00:00:00
| * ircretary | quit (Remote host closed the connection) |
00:00:12
| <mbalho> | oh wait, nvm, got confused with all the r usernames |
00:00:43
| <rvagg> | this would be good, bit pricey tho: http://www.logitech.com/en-au/product/illuminated-keyboard-for-mac-ipad-iphone |
00:00:58
| <mbalho> | rvagg: updated my notes gist with more stuff |
00:01:19
| <rvagg> | thursday morning's are supposed to be the most productive part of my week... you've ruined me now mbalho! |
00:01:47
| <mbalho> | basically all of my work lately has the result of killing the productivity of others |
00:02:02
| <rvagg> | well, at least you're honing a skill |
00:02:17
| <mbalho> | hehe |
00:02:18
| <ralphtheninja> | rvagg: that keyboard looks sweet |
00:02:45
| <mbalho> | ok goin offline, cya |
00:06:18
| <Raynos> | Dominictarr: its better to use and teach standards instead of propietory extensionw |
00:08:39
| <rvagg> | kindle's quick to download and install firmware upgrades... downgraded to 5.3.1 and next reboot gets me 5.3.3... better enable airplane mode |
00:08:48
| <dominictarr> | yeah, so say that |
00:09:24
| <dominictarr> | Raynos: http://catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading/ar01s06.html |
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00:33:21
| <substack> | defunctzombie_zz, Raynos: https://github.com/substack/module-deps#transforms |
00:36:10
| <Raynos> | dominictarr: I don't know how I fall into habit of telling people what to do instead of explaining it. Maybe stackoverflow. |
00:36:41
| <dominictarr> | stackoverflow is totally different to github |
00:37:23
| <Raynos> | agreed. |
00:38:48
| <dominictarr> | you shouldn't try to make people like you, but you do need to show people respect. |
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00:56:58
| <dominictarr> | LOUDBOT COME OUT OF YOUR HOLE |
00:56:58
| <LOUDBOT> | OH SHIT THE LOUDNESS HAS BEGUN |
00:58:31
| <dominictarr> | LOUDBOT: sshhh |
00:58:32
| <LOUDBOT> | dominictarr: AVERAGE EMCEES IS LIKE A TEEVEE BLOOPER. MF DOOM HE LIKE D.B. COOPER |
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01:09:02
| <mbalho> | lol |
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01:32:34
| <spion> | yield is not hacky. other languages have had coroutines for ages now and they are fine. |
01:36:36
| <dominictarr> | coroutines are just like streams too! |
01:37:15
| <dominictarr> | number of cores is scaling out fast, need things like this to make use of them |
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01:37:53
| <substack> | they seem to work ok in lua which is very similar to js |
01:38:09
| <substack> | although I rather like callbacks |
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01:40:42
| <spion> | yield feels to me. yield db.query.bind(db, query, params); // hey computer. go do this and tell me when its done so I can continue. |
01:40:46
| <spion> | feels great* |
01:42:44
| <spion> | generator caller then goes like, okay, I call this with a callback, then in the callback if there is an error, I throw it to the generator, otherwise, i tell it to resume with the resulting value. |
01:42:55
| <spion> | maps perfectly well. except for that extra .bind |
01:45:34
| <substack> | for db queries and back-and-forth stateful apis that makes sense |
01:45:57
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01:46:58
| <dominictarr> | yeah, only for things that are sequential, which isn't the common case, we learn in node |
01:47:33
| <dominictarr> | but it seems like that in other langs because that is easy, but doing anything else is really hard... |
01:47:57
| <spion> | you could yield arrays of things, and they would execute in parallel |
01:48:15
| <spion> | or arrays wrapped in a queue object with {concurrency :N} |
01:48:29
| <dominictarr> | it's not always that simple |
01:48:43
| <dominictarr> | like, what if one thing errors? do you stop right then? |
01:48:52
| <dominictarr> | do you collect the errors? |
01:49:06
| <dominictarr> | this can be done easily in userland code |
01:51:52
| <spion> | well - i guess that would depend on the particular case. but you control both the generator and the generator caller (or task handler), so that can be decided inside the task handler depending on the yielded object received. |
01:52:05
| <spion> | I think a good task library could solve that. |
01:53:46
| <spion> | but yeah I wouldn't use yield for everything. |
01:58:01
| <dominictarr> | no, if there is an actual performance benefit to having it, that is great though... |
01:58:52
| <spion> | i think the benefit would be mostly in that boring sequential "do this then do that if this is blah otherwise do something else" code. |
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02:04:22
| <spion> | so I am not sure that there will bring any performance benefit - probably it will just bring more expressiveness to JS. a different way to do (some) async stuff. |
02:05:20
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02:05:30
| <spion> | a less async way :) |
02:06:13
| <spion> | i am probably confusing the terms there. |
02:07:05
| <spion> | yield would be sync (in the sense that the generator waits to be called again) but non-blocking (in the sense that it won't block the event loop) |
02:07:19
| <spion> | think I got it right |
02:07:33
| <Raynos> | spion try something like reducers |
02:22:52
| <spion> | hey, thanks, wish i found that before I wrote my async bfs function :) |
02:25:08
| <spion> | its a bit hard to wrap my head around it though |
02:25:20
| <spion> | maybe I should read up on clojure reducers |
02:26:01
| <spion> | from what I read, looks very similar to point free programming - but for collections of stuff |
02:56:13
| * defunctzombie_zz | changed nick to defunctzombie |
02:57:37
| <defunctzombie> | spion: with the right api you don't need the yield keyword |
02:57:48
| <defunctzombie> | it all just happens behind the scenes and does the right thing :) |
02:57:51
| <spion> | you mean, with something like promised() |
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02:58:25
| <spion> | make all the api deal with promises and only at the end do a .then |
02:59:32
| <spion> | well, that fails because if, for and operators are not functions. |
03:00:33
| <spion> | however, they can be replaced with functions. |
03:00:53
| <spion> | yeah I suppose you could do that and throw away most of the language. |
03:02:20
| <defunctzombie> | spion: no |
03:02:30
| <defunctzombie> | I mean with something like lua coroutines |
03:02:38
| <spion> | oh. |
03:02:39
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03:02:54
| <spion> | ah. |
03:02:55
| <spion> | :) |
03:02:56
| <defunctzombie> | if the db library uses a network api that is made to yield on the backend properly |
03:03:03
| <defunctzombie> | you can write code that looks blocking, but isn't |
03:03:10
| <defunctzombie> | just depends on your goals |
03:03:23
| <defunctzombie> | substack: did you get my comments on browser-resolve? |
03:04:27
| <spion> | i am okay with a mandatory yield. its good to have a visual cue about the point where you leave the generator (and things may change under your feet in the meantime) |
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03:18:48
| <defunctzombie> | the user should not have to worry about it |
03:18:54
| <defunctzombie> | also, what happens if you forget to yield |
03:19:02
| <defunctzombie> | I think underlying libs should do it |
03:21:25
| <substack> | defunctzombie: comments on insert-module-global? |
03:21:33
| <defunctzombie> | nope |
03:21:41
| <substack> | link? |
03:21:43
| <defunctzombie> | I am thinking of changing the browser-resolve api a bit |
03:21:49
| <defunctzombie> | no link, they were irc comments iirc |
03:21:59
| <defunctzombie> | instead of browser-resolve shipping with core-shims |
03:22:12
| <defunctzombie> | it will instead take an object of shim_name -> filepath mappings |
03:22:17
| <substack> | yes I saw that |
03:22:33
| <substack> | however you want to do it |
03:22:40
| <defunctzombie> | cool, I will bump version when I do that to make it clear |
03:22:44
| <substack> | I have no strong opinions about that |
03:22:48
| <defunctzombie> | kk |
03:23:07
| <defunctzombie> | there is some work going into the node-libs-browser module with lots of tests on testling |
03:23:15
| <defunctzombie> | to get a better comfort level of these shims |
03:23:36
| <substack> | I seem to have found and fixed the bug where sometimes there would be some undefined id |
03:23:44
| <defunctzombie> | substack: fuck, really? nice |
03:23:47
| <substack> | the dependency mapper reduce wasn't checking self._expose |
03:23:56
| <defunctzombie> | have you pushed out the change? |
03:24:04
| <substack> | just published 2.2.6 |
03:24:05
| <defunctzombie> | I have a failing thing I can try it on |
03:24:06
| <substack> | just now |
03:24:07
| <defunctzombie> | cool |
03:24:09
| <defunctzombie> | nice |
03:24:12
| <substack> | tests pass on travis |
03:24:17
| <defunctzombie> | also, plans to get v2 on testling? |
03:24:17
| <substack> | it's using the new module-deps code |
03:24:20
| <substack> | with the transform stuff |
03:24:21
| <defunctzombie> | cool |
03:24:24
| <defunctzombie> | awesome! |
03:24:26
| <substack> | defunctzombie: after transforms |
03:24:44
| <defunctzombie> | if you do find time, please revisit the global detection slowness |
03:24:53
| <defunctzombie> | it is a major pain point for enchilada with jquery |
03:24:54
| <substack> | and I want testling to look at your package.json to see what browserify version it should use |
03:24:59
| <defunctzombie> | over 4 seconds to respond |
03:25:12
| <substack> | yes it's a thing I can fix in lexical-scope |
03:26:19
| <substack> | defunctzombie: for now you can b.bundle({ insertGlobals: true }) |
03:26:22
| <substack> | to make it fast |
03:26:25
| <substack> | that's what --fast does |
03:26:52
| <defunctzombie> | gotcha |
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03:27:04
| <defunctzombie> | but that will also insert process? |
03:27:09
| <substack> | yes |
03:27:28
| <defunctzombie> | I kinda feel like global can be an always insert :/ |
03:27:40
| <defunctzombie> | I don't care about process as much |
03:27:42
| <substack> | unacceptable for winning over projects like d3 |
03:27:51
| <defunctzombie> | and would gladly opt out of detecting that |
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03:28:22
| <defunctzombie> | substack: really? it adds 1 character in the minified version |
03:28:38
| <defunctzombie> | two I guess, the comma haha |
03:29:10
| <substack> | I'll just make lexical-scope fast |
03:29:15
| <defunctzombie> | cool |
03:29:23
| <defunctzombie> | for now I will skip the insert globals in enchilada |
03:29:33
| <defunctzombie> | substack: it should be as fast as teh regex ;) |
03:29:41
| <defunctzombie> | for that jquery test |
03:29:44
| <substack> | regex isn't correct |
03:29:47
| <substack> | correct > fast |
03:30:21
| <substack> | cat *.js > bundle.js is fastest of all! |
03:31:27
| <defunctzombie> | haha |
03:31:51
| <defunctzombie> | does regex fail in any case where lexical scope succeeds? |
03:32:12
| <substack> | // process the file |
03:32:17
| <defunctzombie> | no, fail |
03:32:25
| <defunctzombie> | as in fails to add process if it should be |
03:32:29
| <substack> | nope |
03:32:31
| <defunctzombie> | false positive is not a fail |
03:32:36
| <defunctzombie> | also, it won't detect that |
03:32:40
| <defunctzombie> | you have to do process. |
03:32:51
| <substack> | regex only has false positives |
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03:33:28
| <defunctzombie> | meh |
03:37:20
| <dominictarr> | comments are pretty easy to filter out with regexp |
03:38:35
| <substack> | comments, strings |
03:38:46
| <substack> | regex is strictly not powerful enough |
03:39:16
| <substack> | regex is too low on the hierarchy of languages to parse source code |
03:40:00
| <substack> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/442325/chomsky-hierarchy-and-ll-parsers |
03:40:17
| <dominictarr> | it could handle comments, since they have no syntax anyway |
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03:40:23
| <dominictarr> | they are just ignored |
03:40:37
| <substack> | LL grammars like js are context-sensitive |
03:41:09
| <dominictarr> | oh, but then you could have "/* not a comment!*/" |
03:41:35
| <substack> | hahaha http://www.conservapedia.com/Chomsky_hierarchy |
03:41:40
| <dominictarr> | and "// not comment"; process[regularJS] |
03:41:42
| <substack> | dominictarr: yep, among other edge-cases |
03:42:01
| <substack> | why is there a conservapedia entry for chomsky hierarchies |
03:42:15
| <defunctzombie> | I guess my point was that it was good enough |
03:42:31
| <defunctzombie> | and that the current speed loss is worse than the false positive you *may* get |
03:42:57
| <substack> | --fast |
03:43:13
| <defunctzombie> | substack: to be really good, the global wrapper should just be once around the whole bundle |
03:43:21
| <defunctzombie> | and with process actually if needed |
03:43:50
| <defunctzombie> | right now if you have global in every file you will get function(global) { ... file ... } for all the files hahaha |
03:44:08
| <dominictarr> | defunctzombie: what if you do a fast check with regexp, and then parse the regexp test returned positive? |
03:44:28
| <defunctzombie> | fascinating |
03:44:33
| <defunctzombie> | substack: ^ |
03:44:45
| <dominictarr> | improving the general case |
03:45:03
| <defunctzombie> | (which is still unrelated to the whole adding global for every file thing) |
03:45:05
| <substack> | dominictarr: that is what insert-module-global already does |
03:45:18
| <dominictarr> | oh, okay, great |
03:45:26
| <substack> | dominictarr: https://github.com/substack/insert-module-globals/blob/master/index.js#L32-L37 |
03:45:39
| <substack> | the problem is that massive js blobs like jquery use the word "process" and "global" |
03:45:55
| <defunctzombie> | oh.. that is why I narroed to global. |
03:46:38
| <dominictarr> | what if you memoized by the hash of the code |
03:46:47
| <defunctzombie> | I guess that won't catch the case of global then .foo() on the next line.. but you can make a regex for that actually too |
03:47:15
| <dominictarr> | if the hash is the same, and you already know whether that hash has globals, then you don't need to parse it |
03:47:30
| <substack> | dominictarr: early versions of detective that were slow did that |
03:47:32
| <dominictarr> | and jquery and d3 don't change often |
03:47:36
| <substack> | but now it's fast so it doesn't matter |
03:47:36
| <defunctzombie> | well, this isn't about that |
03:47:54
| <defunctzombie> | this is about the initial bundle time and dynamic rebundling :/ |
03:48:05
| <defunctzombie> | it isn't fast enough! more power!!! |
03:55:40
| <defunctzombie> | substack: ran latest browserify on a failing test case I had |
03:55:43
| <defunctzombie> | substack: works |
03:55:45
| <defunctzombie> | nice job |
03:58:23
| <substack> | need to get browserify incredibly solid |
03:58:42
| <substack> | then we get everybody to put their browser modules on npm with a solid testling-ci test suite |
03:58:51
| <substack> | then everybody wins! yay modularity |
03:58:58
| <defunctzombie> | did you see the stuff Raynos asked about mock and the .cache and .resolve stuff? |
03:59:13
| <substack> | didn't follow that |
04:00:01
| <defunctzombie> | after thinking about it some more, I don't think it will be as easy to do as I first thought |
04:00:09
| <defunctzombie> | basically, he has a module "mock" |
04:00:17
| <defunctzombie> | which uncaches a require |
04:00:37
| <defunctzombie> | then re-requires some module passing in a different require function that has some requires replaced |
04:00:40
| <substack> | what about using the fallback mechanism? |
04:01:07
| <substack> | or just the { expose: 'fs' } trick |
04:01:11
| <defunctzombie> | substack: would need a way to uncache a module tho I think |
04:01:18
| <substack> | why's that? |
04:01:26
| <defunctzombie> | let me show you his code example |
04:01:28
| <defunctzombie> | it will be clearer |
04:01:42
| <defunctzombie> | https://github.com/Colingo/mock |
04:02:30
| <defunctzombie> | if you look at what it basically has to do which is to pass the same require string to the "mock" call |
04:02:47
| <defunctzombie> | pass in what we call the "cache" in browser-pack land |
04:02:55
| <defunctzombie> | and then the require function I guess |
04:02:56
| <substack> | what about just masking the require() function? |
04:03:26
| <defunctzombie> | yea, but how would that happen within the code? |
04:03:31
| <substack> | var oldRequire = require; require = function (x) { if (x === 'fs') { /* ... */ } else return oldRequire(x) } |
04:03:51
| <defunctzombie> | so he does this on a per require basis |
04:04:03
| <defunctzombie> | so this mock is only for ./fixtures/b |
04:04:04
| <dominictarr> | oh no, mocking is an anti pattern |
04:04:08
| <defunctzombie> | and the things it loads |
04:04:11
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04:04:25
| <dominictarr> | use dependency injection if you want to mock stuff |
04:04:32
| <dominictarr> | because you should feel the pain |
04:04:40
| <defunctzombie> | dominictarr: and how would you dependency inject in this case? |
04:04:49
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04:05:02
| <dominictarr> | module.exports = function (dbConnection) { return myModule } |
04:05:03
| <defunctzombie> | so lets say he has something that calls some other functions in modules which do ajax stuff or whatnot |
04:05:09
| <defunctzombie> | hm |
04:05:19
| <dominictarr> | pass the dep you want to mock |
04:05:22
| <defunctzombie> | this is worse imho as it makes your apis very strange |
04:05:35
| <defunctzombie> | mock is a way to do dependency injection |
04:05:37
| <dominictarr> | it is bad, because mocking is bad |
04:05:53
| <defunctzombie> | you are injecting what those dependencies will become |
04:06:01
| <defunctzombie> | dominictarr: pretend it is called "require_replace" |
04:06:12
| <dominictarr> | building it into the module system puts uglyness where is doesn't belong |
04:06:22
| <isaacs> | whoa whoa whoa... |
04:06:25
| <isaacs> | you guys |
04:06:30
| <defunctzombie> | hahaha |
04:06:40
| <isaacs> | are you talking about a full on generalized mocking whatever? |
04:06:47
| <defunctzombie> | no |
04:06:52
| <defunctzombie> | I am talking about this little module |
04:07:03
| <isaacs> | ok |
04:07:04
| * isaacs | whew |
04:07:16
| * defunctzombie | crisis averted |
04:07:27
| <isaacs> | haha |
04:07:39
| <dominictarr> | but the little module does mocking, right? |
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04:08:20
| <defunctzombie> | dominictarr: this is the same as dependency injection |
04:08:20
| <dominictarr> | brb eats |
04:08:27
| <defunctzombie> | you are just injecting at the require level |
04:10:49
| <dominictarr> | doesn't bfy already have that feature, because it does something like that to inject browserify-* modules? |
04:11:58
| <defunctzombie> | dominictarr: that is at the bundling level, this is within the code itself (for testing as I have been told) |
04:13:06
| <defunctzombie> | since testling doesn't have a good way to test ajax requests really, this stuff becomes more important for libs that need it I think |
04:13:28
| <defunctzombie> | in any case, I thought it was a neat trick that works on node and bfy v1 but not v2 |
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04:32:38
| <isaacs> | mocking IS the same as dependency injection |
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04:40:45
| <defunctzombie> | isaacs: yes |
04:41:08
| <dools> | dominictarr: haha not bad |
04:41:30
| <dools> | dominictarr: incidentally that was me replying to something you said about 8 days ago (was paged up) |
04:41:30
| <dominictarr> | dools: huh? |
04:41:37
| <dools> | (and didn't realise it) |
04:41:39
| <dominictarr> | ha |
04:41:47
| <dools> | IT'S SEMANTIC VERSIONING NOT SENTIMENTAL VERSIONING |
04:41:48
| <LOUDBOT> | BECAUSE MOFINO SAYS NOTHING MATTERS AND HAS NO EFFECT |
04:42:12
| <defunctzombie> | wow |
04:57:28
| <Raynos> | dominictarr: mocking is an anti pattern but its useful for unit tests |
04:59:03
| <Raynos> | substack: this is useful for tests and only tests. I don't care if the mock API is dirty / ugly / a disaster. It just needs to work somehow |
04:59:38
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05:03:13
| <defunctzombie> | Raynos: did that browser /a -> browser/a thing work as expected for you? |
05:03:23
| <Raynos> | dont know |
05:03:28
| <Raynos> | not using browserify2.0 in prod |
05:03:43
| <Raynos> | building an `EventLogHttpServer` atm |
05:03:44
| <defunctzombie> | ah ok |
05:03:53
| <Raynos> | I should put some java beans in that function name |
05:06:41
| <defunctzombie> | yes |
05:17:21
| * defunctzombie | changed nick to defunctzombie_zz |
05:26:08
| <mbalho> | rvagg: do you have any thoughts on if its possible to run node on kindle? |
05:26:34
| <rvagg> | mbalho: I just got kterm going actually; still getting to the node bit |
05:26:37
| <rvagg> | BUT WHY NOT? |
05:26:37
| <LOUDBOT> | WHAT THE FUCK *IS* THAT. |
05:26:43
| <rvagg> | NODE! |
05:26:59
| <mbalho> | rvagg: ah cool |
05:27:06
| <rvagg> | mbalho: listening to your lxjs talk in the background as it so happens |
05:27:32
| <mbalho> | rvagg: its probably uninteresting to you since you 'get it' already :P |
05:27:58
| <mbalho> | rvagg: also forgot if i mentioned it earlier but i figured out how to get kterm to rotate into landscape but it breaks the on screen keyboard |
05:28:18
| <substack> | Raynos: fs.readFileSync() asset loading plugin coming soon |
05:28:26
| <substack> | a good reason to upgrade |
05:28:37
| <rvagg> | mbalho: yeah, I have your kterm github issue open for that |
05:28:51
| <rvagg> | tho I haven't downloaded that binary yet |
05:29:11
| <mbalho> | rvagg: i was thinking that if http://www.evilpaul.org/wp/?p=504 ran we could write our own |
05:29:32
| <mbalho> | rvagg: but i dont know if kindle browser does canvas or not |
05:29:53
| <rvagg> | mm, I have no idea about the browser on there, I try not to touch it |
05:30:41
| <mbalho> | rvagg: apparently the new ebook format they use is just html5 |
05:31:08
| <rvagg> | with shiny drm |
05:31:12
| <mbalho> | hah |
05:40:34
| <mbalho> | rvagg: http://i.imgur.com/Jxvq8iN.png is http://evilpaul.org/content/textmode/example2/ |
05:40:48
| <mbalho> | :( |
05:41:07
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05:41:20
| <rvagg> | mm, that's not happy |
05:41:27
| <rvagg> | closeish |
05:46:08
| <mbalho> | rvagg: how awesome would it be to run node + leveldb on the kindle and use the browser to open localhost:8080 and you code in browser and it syncs it up to the internets whenever you next go online |
05:46:56
| <rvagg> | too awesome to imagine.... |
05:52:28
| <rvagg> | mbalho: got a node to cross compile fine, but need to match the glibc version on kindle |
05:52:38
| <Raynos> | substack: Nice! I also need to hack on --debug back on it |
05:52:39
| <rvagg> | 2.12 |
05:52:41
| <Raynos> | maybe as a transform plugin |
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06:02:12
| <substack> | yep |
06:21:27
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06:31:25
| * Raynos | chrisdickinson: https://github.com/chrisdickinson/browservefy/pull/11 |
06:38:12
| * substack | topic: Unofficial browserling/testling mad science channel. For official help /join #browserling |
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06:43:30
| * substack | topic: Unofficial browserling/testling mad science channel. For official help /join #browserling |
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06:51:22
| <substack> | beep boop |
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06:58:53
| <substack> | https://github.com/substack/node-browserify#btransformtr |
07:00:56
| <substack> | defunctzombie_zz, Raynos: ^^^ |
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