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00:00:02  <dominictarr_>except the ugly UK ones
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00:00:13  <substack>yeah well you can always just break off the grounding plug
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00:02:17  <substack>the universal power strips actually work with UK plugs
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00:05:07  <substack>dominictarr_: if you get the zhanchun bus it drops you off right in haidan
00:05:56  <substack>might also be spelled "zhongguancun"
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00:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 4, free: 48]
00:18:07  <dominictarr_>substack, I can catch the zhongguancun bus directly from the airport?
00:18:31  <Domenic__>thlorenz: nko meeting tomorrow?
00:18:46  <substack>dominictarr_: yes
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00:25:21  <substack>dominictarr_: do you have a shell to proxy your connection through?
00:25:26  <substack>I can make you one on substack.net
00:27:00  <dominictarr_>substack, am using tor
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00:27:56  <dominictarr_>(with a private bridge)
00:28:00  <substack>dominictarr_: oh cool, I would have thought the exit nodes would all be blocked
00:28:04  <substack>aha private bridge
00:28:47  <jcrugzz>dominictarr_: that an initial proxy of sorts to connect to tor?
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00:30:31  <dominictarr_>jcrugzz, it's just another tor instance that you run on a vps (or whatever) and configure it not to announce itself.
00:30:47  <jcrugzz>ahhh
00:30:48  <dominictarr_>and then you tell your local tor about that bridge
00:30:55  <jcrugzz>gotcha
00:31:13  <dominictarr_>the only way you can detect that is with traffic analysis
00:32:11  <jcrugzz>im guessing china is not THAT legit
00:32:19  <dominictarr_>substack, okay, I'm gonna try find my way over!
00:32:42  <dominictarr_>jcrugzz, I've heard they do that sometimes!
00:32:50  <dominictarr_>it's definately way more expensive
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00:33:07  <substack>dominictarr_: ok cool!
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00:34:13  <st_luke>just do a socks proxy
00:34:15  <st_luke>easiest way
00:34:32  <substack>st_luke: yes it's super easy if you already have a shell someplace
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00:55:17  <substack>jiangplus: http://irssi.org/documentation/startup#c3
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01:08:40  <isaacs>creationix: semver-as-commit-ish is not a priority, and has a heap of complexity associated with it
01:10:09  <creationix>isaacs, I'm designing my own platform. I'm just trying to not break npm compatability
01:10:42  <creationix>isaacs, I was thinking of a simple string-based match. Everything before the ~ in the #tag is a prefix and the numbers after it are a semver
01:10:53  <creationix>and only implement ~ ranges, not the others npm supports
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01:11:56  <creationix>so if a repo has tags for 'v0.1.2' and 'v0.1.3' then 'v~0.1.2' would match 'v0.1.3'
01:13:19  <isaacs>creationix: that sounds like probably not something you really need.
01:13:30  <isaacs>creationix: i mean, it's not a killer feature, and sounds like a source of bugs.
01:14:20  <creationix>isaacs, well my system will be git only for dependencies
01:14:32  <creationix>with the current npm way I would have *only* exact versions
01:14:36  <creationix>I really want semver ranges
01:15:03  <substack>creationix: I just tag my releases 1.2.3 without the v
01:15:14  <creationix>substack, as do I, but that doesn't matter
01:15:19  <creationix>this proposed idea supports both
01:15:25  <creationix>put prefix before the ~
01:15:35  <substack>couldn't you just strip off the /^v/?
01:15:36  <creationix>you could even have multiple packages in a single repo
01:16:00  <creationix>#foo/~0.1.2 and #bar/~1.2.3
01:16:38  <creationix>...since git tags can be folder hierarchies
01:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 15]
01:17:11  <guybrush>npm-registry should just switch from couch to git :p
01:17:26  <creationix>and it's no extra protocol overhead. The first thing every git server does during clone is tell the client *all* the refs
01:18:03  <creationix>guybrush, that would be one massive repo!
01:18:12  <guybrush>haha
01:18:12  <creationix>but it would make npm mirrors easier to maintain
01:18:21  <creationix>assuming your git could clone something that big
01:18:45  <creationix>probably too expensive on the server though
01:18:49  <guybrush>on the registry-server it would be just a --bare repo with submodules maybe?
01:19:48  <creationix>perhaps, though submodules are only partially stored in the git db
01:19:54  <creationix>part of them is in git config files
01:20:08  <creationix>the db only contains the remote commit hash, not the remote git url
01:22:12  <isaacs>the git host that can hold the entire npm registry is basically github a few years ago
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01:22:37  <creationix>isaacs, right, but all of github isn't a single repo
01:22:41  <isaacs>(not github today, obviously, it's much larger than npm)
01:22:51  <isaacs>creationix: wait, the whole registry would be one repo??
01:22:59  <creationix>that was one idea
01:23:09  <isaacs>creationix: !! MAXIMUM CATASTROPHE !!
01:23:13  <creationix>the simplest in terms of git, but I don't think the git algorithms will scale well that far
01:23:13  <isaacs>creationix: erm, i mean..
01:23:20  <isaacs>creationix: SOUNDS GREAT! GOOD LUCK!
01:23:24  <creationix>lol
01:23:34  <isaacs>no, srsly, that's a terrible idea
01:23:35  * creationixis not hosting a massive failure
01:24:01  <creationix>*but* I would host a single repo for 20 of my favorite modules
01:24:11  <creationix>my packages tend to be quite tiny
01:24:19  <williamcotton>hmm
01:24:22  <creationix>most I can even clone to localStorage in a browser with the 2MB limit
01:25:29  <williamcotton>why is git involved for small modules that will typically only have one author/contributor?
01:25:52  <guybrush>git is pretty usefull even if theres only 1 author
01:25:56  <creationix>williamcotton, isaacs for context. This is for a new platform I'm creating
01:26:17  <creationix>I'm writing an IDE for kids that has git baked into it's core
01:26:28  <williamcotton>oh nice!
01:26:30  <creationix>dependencies will be expressed at git urls/tag urls
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01:26:50  <creationix>but I'm trying to decide if I should maintain npm compatability incase the two platforms want to share code/modules
01:26:56  <williamcotton>guybrush: what parts are nice? version history?
01:26:58  <guybrush>creationix it would be cool to drag&drop files from desktop into the website and add it to the git-repo
01:27:09  <guybrush>williamcotton: right, and branches :D
01:27:12  <creationix>but I *need* semver ranges for my dependencies
01:27:21  <creationix>npm doesn't support ranges for git urls
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01:27:46  <creationix>guybrush, did you see the current status of my prototype?
01:27:47  <guybrush>there are some discussions regarding this topic in the npm/gh-issues
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01:27:51  <williamcotton>so like, I just made this thing that combines package/dependency management and version control in to one system
01:28:04  <guybrush>creationix: i tried it like 3 days ago, i like it a lot :D
01:28:04  <creationix>guybrush, http://tedit.creationix.com/
01:28:09  <creationix>it's better today
01:28:23  <williamcotton>and it has version history… for branching, you just make a new module if you want to try something out
01:28:26  <creationix>clone https://github.com/creationix/conquest.git
01:28:33  <creationix>(in tedit that is)
01:28:36  <guybrush>creationix: the file-tree is empty now?
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01:28:43  <guybrush>ah lol !
01:28:44  <creationix>guybrush, right, I removed the sample data
01:28:47  <williamcotton>my main motivation was git ihas too much overhead for publishing a 5 line function
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01:29:13  <creationix>williamcotton, unless you can host several tiny modules in a single git repo
01:29:16  <chilts>creationix: have you seen this : https://github.com/tantaman/LargeLocalStorage/ (am just referring to what you said about the 2MB limit) - ignore me if this isn't what you're talking about
01:29:17  <guybrush>wow!
01:29:45  <creationix>guybrush, if you click on an image preview, it toggles between zoom and tiled
01:29:45  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 173.203.67.76 (free3)
01:29:55  <creationix>even svg
01:29:56  <creationix>:)
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01:30:19  <williamcotton>and it was also inspired by some research papers I was reading related to buggy code and the number of authors and churn on the code
01:30:22  <guybrush>sweet
01:30:30  <guybrush>i really like it a lot!
01:30:41  <guybrush>but you are limited to 2mb right?
01:30:45  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.226.209 (free4)
01:30:49  <creationix>guybrush, no, this is using indexeddb
01:30:52  <mikolalysenko>npm still hates me. I can't publish anything :(
01:30:55  <creationix>much larger limit
01:31:00  <guybrush>ah ok
01:31:04  <creationix>you can see it in web inspector
01:31:07  <guybrush>but still its not like 100mb isnt it?
01:31:20  <creationix>for the chrome-app version it will be unlimited
01:31:24  <creationix>not sure what web pages get
01:31:32  <guybrush>right
01:31:36  <creationix>I do know it can handle repos that localStorage can't
01:31:42  <guybrush>did you think about node-webkit?
01:31:56  <guybrush>instead of chrome-app
01:32:57  <williamcotton>creationix: this is pretty close to some stuff I've been working on as well!
01:33:10  <williamcotton>http://www.corslit.com/williamcotton/superDraw
01:33:30  <williamcotton>if ya'll got a minute, I'd love to show off this live coding thing
01:33:41  <williamcotton>pub sub for code modules, haha
01:33:59  <guybrush>just recently i installed hyro and haroopad which i use now regularly :D
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01:36:27  <williamcotton>so like, superDraw is a module I whipped up that subscribes to other modules… and if those modules happen to expose a draw() function, it'll call that every tick of a requestAnimationFrame
01:37:01  <williamcotton>so like in that demo it is subscribing to a couple of modules including http://www.corslit.com/williamcotton/sprite:cat
01:37:27  <williamcotton>so like, whenever I make any changes to sprite:cat, it'll update the demo
01:37:51  <williamcotton>and my buddy humboldtchaska can update his code at the same time, so we can both be live coding
01:38:28  <jcrugzz>mikolalysenko: whats it yelling at you with?
01:38:33  <jcrugzz>gist me if you could
01:38:40  <guybrush>williamcotton: it publishes to npm and you subscribe to the registry _change?
01:39:25  <williamcotton>no, it doesn't use npm or git for now, it's just a proof-of-concept
01:39:40  <williamcotton>but it can do static builds of the entire dependency tree
01:39:55  <williamcotton>and it can do it instantly because it has all of the source in redis
01:40:10  <guybrush>nice
01:40:28  <williamcotton>like this http://www.corslit.com/v0/williamcotton/FutureTwin:Bolinas-v0.0.5.js
01:40:40  <williamcotton>UMD wrapper
01:41:15  <williamcotton>dog fooding big time, haha: http://www.corslit.com/v0/williamcotton/lit-v0.0.1.js
01:41:31  <williamcotton>almost all of the client-side JS is hosted in itself
01:42:06  <williamcotton>I've got this insane idea to port the Ace editor to it, haha
01:42:59  <williamcotton>I've been hesitant to get npm or git involved, to be honest!
01:43:24  <williamcotton>I don't have an explicit reason as to why not, I guess I just always looked at npm as for node stuff
01:43:31  <williamcotton>and not super applicable to the browser
01:44:32  <jcrugzz>williamcotton: it is definitely applicable ;)
01:44:57  <williamcotton>well, as long as it isn't Bower, haha
01:45:49  <williamcotton>I love live coding and I love systems like Smalltalk and Self
01:46:32  <williamcotton>it just seemed like less friction to have the module dependency system fully in the browser runtime
01:46:47  <williamcotton>almost like I'm treating it as a Smalltalk object store
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01:47:27  <williamcotton>and I may or may not be in the process of making something like Self… but like, not in the http://lively-kernel.org kind of way
01:48:00  <williamcotton>a bit more inspired by npm any github and less from dudes in the 80s with mom jeans and weird mustaches
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01:58:15  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 173.203.67.76 (free3)
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02:12:35  <mikolalysenko>jcrugzz: it is working now
02:12:51  <jcrugzz>mikolalysenko: awesome, good to hear
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02:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 28]
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02:50:15  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.226.209 (free4)
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02:59:45  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 173.203.67.76 (free3)
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03:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 35]
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04:14:16  <Raynos>creationix: are you in SF this weekend ?
04:14:37  * anvakajoined
04:15:14  <creationix>Raynos, nope, sorry
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04:16:30  <Raynos>cool
04:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 20]
04:17:21  <niftylettuce>can anyone here make sense of what this means/does and how i can get it to work on my end with the TrustZone stuff? http://blog.azimuthsecurity.com/2013/04/unlocking-motorola-bootloader.html
04:17:26  <niftylettuce>pkrumins: maybe you?
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04:35:46  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 173.203.67.76 (free3)
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04:47:28  <creationix>Raynos, I'll probably be spending most of tomorrow and Wednesday getting js-git to the point that node knockout teams can use it
04:47:40  <creationix>Raynos, it certainly may be useful for ours.
04:48:17  <substack>creationix: excellent!
04:48:55  <creationix>tomorrow I'll be implementing push. The demo app is finally ready for it
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05:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 21]
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06:16:44  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [developer: 21, free: 463]
06:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 17]
06:25:56  <Raynos>creationix: cool :)
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06:31:42  <dominictarr_>substack: wow, I think I'm lost... what is the address oy your hostel?
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06:37:59  <substack>dominictarr_: we're at http://t.co/BVxKuXKuoj
06:38:18  <substack>the place is called sculpting in time
06:38:20  <substack>and they have wifi
06:38:34  <dominictarr_>I'm in a starbucks right now :(
06:38:42  <substack>on chengfu road?
06:38:44  <dominictarr_>and they blocked ports
06:38:48  <dominictarr_>I'm near there
06:39:07  <substack>no blocked ports here
06:39:07  <dominictarr_>across road from xiyuan station
06:39:28  <dominictarr_>luckily I could ssh into my server and run irssi over ssh
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06:46:01  <dominictarr_>substack: is that your hostel?
06:46:21  <substack>dominictarr_: it's a coffee shop
06:46:26  <substack>we're not at the hostel anymore
06:46:39  <substack>we're going to stay at one of jiangplus's friends places
06:47:09  <dominictarr_>oh - can I join you guys?
06:47:25  <dominictarr_>(otherwise I have a hostel arleady booked)
06:48:06  <substack>yep come on by!
06:48:16  <substack>I'm going to get some tea
06:48:32  <dominictarr_>substack: also, we should get folding bikes!
06:50:11  <substack>do you know a place?
06:50:24  <substack>I saw a place that was renting and selling bikes nearby but not sure they had folding bikes
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06:52:26  <dominictarr_>substack: I've been walking around for ages and have seen several
06:53:57  <dominictarr_>If the folding bike is small enough, you'll be able to check it in as your luggage on the flight home.
06:54:46  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.226.209 (free4)
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06:55:06  <dominictarr_>substack: what is the name of the cafe you are in?
06:55:25  <substack>dominictarr_: sculpting in time
06:55:30  <dominictarr_>ah, rigth
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16:26:01  <brianloveswords>Open question: if you had to parse XML, which module would you use?
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16:27:36  <Maciek416>brianloveswords: I was using this one https://npmjs.org/package/libxml but I hate the API
16:27:44  <Maciek416>libxml itself is fantastic but that module needs a ton of work
16:27:47  <tmcw>brianloveswords: htmlparser2 for speed, xmldom if it has to work in a browser too
16:28:17  <Maciek416>tmcw brianloveswords: the problem with using htmlparser is that it gets some XML trees wrong
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16:28:57  <Maciek416>if you're doing a lot of ATOM/RSS parsing you'll run into issues of certain-named nodes being put in bizarro places
16:29:41  <Maciek416>that's my experience anyway O_o
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16:38:04  <brianloveswords>Maciek416: I'm using it entirely for SVG, so the docs will be fairly simple.
16:38:23  <brianloveswords>(I'm messing with reading/adding metadata to SVGs, not dealing with the image data)
16:40:05  <Maciek416>if I know a document won't trip up htmlparser2 I use cheerio to work with it, nice familiar API
16:40:09  <Maciek416>otherwise libxml
16:41:43  <brianloveswords>Maciek416: rad, thanks! I was playing with cheerio, hoping it would work, glad to know there's precedent.
16:43:14  <Maciek416>cheerio is really awesome for HTML, but it can be a bit weird for some XML.. when I came across some of those issues I tried to fix them but I think more cases remain... YMMV
16:43:23  <Maciek416>it is blazingly fast though
16:47:28  <brianloveswords>Aww man, yeah, I'm having trouble because I can't select namespaced tags – it thinks I'm trying to use a pseudo selector.
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16:54:30  <Maciek416>brianloveswords: yeeeaah that's a pickle
16:55:13  <Maciek416>brianloveswords: libxml can handle namespaces, the way to handle them so that your selectors recognize them is kinda annoying , you have to pass in a hash { nskey: "namespace url here", ... }
16:55:16  <Maciek416>annoying but it works
16:55:47  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.103.135 (free2)
16:56:00  <Maciek416>similar to doing namespace madness in nokogiri if you've ever done that
16:57:16  <jesusabdullah>whoa whoa whoa don't use pickle only python can open those :(
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16:58:48  <guybrush>brianloveswords: i wouldnt use it but php works really good with xml :D everytime i read xml i have to think about php with SimpleXML
17:00:45  <guybrush>with all the xsl-transformation-madness and even pdf processors
17:03:11  <brianloveswords>Fuck it, I'm gonna do something insane so I can keep using cheerio :)
17:09:35  <Maciek416>brianloveswords: welcome to my world
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18:00:40  <Domenic_>thlorenz: should have made those modules use semver so that you could have bumped the version to 2.0 and nobody would break ;)
18:01:34  <thlorenz>Domenic_: good point, but too late now ;)
18:02:02  <thlorenz>this doesn't add features, but just changes API, so it's arguable if this is a major bump
18:02:41  <Domenic_>any backward-incompat changes are a major bump
18:02:46  <Domenic_>features are minor bumps
18:02:49  <thlorenz>however, this will only break modules that consume sourcemaps from the source, and the ones that do already work with both versions -- see my updated comment in a sec
18:02:58  <thlorenz>Domenic_: ok, I'll remember that for the future
18:03:06  <Domenic_>but yeah the definition of backward-incompat is not always clear
18:03:17  <Domenic_>e.g. if your external API did not change at all but the strings your external API returned changed...
18:03:29  <Domenic_>my thoughts were more that if you were concerned about consumer breakages, that means major version bump
18:03:51  <creationix>yep, bump the first non-zero number if you ever break API
18:04:16  <Domenic_>no, bump the first number -_- </semver-purist>
18:04:35  <creationix>same thing, leading zeroes don't count ;)
18:04:46  <Domenic_>hate the leading zeroesssss
18:04:55  <Domenic_>chai-as-promised hit version 4.0 recently
18:04:56  <creationix>0.0.0.1.2
18:04:58  <creationix>:P
18:05:32  <creationix>I tend to stay in 0.x.y forever so I don't ever have to bump the first num
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18:06:31  <thlorenz>Domenic_: but then we'd have to upgrade browserify to 3.0 b/c of this right (since dep mod changed major version) -- that fells weird
18:06:57  <Domenic_>thlorenz: no, I don't think it changes browserify in a backward-incompat way.
18:07:28  <Domenic_>i guess it comes down to the levels of incompat thing again. e.g. it may be considered backward-incompat for a module entirely about source maps to switch from @ to #. but not for one that's about browserifying
18:07:29  <thlorenz>yes it does, since sourcemaps wouldn't work in older browsers (once still looking for //@)
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18:08:04  <thlorenz>anyways, I'm happy all these changes are finally in minor|major :) -- lots of juggling involved
18:08:30  <Domenic_>yeah i think my offhand comment distracted us from whta's really important --- good things happened. :)
18:09:35  <chrisdickinson>ooh, good things? what good things?
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18:16:17  <thlorenz>chrisdickinson: I think Domenic_ is referring to : https://github.com/thlorenz/combine-source-map/issues/3#issuecomment-27796483
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18:25:32  <chrisdickinson>thlorenz_: ah, awesome!
18:26:03  <thlorenz_>still need to fix sourcemap file maps, but should get this done today or tomorrow the latest
18:26:42  <thlorenz_>sass-resolve will then inline all sourcemaps including .scss file content (scss --sourcemap creates a map file that just lists the original files)
18:26:54  <thlorenz_>I wanna avoid having to serve the map file and all original files
18:29:07  <Domenic_>it's more useful for production though
18:29:13  <Domenic_>someone wrote something that de-inlines them
18:29:19  <thlorenz_>Domenic_: that makes sense
18:29:38  <thlorenz_>however you can just not include source maps, period when in production
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18:30:03  <thlorenz_>sass-resolve will allow you to pick which way you like it, i.e. inlined (default) or not-inlined
18:31:24  <thlorenz_>I'm just trying to make things as easy to get going with as possible -- kinda like browserify ;)
18:31:29  <Domenic_>thlorenz_: the beauty of non-inlined production source maps is that you can then debug production
18:31:36  <Domenic_>but yes i totally agree inlined is the right default
18:31:57  <thlorenz_>I know, but then you need to add routes to your server to serve the originals
18:32:07  <thlorenz_>it's nice though if you set it up, I agree
18:32:26  <Domenic_>hmm i thought you just added bundle.js and bundle.js.map
18:32:45  <thlorenz_>well if the bundle.js.map includes sources of originals
18:32:51  <thlorenz_>but scss doesn't do that ;)
18:32:56  <thlorenz_>it just adds the files paths
18:33:07  <Domenic_>ah weird ok
18:33:15  <thlorenz_>so I guess that brings up a good point, maybe there should be three options
18:33:29  <thlorenz_>inlined, inlinedInMap, separate
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18:34:00  <Domenic_>let me find the package that already does this
18:34:05  <Domenic_>maybe it doesn't work with sass
18:34:33  <Domenic_>this one i think https://github.com/ben-ng/minifyify
18:36:03  <thlorenz_>actually that does something different I think
18:36:14  <thlorenz_>it minifies your bundle while maintaining sourcemaps
18:36:38  <thlorenz_>well mold-source-map allows you to do anything with an inlined sourcemap
18:36:53  <Domenic_>i think it pulls it all out into a single .map file though. that was my impression.
18:36:56  <thlorenz_>and with convert-source-map any of these operations become rather trivial
18:37:04  <thlorenz_>yep it does, but that is not the main feature
18:37:15  <thlorenz_>just one of the features
18:38:23  <thlorenz_>gonna be hard to pull out just the sm functionality, I'll just use convert-source-map ;)
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19:00:39  <williamcotton>ogd: what's up with requirebin these days?
19:01:14  <ogd>williamcotton: ive been working on other things but its not broken or anything
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19:01:39  <williamcotton>yeah, it seems to be working fine! I'm digging it
19:02:52  <williamcotton>ogd: so like, got a second to check something out? I'm noticing a similarity with something I'm building and thinking there might be room for some abstract thought and making an API for shared functionality
19:03:13  <williamcotton>bit.ly/175oOYA
19:03:49  <williamcotton>so like, this guy also loads some dependencies over the wire
19:03:58  <williamcotton>they just happen to be coming from another place
19:05:21  <ogd>williamcotton: the one neat thing that requirebin does is that it compiles a static version of the bundle and saves it in a gist, and hitting requirebin.com/embed/:id loads the precompiled version in an iframe (all static, no dynamic stuff) so its quite fast
19:05:47  <ogd>williamcotton: also i support anything browserify supports, looks like youre using AMD
19:05:51  <williamcotton>for sure, yeah, I built the same kind of mechanism, haha
19:06:01  <williamcotton>http://futuretwinbolinas.neocities.org
19:06:26  <williamcotton>yeah, lit is all built on top of requireJS, so AMD all the way
19:06:30  <ogd>williamcotton: requirebin is somewhat abstracted already, look at the dependencies. also browserify-cdn is a separate repo
19:06:42  <ogd>williamcotton: im too busy to hack on it at the moment but i can answer questions if they come up
19:06:46  <williamcotton>yup yup, but...
19:07:10  <williamcotton>nah, not looking for that, just to talk about an abstraction that I'm seeing
19:07:59  <williamcotton>so like, I'm looking at requirebin, and a few other projects going around, including one Raynos is getting going for knockout
19:08:43  <williamcotton>and the only real differences between these things and what I've been hacking away on
19:08:51  <williamcotton>is the data store
19:08:54  <creationix>williamcotton, I'm pretty excited about adding modules to the tedit platform I'm working on
19:09:15  <creationix>git makes a pretty good data store
19:09:20  <williamcotton>requirebin/npm-the-wizard are built on top of npm, git, github, and browserify
19:09:51  <williamcotton>I'm having fun building something that is basically the four of those things combined in to one
19:10:01  <williamcotton>for one, it is kind of simple and was easy to build, haha
19:10:15  <ogd>williamcotton: yea requirebin only has export to gist, but it could support other things e.g. jsgit
19:10:28  <kanzure>is jsgit a javascript implementation of igt?
19:10:29  <kanzure>*git
19:10:33  <creationix>requirebin has a server component right?
19:10:36  <williamcotton>and it gives me a bit more freedom and speed for the kinds of builds and live coding I want to do
19:10:40  <williamcotton>but my thought is
19:10:50  <creationix>kanzure, yeah, that's my project
19:10:58  <creationix>kanzure, tedit is one of my demo apps that uses it http://tedit.creationix.com/
19:10:58  <williamcotton>why can't things be written to whatever kind of data store?
19:11:17  <williamcotton>like maybe someone wants to just Hg, or CVS, or whatever the heck they want, haha
19:11:17  <ogd>creationix: requirebin.com is 100% client side served from a cdn, the two server side components are a generic github oauth redirector proxy server thing and browserify-cdn (http://wzrd.in)
19:11:40  <creationix>ogd, ok, because currently js-git needs a proxy to run in browsers
19:11:47  <creationix>only for push/pull/clone
19:11:55  <ogd>creationix: whats the proxy do?
19:12:02  <creationix>github doesn't have CORS on their http git endpoints
19:12:07  <creationix>so other domains can't talk to it
19:12:09  <ogd>bah
19:12:25  <ogd>brb giving a talk at a meetup
19:12:26  <creationix>the proxy is just a websocket route that acts as a tcp/tls proxy
19:12:31  <creationix>I implement http in js in the client
19:12:31  <williamcotton>github also could do with some competition and more openness :)
19:13:00  <williamcotton>and possibly a data store that is based on a distributed hash table...
19:13:10  <creationix>I think I'll add git server support to js-git in the next milestone
19:13:12  <creationix>trying to get push done today
19:13:26  <williamcotton>creationix: that's awesome!
19:13:43  <creationix>williamcotton, the core of git is really nice, it's just a content-addressable database
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19:13:50  <williamcotton>btw, I'm not anti-git or anti-github, I just have some different requirements for my projects
19:13:56  <creationix>a distributed hash-table could easily be a backend to git
19:14:00  <williamcotton>yeah, but it is slow
19:14:10  <creationix>what's slow?
19:14:18  <williamcotton>writes and reads
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19:14:37  <williamcotton>what if I need to write 60 times a second?
19:14:55  <creationix>oh, you mean 60 updates to documents/second
19:14:57  <creationix>yeah, don't use git for that
19:15:24  <williamcotton>i've got some crazy live coding stuff in the works, and I need that speed!
19:15:53  <williamcotton>but I also see a lot of similar underlying desires, you know?
19:16:08  <williamcotton>with things that are going on with git/npm/github
19:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 22]
19:16:53  <williamcotton>and I figure there are tools that could be built to work with multiple data stores
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19:18:11  <creationix>williamcotton, btw, in tedit, I have four-levels of storage for data. from very fast and in-memory to slow and permamently pushed to a remote git repo.
19:18:42  <williamcotton>what are the four levels?
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19:18:59  <creationix>1 - in-memory buffers. These are updated on every key-stroke
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19:19:21  <williamcotton>i like that :)
19:19:25  <creationix>2- staged in the local js-git repo with an auto-updated tag (this will survive page refreshes)
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19:19:35  <creationix>3-manual commits to the local store
19:19:40  <creationix>4- pushed to remote
19:20:43  <creationix>and I'm working on a unified vfs that reads from all of those layered. So you can run code live
19:20:53  <creationix>with a browserify-style compile step
19:20:56  <williamcotton>hey so I've got a really easy interface to push to lit… one thing lit has is code pub/sub… you you register a client-side callback that gets called with the new module every time the code is published… uses websockets/firebase
19:20:57  <creationix>with other local git repos as dependencies
19:21:18  <creationix>yeah, I haven't done any pub-sub
19:21:27  <creationix>I'm trying to focus on the single-user, offline case for now
19:21:40  <williamcotton>if you have those layer abstractions already, tedit could probably interface with lit pretty easily!
19:22:52  <williamcotton>my cors headers make github look like stalin-era russian
19:23:05  <williamcotton>;P
19:23:16  <creationix>they have cors for their normal APIs
19:23:31  <creationix>I guess nobody has ever tried to clone from a web-browser because it's hard to implement git in js
19:23:45  <creationix>normal git doesn't care about cors, it's a cli tool
19:23:52  <williamcotton>yup
19:24:17  <creationix>now, the chrome-app and firefox-app and node versions of js-git don't need cors
19:24:21  <creationix>they can talk directly to github
19:25:01  <williamcotton>sure, but that's not really "web land", hence your work on browser js-git!
19:25:32  <williamcotton>honestly, I would have probably built corslit.com using js-git if it had been around 5 months ago, haha
19:26:52  <williamcotton>but I've been finding a lot of nice things about building a sort of lightweight git on top of redis
19:27:16  <creationix>yephttp://tedit.creationix.com/do you do trees and blobs the same way?
19:28:10  <creationix>the tree/blob hash part of git-core is really nice
19:28:14  <creationix>the network protocols, not so much
19:28:24  <williamcotton>it is close, but it doesn't use diffs
19:28:33  <williamcotton>it just stores the entirety of each version
19:28:36  <creationix>git doesn't use diffs
19:28:38  <creationix>not at the core atleast
19:28:46  <creationix>no diffs are ever stored
19:28:56  <creationix>they are only used for high-level stuff like merges and rebase
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19:29:59  <williamcotton>I just store each version in redis
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19:30:47  <williamcotton>so like, store to someModule#98j9834 and then add "someModule#98j9834" to a list called "someModule"
19:30:49  <creationix>do you store entire trees or individual files?
19:31:21  <williamcotton>and on write, it looks up and stores the dependency graph at that time
19:31:36  <williamcotton>and then when you build, you reference that dependency graph
19:31:40  <williamcotton>or submit your own
19:32:11  <creationix>so in git, the sha1 hash is literally the sha1 hash of the value
19:32:17  <williamcotton>there's no concept of multiple working on the same module… they're always namespaced to the individual
19:32:27  <williamcotton>"multiple people working"
19:32:39  <creationix>which means if the same data is used in several places, it' only stored once
19:33:06  <williamcotton>hah, yeah, I like doing that with embedding code in URL params :)
19:33:17  <williamcotton>the key is a code is the data is the...
19:33:38  <creationix>right, the key *is* the data, just "compressed"
19:33:51  <creationix>easily "extracted" by retrieving the key from the database
19:34:33  <creationix>now the problem with using git solely for high-frequency updates is you're create a ton of db entries
19:34:40  <williamcotton>yeah
19:34:42  <creationix>most will eventually become orphans
19:34:44  <Domenic_>streams state machine https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/29
19:34:46  <creationix>but that makes the GC's job hard
19:35:57  <williamcotton>yeah
19:36:04  <creationix>Domenic_ I like "waitForReadable" instead of a "readable" event
19:36:19  <Domenic_>creationix: thanks, I think it is pretty nice :)
19:37:02  <creationix>it's a better fit. You only care about that event if you're waiting for readable
19:37:09  <creationix>so why not make it a one-shot async function
19:37:31  <williamcotton>git was designed for multiple people to work on a single monolithic codebase, and it works really well as that
19:37:40  * toddselfpart
19:37:42  <williamcotton>and I don't think that style of development is gonna go away!
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19:38:00  <creationix>williamcotton, I'm not even starting to talk about the high-level stuff
19:38:07  <creationix>I haven't implemented any of that in js-git yet
19:38:25  <creationix>the part I like is how the data is stored internally
19:38:40  <williamcotton>yeah
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19:38:56  <creationix>you just need a layer before git that handles fast updates better
19:38:58  <williamcotton>so like, that type of data store enables the higher level stuff to work so well
19:38:59  <creationix> hence my in-memory layer
19:39:10  <williamcotton>but it has trade-offs!
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19:39:40  <williamcotton>and the thing is, my requirements didn't really call for "multiple people working on a single monolithic" codebase
19:39:44  <creationix>yeah, the commit objects are interesting
19:39:57  <williamcotton>just individuals owning their own code completely
19:39:59  <creationix>though in single-user mode, they make nice roll-back snapshots
19:41:23  <williamcotton>and because of that, I could optimize for that kind of development!
19:41:49  <williamcotton>again, just based on my use-case and these things I'm wanting to build on top of it
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19:42:41  <williamcotton>so is there a layer of abstraction that combines these two different use cases?
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19:48:01  <williamcotton>btw, I really like the motivations for tedit! a lot of my motivations are based on making an easier development environment so I can do some fun coding with my young nephews, who have been just too perplexed and overwhelmed by the console and all of the requisite skills to navigate that world
19:48:56  <creationix>williamcotton, yep. I've been beta testing on local kids and teenagers. The console is where I lose most
19:49:11  <creationix>also things like whitespace and semicolons
19:49:16  <creationix>I'll make the editor auto-format those
19:49:29  <williamcotton>that's a good call
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19:51:21  <creationix>I programmed Q-Basic for about 10 years back in the 90's
19:51:22  <creationix>it's auto-white-space formatting was awesome
19:51:27  <creationix>it even went so far as to make each submodule (think function) have it's own editor window as if it was a file
19:51:35  <creationix>on disk it was all one long file, but not visually
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20:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 35]
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20:59:52  <williamcotton>what if, when an API changed, say a method name, some automated process went through every module that used that module as a dependency, forked that module, renamed the method call, and then then submitted pull requests to all of the original authors?
21:00:34  <tmcw>williamcotton: crazy talk!
21:00:56  <williamcotton><//////~~~
21:01:02  <tmcw>though, it does seem like that's always the 5% that 'refactoring tools' do - renaming methods is pretty doable programmatically, but it isn't really the hard-work/annoying part of refactoring
21:02:12  <williamcotton>yeah, I'm just reading the Eclipse docs on refactoring, haha
21:02:21  <williamcotton>http://help.eclipse.org/juno/index.jsp?topic=%2Forg.eclipse.jdt.doc.user%2Freference%2Fref-menu-refactor.htm
21:02:23  <williamcotton>:P
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21:05:55  <williamcotton>and then this guy: http://www.laputan.org/pub/papers/opdyke-thesis.pdf
21:06:03  <mikolalysenko>williamcotton: a simpler solution though would be to make each module export only one function via module.exports...
21:06:23  <williamcotton>I agree with that completely :)
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21:12:00  <williamcotton>does that make sense in every situation, though?
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21:16:00  <williamcotton>and what if the arguments to that function change? lets say you pass in an object of options to the function that you're calling… what if instead of renaming method calls some sort of refactoring tool renamed changes to the options? I mean, at many points during development code is coupled by references to the same string of characters
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21:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 29]
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21:37:32  <williamcotton>what if a runtime (node or browser) logged all client errors and had an API to subscribe to those error? so then what if in my editor it alerted me to failures in code currently running on people's machines all over the globe?
21:38:45  <mikolalysenko>williamcotton: so if you change the arguments around too much, why not make a new module?
21:39:11  <mikolalysenko>or if you are deprecating something, just increment semver stuff
21:39:24  <williamcotton>hmm, yeah, I guess that works
21:40:43  <williamcotton>ok, so let's say I did that… what alerts authors of modules that depend on my module that I've moved to this new module?
21:41:00  <williamcotton>i guess the good thing about an updated API and a failure is at least you know about it, haha
21:41:02  <mikolalysenko>williamcotton: https://npmjs.org/doc/cli/npm-deprecate.html
21:41:13  <williamcotton>gotcha
21:41:54  <mikolalysenko>generally though only use that if a previous version is seriously flawed
21:41:58  <kriskowal>isaacs: i'm giving a talk this week and need a link to your post, i thought on es-discuss, about requirements for streams, particularly words to the effect "any proposal that does not account for back pressure is not a viable proposal at all"
21:42:15  <kriskowal>404
21:42:32  <Domenic_>kriskowal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JulSep/0275.html
21:42:45  <Domenic_>kriskowal: found it via https://github.com/whatwg/streams#background-reading
21:43:51  <kriskowal>thanks
21:45:59  <substack>https://twitter.com/polymer/status/397840901986209792
21:48:44  <mikolalysenko>substack: awesome!
21:48:51  <mikolalysenko>more mainstream support for browserify/npm
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22:02:18  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.226.209(free4)
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22:03:40  * defunctzombie_zzchanged nick to defunctzombie
22:04:06  <defunctzombie>I feel like we need a leaner browserify core
22:04:07  <defunctzombie>something with less deps and maybe no CLI
22:04:11  <defunctzombie>just a lib
22:04:48  <Domenic_>defunctzombie: whose problems does that solve. i.e. who will be able to do things they cannot do today.
22:05:07  <defunctzombie>faster installs
22:05:09  <defunctzombie>hahaha
22:05:14  <defunctzombie>it wasn't a thing we *need* to do
22:05:36  <defunctzombie>was more of a side comment on api vs command line stuff
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22:09:28  <defunctzombie>what's a good name for some html you want to allow the user to "inject" into a fixture page...?
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22:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 27]
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22:25:40  <williamcotton>defunctzombie: there should be some libs that do some things and then thin wrappers that expose that lib to both the CLI and network endpoint… making web services that have to make calls outside of themselves to run commands on the shell seems… I dunno, silly :)
22:25:42  <thlorenz_>defunctzombie: partial?
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22:26:17  <thlorenz_>defunctzombie: also why do you need that, you can create custom html index via zuul --config
22:26:35  <defunctzombie>thlorenz_: not anymore (well, you can)
22:26:46  <defunctzombie>but I don't want people to have to reproduce test boilerplate crap
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22:27:00  <defunctzombie>it should be easy to just have some html you want
22:27:07  <thlorenz>ok that makes sense, but you are not taking away functionality right?
22:27:14  <defunctzombie>I probably am
22:27:23  <defunctzombie>we shall see
22:27:27  <thlorenz>cause some ppl may want to create that index from a template and compile it
22:27:47  <defunctzombie>my goal is to get a good working version first that is flexible when needed
22:27:55  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: well I'll see what you come up with and see if I can still do what I need
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22:28:13  <thlorenz>otherwise I'll publish my own from the current state, call it zuulu :)
22:28:27  <defunctzombie>hahaha
22:28:36  <defunctzombie>once you see the new stuff you can see where it works or doesn't for you
22:28:41  <thlorenz>yep
22:28:42  <defunctzombie>it may already support what you want
22:29:47  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: making lots of example repos
22:29:53  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: get it working with engine.io-client
22:30:03  <thlorenz>wow sounds neato
22:30:06  <defunctzombie>and now playing with some random ember/qunit stuff
22:30:15  <defunctzombie>how do people write code with all these globals
22:30:18  <defunctzombie>jesus
22:30:43  <thlorenz>they don't know any better cause even the tutorials tell 'em to create window.TODO ;)
22:30:50  <thlorenz>real story ...
22:30:58  <defunctzombie>hahaha
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22:35:53  <defunctzombie>this is insane..
22:36:01  <defunctzombie>seriously... people do this kind of js dev
22:36:03  <defunctzombie>with no requires
22:36:07  <defunctzombie>wtf
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22:42:13  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I think zuul will support more than mocha
22:42:21  <defunctzombie>thinking support for qunit
22:42:23  <defunctzombie>mocha-tdd
22:42:25  <defunctzombie>mocha-qunit
22:42:29  <defunctzombie>mocha-bdd
22:42:32  <defunctzombie>tape
22:42:57  <thlorenz>nice - just consume tap output?
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22:43:26  <thlorenz>defunctzombie or anyone else in NYC interested in talking streams we are meeting at 6pm https://twitter.com/tbuchok/status/397855988923265024
22:44:33  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I would if I wasn't already meeting for this ember testing thing
22:44:35  <defunctzombie>to show them zuul
22:44:36  <defunctzombie> :)
22:44:56  <thlorenz>ah, cool -- tell 'em about them bad globals ;)
22:45:34  <defunctzombie>yea
22:45:35  <defunctzombie>:)
22:48:48  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 173.203.67.76(free3)
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22:57:10  <jesusabdullah>run, run, run the migration
22:57:28  <jesusabdullah>ember: At Least We're Not Angular
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23:13:22  <defunctzombie>haha
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23:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 44]
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