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00:00:08  <guybrush>hij1nx: i think thats apples and oranges :D
00:00:15  <hij1nx>guybrush: exactly ;)
00:00:17  <defunctzombie>what about tomatoes?
00:00:31  <hij1nx>defunctzombie: exactly more.
00:01:17  <guybrush>hij1nx: sorry im really lazy didnt look at what its exactly but your node-chrome starts the browser with the app in it?
00:01:30  <hij1nx>so, if you want to make desktop apps, it should be a minimal investment. and by minimal i mean almost nothing.
00:01:32  <guybrush>like when i close the browser the app gets closed?
00:01:42  <hij1nx>guybrush: yes
00:02:00  <guybrush>is it any different to appjs?
00:02:01  <hij1nx>guybrush: it starts the browser (with no url bar)
00:02:09  <guybrush>ah ok
00:02:12  <hij1nx>guybrush: about 3,500 lines of code difference
00:02:23  <hij1nx>guybrush: and there is no api to learn
00:02:33  <guybrush>i guess it only works on osx and what not
00:02:48  <hij1nx>oh, no url bar and no tabs etc. looks like a desktop app.
00:02:59  <hij1nx>guybrush: works wherever chrome works
00:03:21  <hij1nx>correction; it works wherever chrome and node work. so, pretty much everywhere that matters.
00:03:24  <guybrush>ah ok, will check it out if its really that simple and little code
00:03:43  <hij1nx>https://github.com/hij1nx/node-chrome
00:03:54  <defunctzombie>guybrush: you should check out chrome pacakged apps
00:03:59  <guybrush>the thing with such apps
00:04:01  <defunctzombie>those are not just tags
00:04:03  <defunctzombie>*tabs
00:04:04  <guybrush>you have to ship node with it
00:04:15  <defunctzombie>guybrush: I am saying you don't :)
00:04:17  <guybrush>and maybe chrome too if the user doesnt have it..
00:04:20  <defunctzombie>cause you can use chrome socket stuff
00:04:27  <hij1nx>guybrush: disk is cheap.
00:04:33  <guybrush>i agree
00:04:47  <defunctzombie>chrome does filesystem and network stuff, you don't need node ;)
00:04:51  <guybrush>the user will end up with 100 node-binaries for his 100 apps :D
00:05:04  <hij1nx>guybrush: no, just one
00:05:11  <defunctzombie>just 0 :p
00:05:23  <hij1nx>defunctzombie: or 0. if you dont like node.
00:05:30  <guybrush>so you make it use global installs with npm or sth?
00:05:32  <hij1nx>defunctzombie: you can build everything out of hemp.
00:05:38  <defunctzombie>\o/
00:05:56  <defunctzombie>I think introducing node into it is not needed
00:06:06  <defunctzombie>I had great success using all the modules I wanted
00:06:16  <defunctzombie>with the chrome socket stuff
00:06:17  <hij1nx>actually, everything should be made out of hemp. cloths, gas, cars, even food. all food can be made from hemp.
00:06:25  <guybrush>my friends use windows, all of them
00:06:36  <defunctzombie>hij1nx: is on a tangent hahaha
00:06:40  <guybrush>so when i make an app for them, i give them node with it
00:06:48  <defunctzombie>guybrush: what type of app?
00:06:57  <hij1nx>defunctzombie: ok, yes, i was taking that one sort of far ;)
00:07:05  <defunctzombie>hahaha
00:07:07  <guybrush>a irc-chat and some other stupid things
00:07:11  <defunctzombie>guybrush: https://github.com/shtylman/eyersee
00:07:18  <defunctzombie>that is an irc client as a "chrome" app
00:07:20  <defunctzombie>no node
00:07:30  <defunctzombie>but uses modules and anything else I want
00:07:32  <guybrush>interesting
00:07:47  <guybrush>you have to make sure the modules you depend on dont depend on node-stuff
00:08:20  <hij1nx>`node-stuff` is a great name for a module.
00:08:26  <defunctzombie>guybrush: not necessarily ;)
00:08:39  <defunctzombie>guybrush: if your bundler shims away node core modules it doesn't matter
00:08:50  <defunctzombie>you can have it shim away to whatever backend you want
00:08:51  <guybrush>ah i see
00:09:00  <defunctzombie>and many modules out there are not node specific actually
00:09:11  <guybrush>oh yes i forgot, some of them dont use chrome
00:09:24  <guybrush>but i should make em
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00:10:48  <defunctzombie>guybrush: yes, you should
00:10:55  <defunctzombie>there is very little reason not to use chrome :)
00:11:21  <guybrush>oh i think firefox is nice too
00:11:28  <guybrush>i really like mozilla in general
00:11:29  <defunctzombie>guybrush: but really, if you make a desktop app using chrome, shipping chrome if they don't have it is not a problem, cause they can get more utility from it than just your app
00:11:34  <defunctzombie>guybrush: I love mozilla
00:11:59  <defunctzombie>but chrome is just too good hahah, mostly cause google sees more issues
00:12:12  <guybrush>its just faster
00:12:19  <defunctzombie>I attended a talk by one of the google ssl/chrome people a while back
00:12:30  <defunctzombie>it basically solidified the use of chrome for me for a while
00:12:36  <defunctzombie>because of their approach to general web security
00:12:40  <defunctzombie>not just a faster browser
00:12:47  <guybrush>haha
00:12:51  <guybrush>if you want security
00:12:59  <guybrush>use the ff-fork of the tor-guys
00:13:07  <guybrush>everything else is just not "secure"
00:13:15  <defunctzombie>hij1nx: crx-less seems cool as a bootstrapping method
00:13:25  <defunctzombie>but would still need the app tarballed or whatnot from what I can tell
00:13:33  <defunctzombie>guybrush: yea, that is true
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00:24:49  <dominictarr>hij1nx: node-chrome looks really good
00:25:45  <dominictarr>is there overhead if you start a large number of them, vs just opening the tabs?
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00:33:16  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: https://github.com/chrisdickinson/browservefy/pull/7/files
00:34:01  <chrisdickinson>+1
00:45:25  <Raynos>Also your version works differently from mine
00:45:34  <Raynos>I'm going to debug it at some point but --live doesnt work cleanly
00:46:26  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: https://github.com/chrisdickinson/browservefy/blob/master/index.js#L74
00:46:33  <Raynos>that's broken. You have "' and '"
00:50:17  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: ah! willfix.
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02:50:21  <Raynos>Anyone have a library for postMessage?
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03:04:54  <st_luke>hij1nx: http://2013.poster.thirteen23.com/generator/
03:05:28  <fotoverite>nice
03:10:27  <jjjjohnnny>supply dom objects or demand
03:11:04  <jjjjohnnny>supply side is bullshit economy right
03:11:06  <jjjjohnnny>so demand
03:11:20  <jjjjohnnny>my module is going to do something
03:11:37  <jjjjohnnny>to an element
03:12:01  <jjjjohnnny>give my module that element
03:13:07  <jjjjohnnny>should the same go for the event emitter?
03:13:45  <jjjjohnnny>pass the emitter instead of a callback
03:14:07  <jjjjohnnny>or return an emitter instead
03:14:49  <jjjjohnnny>supply side eventing does not seem so ridiculous
03:16:07  <defunctzombie>wut
03:16:29  <defunctzombie>Raynos: ask domtar, iirc he was playing around with that stuff
03:16:43  <Raynos>dominictarr: OH HI
03:17:05  <Raynos>jjjjohnnny: wut?
03:18:25  <jjjjohnnny>starting in on a ui project
03:18:35  <defunctzombie>good luck
03:18:43  <jjjjohnnny>yeah thx
03:18:51  <jjjjohnnny>componentry
03:19:14  <defunctzombie>what you need to remember is:
03:19:21  <defunctzombie>1) just use npm and basic modules
03:19:27  <defunctzombie>2) don't overengineer it :p
03:19:52  <jjjjohnnny>3) make it for yourself primarily
03:20:32  <defunctzombie>yes!
03:22:37  <jjjjohnnny>so but in componentry, what with css, it seems that the top level container div should be supplied to the component constructor
03:25:40  <jjjjohnnny>its mine mine mine
03:26:19  <st_luke>imo dont make using css more complicated than it needs to be
03:29:44  <st_luke>that goat commercial
03:30:10  <jjjjohnnny>i will make the css complicated if I can use it to build a smooth js interface
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03:30:33  <jjjjohnnny>uncomplicated css turns into a disorganized mess, con migo
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03:34:45  <defunctzombie>jjjjohnnny: check out npm-css module for css stuff with components
03:34:57  <defunctzombie>I think that is as simple as it gets really
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04:12:26  <Raynos>https://github.com/Colingo/track-event
04:12:33  <Raynos>I build an analytics aggregating thing
04:12:37  <jjjjohnnny>what do you know about the speed of custom dom event creation and dispatch?
04:12:44  <Raynos>because including analytics snippets is </3 and require is awesome
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04:14:33  <jjjjohnnny>whats the socket server du jour
04:18:31  <defunctzombie>Raynos: have you seen analytics.js?
04:18:42  <defunctzombie>or segment io iirc?
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04:30:11  <Raynos>defunctzombie: the problem with analytics js / segment io is that they make the mistake of shoe horning everything into one thing
04:30:23  <defunctzombie>I agree
04:30:40  <defunctzombie>I wasn't really suggesting it, just curious if you had seen it and what you thought of it :)
04:42:35  <substack>getting to the bottom of the git bug in testling-ci
04:42:40  <substack>it's in pushover
04:42:52  <substack>for some reason I'm just getting "0000" as the request body
04:42:56  <substack>whatever that even means
04:43:26  <Raynos>defunctzombie: https://github.com/Colingo/track-event#motivation
04:56:10  <dominictarr>Im looking for ways to bind arrays together (meaning: mutate one array, produce a corrisponding change in the other array)
04:56:29  <dominictarr>i.e. an json array, and a <OL> tag
04:57:13  <dominictarr>I'm thinking the answer is splice
04:57:35  <dominictarr>because all array operations can be described as a splice
04:58:19  <substack>are the updates one way or bidirectional?
05:00:38  <dominictarr>I want it to be possible to create 2 way bindings
05:00:53  <dominictarr>so, you could drag and drop UI to resort an array
05:02:25  <dominictarr>I'm thinking, and ArrayLike is anything that has a splice method.
05:02:38  <dominictarr>that is enough to bind it to another array
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05:03:09  <dominictarr>and then it needs to emit a 'splice' event, or something, and then it can be bound to
05:03:55  <dominictarr>otherwise, you could use adiff to figure out what the difference is
05:04:00  <dools>BABY I WAS BOUND, TO SPLIIIIICE
05:04:00  <LOUDBOT>IRONY IS A FIRETRUCK ON FIRE!
05:04:23  <dominictarr>LOUDBOT: twitlast
05:04:23  <LOUDBOT>http://twitter.com/LOUDBOT/status/298658304161349632 (simcop2387/##turtles)
05:04:53  <dominictarr>(incidentally, adiff returns a diff as an array of splices!)
05:05:06  <dominictarr>relocating to recharge
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05:20:00  <Raynos>dominictarr: I used https://github.com/Colingo/widget-list for one-way stuff
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05:28:30  <Raynos>defunctzombie: https://github.com/shtylman/node-process/pull/1#issuecomment-13115250
05:28:36  <Raynos>second time `npm i process` fails for me.
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05:34:01  <defunctzombie>Raynos: what happened to your browserify patch?
05:34:27  <defunctzombie>what do you mean npm i process fails for you? what does that patch have to do with npm installing the module?
05:36:05  <defunctzombie>Raynos: the browser field is was specifically made to address the problem in a tool independent manner :)
05:45:11  <Raynos>defunctzombie: https://github.com/substack/node-browserify/pull/279
05:45:15  <Raynos>substack hasn't landed it yet
05:45:18  <Raynos>which means in the meanwhile
05:45:22  <Raynos>you have to land the browserify field
05:45:32  <defunctzombie>Raynos: why does it mean that?
05:45:45  <defunctzombie>I use a tool which works with that field :p
05:45:54  <Raynos>because your the small guy and browserify is the big guy
05:45:56  <Raynos>therefore you lose
05:46:03  <defunctzombie>haha
05:46:24  <defunctzombie>fork it and use that until browserify is fixed
05:46:45  <Raynos>i do
05:46:56  <defunctzombie>browserify is a tool specific field, doesn't really interest me
05:46:56  <Raynos>im just annoyed i have to do npm i Raynos/node-process#patch-1
05:47:00  <defunctzombie>haha
05:47:03  <Raynos>instead of npm i process
05:47:36  <defunctzombie>#programmerproblems
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05:48:54  <substack>Raynos: I've just been sitting on that since I want it to do the file mapping too
05:50:56  <defunctzombie>I just watched the pilot episode of elementary... I dunno. wasn't that impressed /random
05:57:38  <Raynos>substack: you can land it AND do the mapping later :D
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06:06:11  <mbalho>hij1nx: node chrome is sweet
06:06:29  <mbalho>hij1nx: i want to run it in my osx menu bar
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07:23:20  <substack>uggg bdd is the stupidest thing
07:23:56  <dominictarr>https://github.com/dominictarr/pause-stream/commit/4a6fe3dc2c11091b1efbfde912e0473719ed9cc0
07:27:10  <dominictarr>substack: module driven development
07:27:27  <substack>yes
07:27:44  <substack>tests are just programs
07:28:07  <substack>they are not special
07:30:45  <dominictarr>I would argue, that they should even be _separate_ modules
07:31:26  <substack>too much ceremony to evolve the api
07:32:48  <substack>mbalho: have you written tests for phonegap apps?
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07:59:57  <Raynos>Dominictarr why seperate modules
08:00:09  <Raynos>Sounds like a maintenance nightmare
08:00:29  <Raynos>How would I tdd?
08:17:14  <dominictarr>Raynos: because they should be orthagonal
08:17:31  <dominictarr>the test program defines what the program should do
08:17:44  <dominictarr>and the program is just an implementation
08:18:01  <Raynos>But almost always I want to edit both at once
08:18:06  <dominictarr>+ then you can use the tests to check multiple versions of a program
08:18:10  <Raynos>They are hard coupled
08:18:27  <dominictarr>not if you only test the external api
08:18:57  <Raynos>Further more I need tests to be as easy to write as possible otherwise I wont write them
08:19:06  <dominictarr>then they arn't any more coupled than any other dependant module
08:19:41  <Raynos>I mean if I change the test I have to change the implementation
08:20:02  <dominictarr>if tests where a separte module you could do things like check whether all forks pass the official tests
08:20:21  <Raynos>And if I change the implementation I have to run the tests
08:21:14  <Raynos>Currently I optimize my testing and exampling infrastructure for instant feedback.
08:21:25  <dominictarr>sure
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10:01:39  <Raynos>Give me some good commonJS propaganda
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10:07:35  <substack>Raynos: 20k+
10:09:10  <Raynos>https://github.com/wilmoore/frontend-packagers/pull/6/files
10:09:15  <Raynos>There
10:09:22  <Raynos>fuck those front end garden guys
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10:44:56  <substack>Raynos: your tables are broken https://github.com/Raynos/frontend-packagers/blob/c044487ca0ead406f80276a4a04257c92b060ff7/readme.md
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11:32:29  <substack>tentative module name: lousy
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13:58:36  <juliangruber>yay guys, I've made it to my first conference: http://www.uxmunich.com/speakers/julian-gruber-sven-read
13:58:51  <fotoverite>Congrts
13:58:59  <juliangruber>for UX :D
13:59:01  <juliangruber>thanks
13:59:03  <fotoverite>practice a lot
13:59:04  <fotoverite>like a lot a lot
13:59:09  <fotoverite>like every night for the next month
13:59:40  <ehd>and have a drink with oliver, he's cool
13:59:51  <juliangruber>I will, definitely :)
14:00:47  <juliangruber>and konstantinhaase is there too :)
14:00:50  <ehd>fotoverite: your talk at reject.js was awesome :D did you practice a lot before that?
14:00:58  <fotoverite>Not nearly enough
14:01:07  <fotoverite>Oh god no no it wash;'t I was so not happy with it.
14:01:13  <juliangruber>:D
14:01:14  <fotoverite>I mean I agree 100% with what I said
14:01:24  <fotoverite>just could have been way less nervous
14:01:32  <fotoverite>cascadia.js went a lot better
14:01:38  <juliangruber>I know that feel
14:01:38  <fotoverite>plus <3 keynote
14:02:02  <ehd>that's why they should provide cocaine in a sort of speaker lounge
14:02:16  <juliangruber>I'm only relaxed when I feel like I can teach people a lot of stuff, felt that way in university. but that doesn't apply here anymore
14:02:19  <ehd></wrong-conference>
14:02:51  <fotoverite>end that's a terrible idea
14:02:54  <fotoverite>at least MDMA
14:03:07  <fotoverite>Or acid cocaine doesn't have any benifits
14:03:17  <juliangruber>mdma would be sweet
14:03:19  <ehd><i>speaker comes crushing through wall, eats microphone, talk ends</i>
14:03:50  <juliangruber>and it was the best appearance ever
14:23:59  <fotoverite>That's it rails is the new poster child for vulnerbilities
14:24:00  <fotoverite>http://eval.in/8284
14:24:06  <fotoverite>this isn't even patched yet
14:25:32  <ehd>i mean... the task must have been writing a CSV parser that is able to execute code
14:25:57  <fotoverite>yes because that's what you want
14:26:11  <fotoverite>*sideye
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15:52:36  <pkrumins>yo
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20:58:44  <mbalho>substack: phonegap apps are just js running in a browser, nothin special really
20:59:07  <mbalho>substack: oh except its nicer cause you can bypass the single origin policy
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21:30:32  <pkrumins>"We have completed the installation of your Mac mini called osx1."
21:30:41  <pkrumins>mobile browsers, and osx browsers are coming to browserling and testling!
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21:32:46  <st_luke>pkrumins: wow!
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21:37:47  <mbalho>pkrumins: wow!
21:38:09  <pkrumins>so excited
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21:50:27  <defunctzombie>pkrumins: \o/
21:50:42  <pkrumins>defunctzombie: and i'll get that https cert soon too, sorry for the delay
21:50:45  <defunctzombie>:)
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22:14:59  <substack>mbalho: what about the special apis for accelerometers and such?
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22:26:54  <CoverSlide>pkrumins: BlackBerry?
22:30:58  <mbalho>substack: those are still testable with JS, everything gets a JS API
22:31:19  <mbalho>substack: the the ideal pattern is for things that are implemented with plugins to polyfill html5 apis anyway
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22:37:57  <pkrumins>CoverSlide: just ios
22:38:13  <CoverSlide>wut about android?
22:38:19  <CoverSlide>roadmap?
22:39:52  <pkrumins>right now just ios
22:40:19  <pkrumins>android at some time later
22:40:29  <pkrumins>if anyone needs blackberry and would pay for it, then blackberry too
22:41:14  <substack>and windows mobile if we can get clients lined up for it
22:41:34  <pkrumins>yep!
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23:02:36  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
23:02:36  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) [email protected] successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
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23:02:47  <substack>yay
23:02:57  <substack>haven't been seeing enough of those lately
23:03:22  <substack>should get lots more when we get ios in browserling
23:04:18  <pkrumins>definitely
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