if your shitty thing requires a global browserify or a global mocha then fuck you
20:01:13  <defunctzombie>whatever you use to bundle is unrelated
20:01:28  <Raynos>defunctzombie: browserify is devDeps because I need to bundle my examples to run them
20:01:33  <defunctzombie>if every js module depends on brwoserify that is stupid
20:01:38  <Raynos>i.e. it's a dev tool to verify my examples work
20:01:51  <defunctzombie>Raynos: any number of tools fill that need
20:01:59  <Raynos>sure you can use whatever you want
20:02:01  <Raynos>I use browserify
20:02:08  <Raynos>you can have shytlman/node-script in devDeps
20:02:12  <Raynos>for running your examples
20:02:13  <defunctzombie>no, I mean I should be able to use any number of tools
20:02:22  <defunctzombie>all you have to conform to is "require"
20:02:49  <defunctzombie>that is like saying you test in chrome, so you should list chrome as a dev tool in devDeps
20:03:06  <chrisdickinson>hah
20:03:07  <defunctzombie>same reason I hate listing uglify in dev deps
20:03:19  <chrisdickinson>i just realized that that means browservefy would technically work with r.js :|
20:03:32  <defunctzombie>wtf is r.js
20:03:40  <chrisdickinson>require.js's version of browserify
20:03:45  <chrisdickinson>hilarious.
20:04:27  <Raynos>defunctzombie: ... look.
20:04:41  <defunctzombie>I think js should just be written using require
20:04:43  <Raynos>defunctzombie: I need a bundler to be able to run the examples of my module to verify it works
20:04:47  <Raynos>that bundler should not be global
20:04:48  <defunctzombie>everything else is an afterthought :)
20:04:53  <defunctzombie>why not?
20:04:54  <Raynos>anyone else should be able to fork my module
20:04:59  <Raynos>run `npm i`
20:04:59  <defunctzombie>it is a tool
20:05:04  <defunctzombie>cat is global
20:05:08  <defunctzombie>ls is global
20:05:08  <Raynos>and he should be able to run `npm run example` or `npm run build-examples`
20:05:13  <Raynos>and he should be able to do so
20:05:23  <defunctzombie>npm is global
20:05:24  <Raynos>`cat` and `ls` are not cross platform, don't use them
20:05:35  <Raynos>npm is an acceptable global
20:05:46  <defunctzombie>just tell them they need browserify installed to run deps, honestly I don't care
20:05:55  <defunctzombie>just trying to say I think it is silly ;)
20:05:58  <Raynos>I think anyone should be able to fork my module, download it, run `npm i` and use `npm run {{cmd}}` to do everything I do in my development workflow
20:06:13  <defunctzombie>fair enough
20:06:19  <Raynos>defunctzombie: is your test framework global too?
20:06:25  <defunctzombie>just saying that I could just run browserify-server instead
20:06:47  <Raynos>sure but.
20:06:48  <defunctzombie>no, cause that actually matters for runtime
20:06:52  <defunctzombie>browserify doesn't
20:07:05  <defunctzombie>not sure why I am having this debate honestly :D
20:08:02  <Raynos>browserify shouldnt go into dependencies
20:08:03  <Raynos>thats silly
20:08:08  <Raynos>unless your writing browserify-server
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20:34:43  <mbalho>dominictarr: is there a wellington.js meetup scheduled already/
20:35:43  <dominictarr>well, there is one they have occasionally
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20:36:05  <dominictarr>I was prodding the organizer to have one while I'm in town
20:37:06  <dominictarr>he was basically "great!" and then two weeks later…. "i'm too lazy/busy - couldn't find another speaker, lets just do beer.js"
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20:38:30  <dominictarr>but if you want to speak, (an old presentation, whatevs, no one will realize), then we'll have one!
20:39:42  <Raynos>mbalho: instead of presenting. just live code a voxel module
20:39:44  <Raynos>what can go wrong
20:42:29  <defunctzombie>nothing
20:44:05  <mbalho>dominictarr: gotcha. i am hesitant to commit though because i kind of dont want to be in a city the whole time i'm there
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20:44:40  <dominictarr>fair enough,
20:44:50  <dominictarr>how long will you be here?
20:47:39  <mbalho>dominictarr: 18-25th
20:47:55  <dominictarr>right - that is only 7 days
20:48:09  <dominictarr>not much to see stuff, where are you flying from-to ?
20:48:23  <mbalho>dominictarr: in wellington out wellington
20:48:57  <mbalho>dominictarr: i'd be happy doing a couple day hikes or a 1-2 day thingy
20:49:23  <dominictarr>right! that is what I was thinking!
20:49:46  <dominictarr>what time do you arrive on the 18th?
20:50:02  <mbalho>dominictarr: unfortunately late, 11:30PM or something
20:50:22  <dominictarr>ah, right - that is when I get back too
20:50:35  <mbalho>dominictarr: yea all the flights had a layover in austrailia
20:51:17  <dominictarr>right - also timezones - I'm BNE->WLG leave 5pm arrive 12:15
20:51:34  <dominictarr>or something
20:52:31  <mbalho>dominictarr: http://i.imgur.com/0fr4rQs.png
20:52:44  <dominictarr>sweet!
20:53:39  <mbalho>dominictarr: i was looking around and saw theres the ferry to picton
20:54:03  <mbalho>dominictarr: with the eventual goal of abel tasman, though that may be too far
20:54:21  <dominictarr>yes, although I would recommend taking sounds air to nelson
20:54:45  <mbalho>ah cool
20:54:47  <dominictarr>cheap flight - and you see heaps more than the ferry
20:55:04  <mbalho>nice
20:55:05  <dominictarr>and you land in abletasman
20:55:46  <mbalho>dominictarr: i guess there is a ~4 day hike in abel tasman but i bet its fun to just screw around for a day or two up there as well
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20:56:41  <dominictarr>that hike is a classic, but you'd need to add a day either side to get in and out
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20:57:06  <dominictarr>I'll ask some of my hiking friends to make recommendations
20:57:12  <mbalho>cool!
20:57:21  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: kind of a hairy merge -- did a filter-branch to remove node_modules -- but pushed and published
20:57:28  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: http://tryme.jit.su/
20:57:45  <dominictarr>Not found
20:58:02  <mbalho>defunctzombie: ahh yea heres what i ended up making yesterday voxel-creator.jit.su
20:58:16  <Raynos>oh hi
20:58:28  <dominictarr>I gotta go have breakfast - will keep you posted mbalho !
20:58:29  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: thanks
20:58:33  <chrisdickinson>thank you!
20:58:47  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: refresh? I hate deploying on nodejitsu now
20:59:12  <defunctzombie>mbalho: awesome!
20:59:37  <mbalho>defunctzombie: i need a way to cache modules in the browser though
20:59:45  <defunctzombie>?
20:59:47  <defunctzombie>what do you mean
20:59:49  <mbalho>defunctzombie: and request new ones from the server and ultimately make the bundles on the client
20:59:52  <dominictarr>defunctzombie: looks good!
21:00:04  <mbalho>defunctzombie: right now it takes ~5 seconds each time you build cause it downloads a browserify bundle each time
21:00:05  <dominictarr>make the button do something though
21:00:11  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: want me to add a link to your documentation tool?
21:00:13  <defunctzombie>haha
21:00:26  <dominictarr>sure, http://github.com/dominictarr/demonstrate
21:00:36  <defunctzombie>mbalho: that is just a matter of caching the js resource?
21:00:48  <defunctzombie>depends how you have this thing setup
21:00:55  <defunctzombie>it is all doable :)
21:00:58  <mbalho>defunctzombie: the client downloads tar+gzipped bundles
21:01:14  <defunctzombie>the client being?
21:01:17  <mbalho>defunctzombie: so i would need to change it to download individual modules and then do a browserify-esque step on the client
21:01:24  <mbalho>defunctzombie: client = web browser
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21:01:36  <defunctzombie>and what is a bundle?
21:01:44  <mbalho>defunctzombie: browserify foo.js -o bundle.js
21:01:46  <defunctzombie>k
21:01:50  <mbalho>defunctzombie: foo.js is what you write in that editor
21:02:00  <defunctzombie>I would do all the browserify on the server
21:02:09  <defunctzombie>and ship the client the final built thing
21:02:13  <defunctzombie>right
21:02:14  <mbalho>defunctzombie: thats what i am doing it is just really slow
21:02:21  <defunctzombie>and you can have all the voxel builtin modules
21:02:24  <defunctzombie>be the cached stuff
21:02:31  <defunctzombie>so you only ship the stuff they typed
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21:02:35  <defunctzombie>versus the voxel stuff
21:02:49  <defunctzombie>I recommend trying that approach as I think it will be relatively easy
21:03:01  <mbalho>defunctzombie: the issue i am having is figuring out how to take a browesrify bundle and add new modules to it after it has been created
21:03:14  <defunctzombie>mbalho: browserify doesn't really do those things iirc
21:03:22  <mbalho>defunctzombie: right thats why it sucks
21:03:22  <defunctzombie>that is why I wrote mine, so I could experiment more
21:03:33  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
21:03:33  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
21:03:34  <defunctzombie>but you can concatenate js
21:03:44  <defunctzombie>I have gotten browserify to do intersesting things by doing this:
21:03:48  <defunctzombie>make separate bundles
21:03:56  <defunctzombie>and just merge them together if you want
21:04:19  <mbalho>defunctzombie: yea that sounds like waht i want but it would be nice if this was a library and not a bunch of hacky bundle concatenation
21:04:22  <defunctzombie>but brwoserify doesn't have the concept of "externals" which is where bundle A depends on bundle B
21:04:37  <defunctzombie>and expects bundle B to be shipped separately
21:04:42  <mbalho>defunctzombie: yea
21:04:47  <defunctzombie>that is why I needed so I wrote in support into script for it
21:04:52  <mbalho>defunctzombie: i want node-ikea
21:05:02  <mbalho>defunctzombie: you get all the pieces shipped to you
21:05:06  <mbalho>defunctzombie: then you assemble at home
21:05:08  <defunctzombie>haha
21:05:11  <defunctzombie>it is doable
21:05:14  <fotoverite>And John Coultran can write a song about it.
21:05:26  <mbalho>fotoverite: ann coulter?
21:05:35  <defunctzombie>mbalho: https://github.com/shtylman/node-enchilada#with-ingredients
21:05:54  <defunctzombie>that was the initial idea that got me to implement some basic support for bundles that depend on others
21:06:20  <mbalho>defunctzombie: cool
21:06:27  <Raynos>dominictarr: can I make a PR on demonstrate for `--server` flag?
21:06:43  <defunctzombie>Raynos: that becomes tryme hahah
21:06:55  <Raynos>true
21:06:58  <Raynos>I prefer your styling
21:07:06  <defunctzombie>the styling is the same really
21:07:19  <defunctzombie>we could even agree on a consistent one to match github better
21:07:32  <Raynos>next question is
21:07:37  <defunctzombie>the readme stuff styling was meant to look like demonstrate and such
21:07:41  <Raynos>what hacks can you do to make the README.md in github interactive?
21:07:53  <Raynos>i dont want the extra click :P
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21:09:02  <defunctzombie>Raynos: browser extension
21:09:23  <defunctzombie>which hoists the github readme and replaces it with the tryme readme
21:09:44  <defunctzombie>the tryme readme page is self contained (minus the style file if any)
21:13:15  <Raynos>that could work BUT
21:17:22  <chrisdickinson>do something like http://bl.ocks.org/
21:17:32  <chrisdickinson>or http://gist.io/
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21:38:13  <mbalho>im making a blocks.org clone for voxel.js right now, it will have login with github and save/load from gist ID based on URL
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21:56:47  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
21:56:47  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
22:01:32  <defunctzombie>mbalho: and it will be interactive right?
22:01:52  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: have you seen tryme?
22:01:59  <Raynos>I guess tryme is different
22:03:27  <defunctzombie>tryme is meant to be interactive, I think the others are viewers
22:03:38  <defunctzombie>gist.io has an interactive component I think
22:03:44  <defunctzombie>blocks doesn't
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22:15:40  <mbalho>mine will be interactive but you can 'save to gist' when you are done editing, just like git add + git commit
22:16:18  <defunctzombie>cool
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22:56:16  <defunctzombie>wtf is installd (on OSX) and why is it suddenly consuming 200% of my cpu
22:56:53  <substack>mbalho: check out the --no-prelude option
22:59:19  <Raynos>dominictarr: woh demonstrate is a ghetto version of interactivate without all the bullshit! nice.
22:59:27  <Raynos>didnt realize its just a pretty textarea
22:59:31  <Raynos>and theres no crazy browserify hacks
23:00:35  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I don't think he is here
23:02:09  <defunctzombie>xcode is a satan upon my computer
23:02:17  <defunctzombie>I don't even use it and it is destroying my computer
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23:09:18  <Raynos>isaacs: how do I know that your npm couch registry is not corrupted
23:09:40  <Raynos>given the recent rubygems disaster how do I gain trust that what I npm install is what the author published?
23:11:27  <isaacs>Raynos: it's as safe as their login info
23:11:35  <isaacs>Raynos: and mine, since i'm a db admin
23:11:49  <Raynos>is there any kind of signing thing
23:11:53  <isaacs>Raynos: there's a checksum
23:11:59  <Raynos>so that I can verify what I downloaded against some kind of trusted thing
23:12:07  <isaacs>Raynos: but no signatures. it's on ythe todo list
23:12:13  <Raynos>I see
23:12:16  <Raynos>PR welcome? :D
23:12:32  <Raynos>`PR: buggy signature implementation. enjoy`
23:12:49  <isaacs>sure
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23:13:36  <isaacs>there's gpg on unixes, and windows has some other thing. it's not trivial by a long shot
23:15:16  <substack>Raynos: how do you also know that a package published by a genuine author isn't actually a rootkit
23:15:43  <defunctzombie>this ^
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23:17:38  <mbalho>substack: i cant use browserify for single modules because of the 'doesnt work with relative requires in -r mode' bug
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23:24:39  <defunctzombie>substack: if you get around to browserify updates I have some notes about the client require side
23:24:47  <defunctzombie>so you don't need all that path stuff, etc
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23:55:03  <Raynos>substack: I dont. All I can do is download something and verify some kind of crypto thing against a token the author has given to me on a floppy disk or something
23:55:40  <Raynos>defunctzombie: go to SF. Spend a weekend with substack writing browserify 2.0
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