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00:16:33  <nexxy>substack, I hear you gave an amazing talk @ lxjs
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01:12:25  <mbalho>nexxy: the videos up on their youtubez
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01:22:54  <st_luke>Julio, will you answer the FUCKING PHONE?
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01:30:19  <substack>beep boop
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01:39:21  <jesusabdullah>ugh ux :(
01:39:33  <jesusabdullah>no liek
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02:02:38  <st_luke>Domenic_: i supposedly have an opportunity to sit in on meetings but i dont think i will anytime soon, not with the kind of culture they find acceptable
02:03:14  <Domenic_>st_luke: I guess I'm just sad that you judge an entire group by one member's twitter interactions.
02:05:21  <st_luke>I think when it's a continued problem, and the group doesn't seem to have a problem with a really public member being an internet bully, I can pretty fairly judge them for it
02:06:06  <Domenic_>not really... what a member does in his spare time shouldn't be any of the group's business
02:10:07  <st_luke>where does the line get drawn
02:11:03  <Domenic_>when he's representing the group in some way, I think?
02:11:44  <Domenic_>it seems unfair to say that he's representing the group 100% of the time; that places a large imposition on your personal life as a price for helping make the web better.
02:13:26  <st_luke>whether or not someone is publicly representing the group, that person having a history of attacking people over their beliefs doesn't make people excited to cultivate a professional relationship in a group like that
02:15:42  <st_luke>anyway this is a total dead horse argument now
02:16:16  <st_luke>if you like being a tc39 member then good, you can and should continue to be a member
02:16:51  <Domenic_>zomg internet so bad conversation almost impossible
02:17:28  <Domenic_>yeah, it'd just be cool to have you there; it's a shame one bully is enough to discourage you
02:23:53  <st_luke>its nice of you to say that
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07:52:25  <substack>crazy idea: a transform that converts export.name= and module.exports= assignment into global hashes
07:52:35  <substack>and then rewrites require() calls
07:52:51  <substack>so that minifiers can more easily cull dead code from multi-export modules like util
07:53:13  <substack>and I was testing some things and you can even still have private state with global exports like that
07:53:25  <substack>so the semantics should be the same
08:10:55  <substack>require() can just return a ref to the global to keep the semantics the same while enabling tree-shaking
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16:07:05  <mikolalysenko>Huh. I just learned that [2]*3 = 6
16:07:12  <mikolalysenko>in js anyway
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16:24:47  <Maciek416>what
16:25:05  <Maciek416>[3] * 2 is also 6
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16:25:30  <Maciek416>[2] + 3
16:25:30  <Maciek416>"23"
16:26:07  <mikolalysenko>Maciek416: js arithmetic!
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16:27:47  <Maciek416>yea
16:27:56  <Maciek416>learn something new every day
16:28:16  <Maciek416>[2].toString() * 3
16:28:18  <Maciek416>== 6
16:28:43  <Maciek416>[2].toString() + 3 == "23"
16:29:01  <Maciek416>time to consult the spec I guess
16:29:17  <mikolalysenko>the problem with js' type system is that it tries to make everything evaluate to something even if it makes no sense
16:29:44  <mikolalysenko>looking back, it probably would have been better if it just returned undefined or something when you evaluate something crazy like that...
16:30:00  <mikolalysenko>(as an aside, why does js have 3 null types? undefined, null and nan?)
16:30:21  <Maciek416>typeof NaN is number
16:30:49  <Maciek416>undefined might have been more acceptable to more people had it been named "unassigned"
16:31:30  <Maciek416>which then brings you to null, which I like to personally think of as "I've assigned a value of nil, this is not an unassigned value"
16:31:51  <Maciek416>NaN is useful for signalling that a numeric operation didn't work out to a number, I guess
16:32:03  <Maciek416>parseInt("garbage")
16:32:07  <mikolalysenko>yeah, also nan is part of the ieee754
16:32:19  <mikolalysenko>so it makes sense to have it as a sepaarate thing
16:32:28  <Maciek416>I think one thing you could do is imagine the alternative histories for these features
16:32:36  <mikolalysenko>but having both null and undefined has always seemed weird
16:32:37  <Maciek416>like, say parseInt() instead threw exceptions
16:32:46  <Maciek416>I could imagine that bringing up some objections..
16:33:14  <Maciek416>weird but once you have em you're kind of like, ok, I see how I could put these to use
16:34:23  <mikolalysenko>honestly, the situation isn't really so bad as it is. but it does result in some weird behavior every now and then
16:34:53  <Maciek416>yeah... that coercion you showed above is fun
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16:41:50  <Maciek416>mikolalysenko: [2] - [2] == 0
16:41:53  <Maciek416>:D
16:42:08  <Maciek416>mikolalysenko: "2" - [2] == 0
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23:24:01  <brianloveswords>substack: HEY!
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23:24:31  <brianloveswords>substack: I was talking with some old-school firefox dudes at the Summit, apparently headless Firefox is possible.
23:25:01  <brianloveswords>substack: I'm gonna try to get the details tomorrow, there was way too much alcohol tonight to talk in detail.
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23:25:23  <mikolalysenko>brianloveswords: you know you could also just use xvfb...
23:25:40  <brianloveswords>mikolalysenko: not cross system (like phantomjs)
23:26:06  <brianloveswords>Basically we want the phantomjs of firefox.
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23:26:33  <mikolalysenko>brianloveswords: ah, got it
23:27:01  <mikolalysenko>you can also do wine + xvfb to get windows-ish emulation
23:27:10  <mikolalysenko>it is ugly but workable
23:27:25  <brianloveswords>mikolalysenko: haha yeah, for sure possible, but way too ugly.
23:27:33  <mikolalysenko>I had to use that on a project to get some cad software to run on a linx server
23:27:34  <brianloveswords>Shit should just be better supported at the app layer.
23:27:39  <mikolalysenko>it sounds horrible, but it worked fine
23:27:54  <brianloveswords>Which, I work at mozilla and so I wanna put pressure to make it happen better natively.
23:28:10  <mikolalysenko>yeah, native offscreen rendering is nice for sure
23:28:27  <mikolalysenko>though you always run the risk of something maybe not working right
23:28:39  <mikolalysenko>like some feature is ok in the regular mode, but breaks in offscreen and vice versa
23:28:54  <mikolalysenko>doing it at the system level at least gaurantees that you are doing exactly the same thing in all cases
23:29:03  <brianloveswords>mikolalysenko: yeah, so I thought! but it turns out they use it internally for testing firefox!
23:29:11  <mikolalysenko>oh, cool
23:29:20  <brianloveswords>So if they expose it, then we're getting exactly what's used to test the system.
23:29:59  <brianloveswords>I'm gonna talk with some of the dudes more tomorrow to figure out what needs to be done to expose it.
23:30:24  <pkrumins>you can just run the browsers in testling
23:30:37  <pkrumins>don't really need any of the headless stuff
23:31:19  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: mehhh I disagree. Headless is super useful for *fast* automated testing
23:32:05  <pkrumins>testling isn't as fast as it could be
23:32:09  <brianloveswords>If you have true headless processing of the full rendering engine and the full javascript engine (which I was told we do?!), that's way better than having to spawn a whole UI system.
23:32:15  <pkrumins>we haven't optimized that part, we just run the tests sequentually pretty much
23:32:43  <pkrumins>but i agree that it would be somewhat faster
23:32:45  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: my whole reason for pushing this is to make testling faster.
23:33:06  <brianloveswords>You guys can use this instead of having to spawn full shit, ya know?
23:33:22  <brianloveswords>substack and I were talking about it at nodeconf.eu
23:33:25  <pkrumins>it takes like 500ms to spawn the browser
23:33:39  <pkrumins>on our servers
23:34:04  <brianloveswords>500ms * (SCALE)
23:35:20  <pkrumins>right
23:35:23  <brianloveswords>Also, not just testling, but doing full rendering testing, regression testing against UI that currently requires Selenium.
23:35:32  <brianloveswords>It's something that should be exposed.
23:35:56  <brianloveswords>So if we can, we should.
23:38:29  <pkrumins>that's a hard problem
23:40:30  <pkrumins>but if you can get firefox running headlessly, we can defs try it at testling
23:40:44  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: yah, that's my goal this weekend :)
23:40:56  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: and apparently I've found the right people.
23:41:15  <pkrumins>i actually like apawning the whole browser as then i can see what fucked up if the tests didn't run
23:42:55  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: reasonable for sure! But I think exposing a headless runner and comparing it against the test of the headful run would help highlight bugs in the engine itself (NOTE: NOT AN EXPERT, this might not be true)
23:43:04  <brianloveswords>But the dudes I was talking to seemed interested.
23:44:46  <brianloveswords>MY PRIMARY GOAL IN ALL OF THIS: to make internetting better, for those who make internet, and for those who consume the internet we make.
23:47:29  <pkrumins>it's pretty easy to build a thing that would compare headless vs headful firefox
23:47:57  <ednapira_>brianloveswords: hi!
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23:48:13  <brianloveswords>OH HAY ednapiranha
23:48:18  <pkrumins>okay let me know when we can try that
23:48:21  <ednapiranha>brianloveswords: how is le brussels?
23:48:28  <pkrumins>i'm up for it. also i'll be in oakland starting nov 4
23:48:32  <brianloveswords>ednapiranha: totally Brusselly
23:48:36  <ednapiranha>nice
23:49:05  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: oh rad! I'm gonna try to visit early in the new year. I'm based in Brooklyn, sometimes hard for me to make it out there.
23:49:12  <pkrumins>ahh gotcha
23:50:06  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: P.S. FUN FACT: you accepted my first (and only) C++ patch to (I believe?) your buffer base64 implementation :)
23:50:17  <pkrumins>haha cool!
23:50:26  <pkrumins>yes i did buffer base64 before node has base64 encoding
23:50:31  <pkrumins>s/has/had/
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23:51:28  <brianloveswords>pkrumins: haha yeah, I had similar issues and there was some minor thing that was a problem for something I was doing (I don't even remember what) and I had to learn any semblance of C++ to fix it because you had the only thing that was close to right.
23:51:53  <pkrumins>https://github.com/pkrumins/node-base64/commits?author=brianloveswords
23:51:56  <pkrumins>found it :)
23:52:29  <brianloveswords>HAHA!
23:52:30  <pkrumins>haha cool
23:52:37  <brianloveswords>Good thing I use the same nick everywhere.
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23:52:45  <pkrumins>yup :)
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23:57:43  <jesusabdullah>Guys my server rack is too tall for the basement so I can't use it for my home theater setup :'C
23:59:37  <pkrumins>cut the top off ;)
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