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00:34:27  <mbalho>mikeal: so require('sleep-ref')('foo.db') returns a levelup instance decorated with a .changes function?
00:34:39  <mbalho>mikeal: and .getSequences
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00:35:41  <mbalho>mikeal: oh nevermind you implement your own api, is it supposed to be level compatible?
00:37:02  <mbalho>also meant level-sleep not level-ref
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00:38:10  <mikeal>oh, level-sleep is a full on database
00:38:31  <mikeal>also, sleep-mapreduce :)
00:39:39  <mbalho>mikeal: it would be nice if i could instantiate level-sleep with an existing sublevel
00:39:55  <mbalho>mikeal: cause i wanna put non sleep stuff in the same leveldb
00:40:53  <mbalho>mikeal: basically just https://github.com/maxogden/doorknob/blob/master/index.js#L12
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01:29:24  <mbalho>mikeal: ahh so you havent let hooked up the sleep-ref.httpHandler to level-sleep
01:29:27  <mbalho>yet*
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02:09:12  <mikeal>mbalho: it should be easy enough to add
02:10:04  <mikeal>the only issue is that i do rely on key/value encoding
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02:12:55  <mikeal>oh i see what you mean
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02:42:11  <jesusabdullah>substack: wait, newest version of browserify works with that line you gave me?? :D
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02:43:32  <substack>jesusabdullah: correct
02:43:49  <jesusabdullah>gangster
02:43:59  <jesusabdullah>today was a slow day for me despite being on laptop a long time
02:44:01  <substack>it was easier than figuring out how to do it the hacky way
02:44:05  <jesusabdullah>hahaha
02:44:06  <jesusabdullah>word
02:44:22  <jesusabdullah>trying to take care of my browserify-cdn backlog
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02:45:00  <substack>I am copying some of this api for use in leveldb? http://api.rubyonrails.org/classes/ActiveRecord/Associations/ClassMethods.html
02:45:07  <substack>Am I crazy yet [y/n]
02:45:11  <jesusabdullah>lol
02:45:13  <jesusabdullah>we'll see
02:45:29  <jesusabdullah>I was considering forking backbone.Model for server side use
02:45:34  <jesusabdullah>which might also mean I'm crazy
02:45:45  <substack>jesusabdullah: didn't airbnb do that already?
02:45:51  <jesusabdullah>idk did they?
02:45:58  <substack>http://github.com/airbnb/rendr
02:46:31  <jesusabdullah>part of it maybe
02:46:34  <jesusabdullah>I only want the models
02:46:53  <jesusabdullah>none of the other bs
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02:47:31  <jesusabdullah>still I should look at this
02:48:38  <jesusabdullah>oh also I want to heavily modify how persistence works in the models
02:48:56  <jesusabdullah>so that instead of expecting a $.ajax-like api it expects a mikeal/request-like api
02:49:07  <jesusabdullah>and uses require('events') instead of its own bs event implementation
02:49:17  <jesusabdullah>and while I'm at it rip out needing undascore
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02:50:37  <jesusabdullah>The meat/potates is actually only a few hundred lines :)
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03:24:32  <jesusabdullah>ugh I'm supposed to work on that crappy static site
03:24:35  <jesusabdullah>I dun' wanna :(
03:24:37  <jesusabdullah>but I needs to
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04:33:42  <mbalho>mikeal: it would be nice if i could make a sublevel and give it to a level-sleep and get .httpHandler and .netHandler on that
04:35:55  <mikeal>you want a sleep feed for any arbitrary amount of data?
04:36:16  <mikeal>or you just want to have level-sleep write on top of a sublevel?
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04:51:59  <mbalho>mikeal: i just want an easy way to expose a db as a sleep endpoint, kind of like what multilevel does
04:52:14  <mbalho>mikeal: like with multilevel you just create a multilevel server and do a duplex pipe
04:52:20  <mikeal>yeah, that's a little tricky
04:52:31  <mikeal>sleep-ref has as much as one can do for that
04:52:43  <mikeal>you just write something that does getSequences
04:52:56  <mikeal>and it'll expose the endpoint
04:53:17  <mikeal>the problem is, if you want to keep a sequence index
04:53:37  <mikeal>you kinda have to write it :)
04:53:47  <mikeal>if you look at the code in sleep-ref tho
04:54:00  <mikeal>you'll see that there are a few examples
04:54:14  <mikeal>and level-sleep just has a getSequences method
04:54:33  <mikeal>and so does couchup
04:55:40  <mbalho>mikeal: so getSequences assumes sequences can fit in memory?
04:56:06  <mikeal>there are two apis, so you can implement whichever is easier
04:56:11  <mikeal>it can also return an event emitter
04:56:11  <mbalho>ah ok
04:56:23  <mbalho>oh i see, on entry
04:56:32  <mikeal>i think i'm going to re-write it to do a new-style stream in object mode
04:57:00  <mbalho>yea
04:57:41  <mbalho>mikeal: so right now i wanna let someone do dat init in a folder and then stuff like dat clone, dat pull or dat push or even dat serve
04:58:01  <mbalho>mikeal: dat clone will copy a sleep endpoint, dat pull will get it up to date
04:58:19  <mbalho>mikeal: havent finalized the API but im starting to play around with it
04:58:45  <mbalho>mikeal: so im thinking dat serve would just stand up a sleep endpoint for the current dat folder
04:59:12  <mbalho>mikeal: and im trying to figure out if i should use level-sleep or just sleep-ref
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04:59:18  <mbalho>mikeal: cause level-sleep is just the client atm
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05:06:15  <mikeal>just sleep-ref if you don't want a full database
05:06:21  <mikeal>or already have one
05:06:25  <mikeal>or are simulating one
05:06:41  <mikeal>with sleep-ref you should be able to make any data source to a sleep endoint
05:06:50  <mikeal>you may need to fake or just omit the seq
05:07:17  <mikeal>but you'll be able to expose endpoints and pull them with the reference client
05:07:23  <mikeal>and it can expose then over http or tcp
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05:25:51  <jesusabdullah>http://imgur.com/gallery/rRyRTGj must use this somewhere
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08:54:01  <dominictarr>dlmanning: don't pass a private key over the network
08:54:31  <dominictarr>it should live on the computer that generated it and never leave.
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09:00:16  <dominictarr>dlmanning: but luckily, keypair runs on the client.
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09:51:54  <jaz303>hello dominictarr
09:53:10  <dominictarr>jaz303: yo!
09:53:12  <dominictarr>whats up?
09:53:27  <jaz303>not a whole lot, just working in a server cupboard today
09:53:54  <dominictarr>nice - I just used tcpdump for the first time yesterday!
09:56:16  <jaz303>i'm cloning one mac mini onto a lot of other mac minis
09:57:40  <jaz303>i'm curious about your ideas for template engines
09:57:49  <dominictarr>well,
09:58:24  <dominictarr>so, normally I don't use them, or do any front end work - that is where I'm coming from
09:58:35  <dominictarr>but occasionally I get forced to do it.
09:58:52  <dominictarr>and I'd rather get it done and get out asap
09:59:07  <dominictarr>stuff like http://flat-ui.com/
09:59:37  <dominictarr>seems to promise that making a good looking interface simple and easy
10:00:03  <dominictarr>but I've found it pretty easy to create html that doesn't work with it
10:00:21  <dominictarr>or well, I do something wrong and elements don't allign, etc
10:07:53  <jaz303>are you thinking of a sort of component-aware declarative idea?
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10:16:46  <dominictarr>jaz303: yeah, something that is hardcoded to the toolkit
10:17:20  <dominictarr>so I just create navbar(menu(…, menu(…,…,…)))
10:17:23  <dominictarr>stuff like that
10:17:38  <dominictarr>so that I can only do stuff that works
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10:20:36  <jaz303>interesting
10:23:44  <dominictarr>jaz303: but that is the simple end of the scale
10:24:15  <jaz303>what's hiding at the other end?
10:24:20  <dominictarr>I earnestly believe that there could be something much better than html/css, yet retaining the strengths
10:24:46  <jaz303>without a doubt
10:24:57  <dominictarr>html and css arn't abstractions
10:25:04  <dominictarr>they leak into each other
10:25:19  <dominictarr>sometimes you need to add html to just to be cssed
10:25:32  <dominictarr>there isn't a clean separation of style and structure
10:25:45  <jaz303>yes
10:26:05  <dominictarr>I don't know what the solution is, but I have some hunches
10:26:07  <jaz303>the cappuccino guys worked around that by doing everything with canvas tags
10:26:19  <dominictarr>cappuccino?
10:26:34  <jaz303>http://www.cappuccino-project.org/
10:26:43  <jaz303>did you ever see 280slides ?
10:26:53  <jaz303>i don't think it's online anymore
10:27:30  <dominictarr>oh yeah, I remember that from when I was getting started in node
10:29:05  <dominictarr>for example, one big problem is that the abstractions in the dom arn't represented well
10:29:15  <dominictarr>like, everything is a box in 2d space
10:29:40  <dominictarr>but there is no "Point" model and no "Rectangle" or "Box"
10:30:14  <dominictarr>there is no way to get the position of X element relative to Y element
10:30:18  <dominictarr>simple geometry
10:30:22  <dominictarr>I started on this https://github.com/dominictarr/dom-vector
10:32:22  <dominictarr>which gives you Rect(element) and then you can control elements relative to each other etc
10:32:36  <dominictarr>It made implemented drag and drop stuff pretty simple.
10:33:19  <dominictarr>I feel like what we want (although I hate this term) is more like a "window manager"
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10:33:42  <jaz303>ooh
10:35:04  <jaz303>the one annoyance i've always felt when trying to abstract away the dom is the conflict between a document's natural flow and absolute positioning
10:35:25  <jaz303>fwiw i tend to make stuff that replicates a "traditional" desktop UI
10:36:11  <jaz303>so i have a bunch of absolutely sized regions, normally split panes, all absolutely positioned
10:37:04  <jaz303>but if you carry on with the absolute positioning inside of the larger panes, down to the level of individual controls, you start writing java-esque "layout managers", when HTML/CSS is capable of doing that stuff for you
10:37:29  <jaz303>but if you leave HTML/CSS to its own devices you lose the ability to control overlap nicely
10:37:58  <jaz303>it's messy, but: https://github.com/jaz303/hudkit.js
10:41:50  <dominictarr>yeah
10:42:06  <dominictarr>I mean, html was designed for text layout
10:42:10  <dominictarr>and it does that find
10:42:16  <dominictarr>fine
10:42:32  <dominictarr>like, the subset of html that is in markdown.
10:42:43  <jaz303>occasionally i dream of some sort of meta "layout VM"
10:42:57  <jaz303>that could handle a pile of primitive operations
10:43:10  <jaz303>and present certain OS-dependent features like pop-up menus
10:43:21  <jaz303>and input boxes
10:43:44  <jaz303>but that could be programmed to generating arbitrary layout engines
10:43:58  <jaz303>i've never been able to crystallise the idea though
10:45:02  <dominictarr>this term popped into my head the other day "constraint based layout"
10:45:22  <dominictarr>you say, X should be relative to the edge of Y
10:45:35  <dominictarr>or 50% between two things
10:45:42  <jaz303>yep
10:45:54  <dominictarr>one thing that you want, is for a series of elements to be spaced evenly
10:46:10  <dominictarr>which is arkward in html
10:46:25  <dominictarr>because the first and last thing need different margins
10:46:59  <dominictarr>I mean - just that it's taken us this long to get to twitter bootstrap
10:47:11  <dominictarr>and that it's twitter bootstrap
10:47:20  <dominictarr>it's emmensly disapointing
10:50:06  <dominictarr>I suspect the place to start is geometry
10:50:14  <dominictarr>since that is a "true abstraction"
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10:50:58  <dominictarr>and have a way of creating nested boxes, each responsible for their internal layout
10:51:18  <jaz303>yes
10:52:30  <dominictarr>and use the html autolayout for text
10:52:36  <dominictarr>but only text
10:53:00  <dominictarr>and use geometry to layout widgets
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11:00:25  <jaz303>going to have a play about with this later
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11:15:39  <dominictarr>jaz303: I'm getting really into the idea of objects that are nestable
11:15:57  <dominictarr>but the subcomponents have the same power as the parent
11:16:03  <dominictarr>like, directories
11:16:09  <dominictarr>lambdas
11:16:39  <dominictarr>I wrote a thing to give you nested databases github.com/dominictarr/level-sublevel
11:16:49  <dominictarr>https://github.com/dominictarr/level-sublevel
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11:16:58  <dominictarr>(for leveldb)
11:17:01  <dominictarr>works great.
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11:28:08  <jaz303>argh too many ideas
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13:25:39  <dominictarr>jaz303: you mentioned that you implemented a javascript runtime in javascript
13:25:48  <dominictarr>did you publish it?
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15:52:42  <dlmanning>dominictarr: Can I not pass the private key to the client over https?
15:53:25  <dominictarr>well, you could, but it ruins the security model of asymetric keys
15:53:36  <dlmanning>:/
15:53:48  <dominictarr>because the beauty of that model is that the user doesn't need to trust the server
15:54:05  <dominictarr>because they know no one has the key,
15:54:19  <dominictarr>so no one else can forge messages from them.
15:54:51  <dominictarr>and no one else can read encrypted messages that are sent to them with their public key.
15:55:18  <dlmanning>I get that, but in this particular instance I'm only actually worried about the server trusting the client
15:56:11  <dominictarr>sure, but if you are gonna send it, you might as well just use symmetric keys
15:56:25  <dlmanning>also, if I'm connected over https, doesn't that "guarantee" the identity of the server
15:56:31  <dlmanning>dominictarr: that makes sense
15:57:03  <dominictarr>so, substack has an interesting idea for this
15:57:24  <dominictarr>oh yeah you can have the server sign the code and stuff
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15:57:35  <dominictarr>with it's own private key
15:58:06  <dominictarr>substack's idea is to use what is generally considered a bug in html5 appcache
15:58:22  <dominictarr>make the cache cache the manifest
15:58:26  <dlmanning>There's not a particularly compelling reason to use asymmetric keys for this app I suppose
15:58:44  <dominictarr>dlmanning: works well for command line tools
15:58:50  <dominictarr>dlmanning: what are you building?
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15:59:14  <dlmanning>dominictarr: It's just a training site
15:59:19  <dlmanning>videos and such
16:00:00  <dominictarr>right. probably overkill
16:00:31  <dlmanning>I really just need to authorize and authenticate users
16:01:21  <dlmanning>Make sure API calls are coming from this user or that user
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16:02:52  <dlmanning>I'm already "overbuilding" it somewhat as an exercise, but I suppose it would be as easy to generate the keys on the client side as on the server
16:03:04  <isaacs>jesusabdullah: look into my `read-package-json` project
16:03:12  <isaacs>jesusabdullah: that's where you will find README file handling
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16:10:09  <jesusabdullah>isaacs: fantastic thanks
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17:55:34  <defunctzombie>creationix: what came of all your lua/luvit/brozula playing around?
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18:34:25  <juliangruber>is there a module that excepts a readable stream as input and when the stream ends outputs the last emitted chunk?
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18:54:33  <mbalho>mikeal: is the usecase for using bytewise to get the same complex array keys as couchdb? why not just use sublevels? binary keys dont work in thr browser + niether does bytewise at the moment
18:55:08  <mikeal>1) i do actually want complex keys
18:55:33  <mikeal>2) doing the slicing with bytewise allows me to place indexes closer to the datastores rather than storing indexes near other index made by the same module
18:56:25  <mikeal>if i have a datastore called "mikeal" and one called "mbalho" it is very advantagous for me to also place the indexes i have on top of that data store close to it
18:56:47  <mikeal>it is highly likely i'll be reading and writing from those around the same time
18:57:05  <mikeal>i'm still figuring out the best approach
18:57:16  <mikeal>because i *do* think there needs to be some kind of module namespacing in there
18:57:33  <mikeal>but i think it needs to sort after some kind of other user provided key
18:58:15  <mbalho>if you hvae a store called mikeal your indexes would be in mikeal\xfindexes or whatever
18:58:29  <mbalho>when using sublevel
18:59:36  <mikeal>to be honest, i'm starting to rethink the logic behind mutting everything in the same levelbd
18:59:46  <mikeal>so this is all up in the air
19:00:04  <mikeal>i know it is more efficient, but the last few days i've been working with a lot of data
19:00:16  <mikeal>and it is really nice to just blow away a directory
19:00:24  <mikeal>and regenerate the whole thing
19:00:35  <mikeal>so IDK
19:00:45  <mbalho>yea i wish deletes were faster
19:00:51  <mbalho>for a range
19:01:05  <mikeal>i'm also realizing that some things are strangely slow
19:01:16  <mikeal>doing a peekLast for a range that won't return a value, for instance
19:01:23  <mikeal>is unbelievably slow
19:01:31  <mikeal>once there is some data there it comes back really fast tho
19:01:47  <mikeal>the more i do the more i have to rethink things
19:01:51  <mbalho>peeklast just gets the last value in a range?
19:01:59  <mikeal>i've had a lot of talks with dominic tho, about sublevel and bytewise spliting
19:02:07  <mikeal>mbalho: yup
19:02:11  <mikeal>really simple
19:02:22  <mikeal>i have no idea why it can be so slow in certain cases
19:02:32  <mikeal>it is slower based on the absolute size of the leveldb
19:02:34  <mbalho>well if bytewise is measurably and provably faster then it would be nice if modules that used it could run in th ebrowser
19:02:44  <mikeal>but like, 100x slower when it returns nothing
19:02:58  <mbalho>mikeal: why doesnt it just make a backwards iterator and return the first thing?
19:03:01  <mikeal>why doesn't bytewise work in the browser?
19:03:09  <mikeal>he has code in there for it
19:03:11  <mbalho>indexeddb doesnt support binary keys
19:03:17  <mikeal>oh i see
19:03:22  <mbalho>only strings
19:03:29  <mikeal>indexeddb is *suppose* to support complex keys natively soon enough
19:03:52  <mikeal>no idea how we handle *not* encoding keys in some cases and not toehrs
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19:10:45  <mbalho>mikeal: so youre saying that if you do a reverse range on a keyspace that has no keys then it will be really slow?
19:11:05  <mikeal>on a leveldb that is large, yes, that is what i'm seeing
19:11:14  <mikeal>i have to do it to see if a store exists of a certain name
19:11:18  <mbalho>huh weird, i thought leveldb knew what keys existed
19:11:25  <mikeal>and if there isn't one it takes a really long time
19:11:35  <mikeal>well, it's a bloom filter
19:11:43  <mikeal>so it isn't 100% accurate
19:11:53  <mikeal>this case probably requires it to hit the disc pretty hard
19:12:01  <mikeal>man
19:12:09  <mbalho>is there a bloom filter in google leveldb now?
19:12:13  <mikeal>i just keep blowing out my rate limit on github
19:12:27  <mbalho>how?
19:12:30  <mikeal>yeah, i only know there is because the Riak guys diss it all the time as being "nerfed"
19:12:42  <mikeal>mbalho: making too many requests :)
19:12:50  <mikeal>i even have an increased rate limit
19:12:57  <mikeal>it's 12K instead of 5K
19:13:07  <mikeal>but after 35 minutes i blow it out
19:13:13  <mikeal>and have to sleep for like 25 minutes
19:13:58  <mbalho>how are you makign 12k unique requests? theres no way there are 12k cache misses
19:14:11  <mbalho>sorry unique is the wrong word
19:15:03  <mikeal>dude
19:15:20  <mikeal>i've checking to see if ~100K repos have a package.json
19:15:31  <mikeal>there are a *lot* of requests :)
19:15:36  <mikeal>that's just to *find* repos
19:15:56  <mikeal>once i start actually pull all the commit and issue data it's going to be exponentially more than that
19:15:57  <mbalho>they have a search
19:17:08  <mikeal>search doesn't give me the package.json
19:17:16  <mikeal>i also need the response data
19:17:35  <mbalho>whats the 100k come from?
19:18:25  <mikeal>so, first i pulled every git repo noted in the npm registry to find *users*
19:18:33  <mikeal>then i pull the user data for all of those people, including all their repos
19:18:38  <mikeal>then i check all their repos
19:18:48  <mikeal>then i pull the collaborators for all the valid repos
19:19:05  <mikeal>then i go back over all the newly found users to make sure I've got all that
19:19:15  <mikeal>in a loop until i've got everyone
19:19:23  <mikeal>and i've got all the repos
19:20:58  <mikeal>the once i have all the repos i need to mine all the data
19:21:01  <mikeal>er then
19:22:17  <mbalho>why do you need all repos by all users and not just all repos on npm?
19:22:26  <mikeal>most people don't note their repo
19:22:40  <mikeal>and i want *all activity in the entire community*, so that means all the activity in forks
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20:17:10  <jesusabdullah>creationix: I hear you're in SLC tomorrow :) gonna come hang
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20:22:48  <AvianFlu>jesusabdullah: If you haven't seen SLC punk yet
20:22:49  <AvianFlu>YOU FAIL
20:22:49  <LOUDBOT>IT IS, AND HE TOOK MY HAT AND "LOST IT", WHO KNEW...
20:23:16  <dominictarr>http://www.i-programmer.info/news/99-professional/6263-code-by-voice-faster-than-keyboard.html
20:23:25  <dominictarr>^ typing by voice
20:23:29  <dominictarr>CODING
20:24:01  <substack>COMPUTER HACKING
20:24:01  <LOUDBOT>I TOLD THIS GUYT TO GET ON IRC AND BE LIKE LOL ANNIKATOTO POOP OPS PLZ
20:25:03  <dominictarr>substack: yes, with his voice
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20:41:08  <jesusabdullah>AvianFlu: tell me about SLC punk
20:42:08  <AvianFlu>it's a movie
20:42:12  <AvianFlu>about punk rockers in SLC
20:42:17  <AvianFlu>starring that guy
20:42:19  <AvianFlu>matthew lillard?
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20:42:25  <AvianFlu>might have the wrong name there
20:42:27  <AvianFlu>but like, watch it
20:42:35  <jesusabdullah>a'ight
20:56:25  <chapel>jesusabdullah: you haven't seen slc punk?
20:57:06  <AvianFlu>I BET EVEN LOUDBOT HAS SEEN SLC PUNK
20:57:06  <LOUDBOT>SOCIALISM WAS HIS ONLY WEAKNESS
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21:09:00  <jesusabdullah>I've not
21:09:01  <jesusabdullah>!
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22:55:25  <guybrush>mhh substack made a server-destroy thing what was it called?
22:55:39  <guybrush>which destroys all the sockets
22:55:59  <guybrush>destroyer :D
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23:08:29  <isaacs>substack: thanks https://github.com/joyent/node/commit/5555318bf375a3edc17179b09b0bff1bfa9b6253
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23:46:29  <substack>isaacs: oh sweet!
23:46:46  <substack>haha 11 months ago
23:46:48  <isaacs>substack: yeah
23:47:05  <isaacs>i've been putting it off because i dind't want to land it in 0.10, and then we went and sliced up http.js in 0.12
23:47:08  <substack>surprising that it merged cleanly
23:47:09  <isaacs>so it was kind of a pita
23:47:14  <isaacs>substack: oh, it so did not merge cleanly :)
23:47:19  <substack>hah
23:49:30  <substack>isaacs: will we get `var EventEmitter = require('events')` in 0.12 too?
23:49:31  <substack>https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/5464
23:49:40  <isaacs>substack: sure, why not?
23:51:37  <substack>it's the little things, you know?
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