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00:25:27  <grncdr>ogd: groundwater: will you guys be at sweetbar long? I kind of fell into a post-lunch food coma
00:25:53  <ogd>grncdr: probably not more than an hour or two
00:27:01  <grncdr>k, I'm going to stay glued to this couch for now, so don't wait up for me if you were going to
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00:28:39  <grncdr>groundwater: do you live hang out in Oakland a lot? I would feel bad if I was missing my one chance to meet IRC people IRL ;)
00:30:38  <groundwater>grncdr i'm nearby, i live north of berkeley
00:30:50  <groundwater>i'm in portland next week, if you're bust we can meet up the week after
00:31:58  <grncdr>sounds good
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01:03:28  <ogd>:D https://github.com/maxogden/install-node-on-ubuntu
01:06:11  <kid_icarus>woah, that's neat ogd :)
01:06:35  <ogd>kid_icarus: works well w/ digital ocean droplets
01:06:49  <kid_icarus>nice!
01:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 19]
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01:44:18  <jksd>hello
01:44:48  <jksd>"hmmm
01:44:55  <substack>I forget how the irc protocol works
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01:44:58  <substack>anyways
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02:03:04  <grncdr>substack: there's a pretty decent looking node module that implements a stream based parser for the IRC protocol
02:03:56  <grncdr>it's text/line oriented, where messages are prefixed by some metadata, but I don't remember the specifics beyond that
02:09:11  <grncdr>crap, too many modules
02:10:06  <grncdr>this one: https://npmjs.org/package/irc-message-stream
02:10:33  <grncdr>I liked that the parser was published as a separate module
02:15:05  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 166.78.104.64(dev-ie10-2)
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02:50:00  <substack>grncdr: I was just showing somebody the irc protocol
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02:50:21  <grncdr>oh I see
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02:56:19  <groundwater>grncdr: ogd showed me your js-shell-parse module, that's pretty cool
02:57:37  <grncdr>groundwater: hah it's very not complete though!
02:57:54  <grncdr>as in, not complete enough to even publish version 0 on npm
02:58:03  <groundwater>grncdr better than https://github.com/jacobgroundwater/node-bin-nsh
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02:58:39  <grncdr>oh neat
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02:59:15  <grncdr>hey you have a command parser and stuff....
02:59:16  <grncdr>hm
02:59:42  <grncdr>where are the repos for those?
03:00:51  <grncdr>like, let me really qualify that shell-parse (eventual planned npm name) does not work
03:01:22  <grncdr>I might throw the whole thing out and start again, part of the reason being I no longer have as much love for pegjs
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03:03:10  <grncdr>and generated parsers in general… I'm thinking about moving everything to a parser combinator style where I can hand-write all the little parsers and test them in isolation more easily
03:03:56  <grncdr>also, pegjs does not work well in a streaming context, which necessitates some really hacky workarounds at the moment
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03:17:52  <groundwater>grncdr i think they're on github, but i forgot to mention that in the npm repo
03:17:54  <groundwater>let me check
03:21:18  <groundwater>grncdr which module are you talking about?
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03:37:15  <grncdr>groundwater: lib-cmdparse
03:37:24  <grncdr>it's published on npm, but no repo link
03:38:27  <groundwater>grncdr: my oh my, you're right
03:38:31  <groundwater>i'll publish it now
03:40:05  <groundwater>grncdr https://github.com/jacobgroundwater/node-lib-cmdparse
03:40:14  <groundwater>it ain't fancy
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03:48:23  <groundwater>grncdr wonder if we can just wrap this http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/libbash.git;a=summary
03:52:17  <grncdr>I found that, but I need pure-js
03:52:30  <grncdr>must run in browser
03:54:02  <grncdr>Hi meats!
03:54:08  <kid_icarus>hi grncdr
03:54:52  <groundwater>grncdr ahh, then time to re-implement libbash in js :D
03:55:16  <grncdr>that's my general (way too much work and kind of silly) plan
03:56:00  <groundwater>grncdr: maybe we can build up the functionality slowly
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03:56:16  <groundwater>nsh has a few things like tab-complete
03:56:29  <groundwater>but no job control, no pipes, no redirection
03:56:35  <grncdr>I should write a bit of a roadmap
03:56:47  <grncdr>I started on this stuff because I wanted to improve bashful
03:57:25  <grncdr>so my plan was write parser, then rewrite bashful (or something like it) to be fronted by the new parser
03:57:57  <grncdr>add features to the shell gradually, so like things that aren't supported would be parsed and generate errors
03:58:11  <grncdr>like "sorry we don't support process substitution yet"
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03:58:24  <grncdr>"implement it by forking $repo"
03:58:27  <grncdr>:)
03:58:54  <grncdr>the other thing is I want to maintain bashfuls I/O independence
03:59:10  <grncdr>so that you can run a shell in the browser backed by levelfs or something
03:59:17  <groundwater>the other problem, which i ran into, is true job-control in the OS, and signal handling
03:59:22  <groundwater>ugh it's so fucking complicated
03:59:50  <grncdr>it sounds that way… I honestly haven't looked that closely but I was under the impression that bashful supported at least background jobs
04:00:05  <grncdr>what were the issues you ran into with job control?
04:00:20  <groundwater>hmm.. i should try it again, but last i tried bashful chocked when running something like vim
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04:01:52  <grncdr>ah, that's probably more to do with the terminal emulation
04:02:06  <grncdr>there is pts.js for node that helps with that
04:02:41  <grncdr>it gives you a proper dup'ed tty
04:02:45  <groundwater>grncdr: bashful just needs to stop consuming stdin when a child process is running
04:03:05  <groundwater>and resume the stream when the child exits
04:03:08  <groundwater>that's all nsh does
04:03:31  <groundwater>the *proper* way would be by using foreground/background process groups, but node doesn't support that yet
04:04:29  <grncdr>groundwater: have you seen this example before? https://github.com/grncdr/bashful/blob/fixeroo2/example/pts.js
04:04:45  <grncdr>(and I don't blame you if you haven't being it's in a poorly named branch of my fork of bashful...)
04:05:30  <groundwater>grncdr: interesting approach
04:05:39  <grncdr>also, I don't know enough about real shells to know what "foreground/background process groups" means :\
04:05:59  <grncdr>or whether it would be portable to windows
04:06:05  <grncdr>that's requirement #2
04:06:21  <groundwater>grncdr *sigh* windows
04:06:31  <grncdr>like, the whole reason for me to ever implement any of this stuff and not just use bash is so it can run everywhere without any work
04:07:05  <groundwater>grncdr: here is my test for a shell, 'start the shell, start the shell within the shell, start vim, then back out cleanly'
04:07:14  <groundwater>at the time, bashful didn't pass, but it may now
04:07:29  <grncdr>it would be worth testing with the pts.js example there
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04:08:27  <grncdr>my test was start the shell, run interactive command (repl session), run non-interactive command, check exit codes and terminal behaviour doesn't get all messed up
04:08:51  <grncdr>I don't know if I ever tried vim though, so it may not actually work all that well
04:09:00  <groundwater>it sounds like it might work
04:09:13  <groundwater>i starred your fork
04:09:17  <grncdr>wee!
04:09:33  <groundwater>nsh is a stop gap, i fully intend someone smarter the write a proper shell at some point
04:09:42  <groundwater>hopefully you're that person!
04:09:43  <groundwater>haha
04:17:53  <dominictarr>groundwater, have you looked at substack's bashful?
04:19:32  <groundwater>dominictarr: yah, that's what grncdr is working with now
04:19:59  <groundwater>he's got a fork that handles child interactive child processes
04:20:24  <grncdr>it's reallly old and out of date though!
04:21:02  <substack>I'm just going to use grncdr's thing in bashful since it looks much more feature-complete
04:21:30  <grncdr>except it doesn't work ;)
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04:28:44  <groundwater>grncdr: is there a formal way to approach parsing grammars?
04:29:13  <groundwater>i wonder if a js shell can be written by defining the grammar formally
04:29:24  <groundwater>i am *very* outside my area of expertise here, so i may be talking BS
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04:32:26  <grncdr>well, there is a formal definition of the parsing and behaviour of posix shells, but not bash per se
04:32:56  <grncdr>shells require the ability to recursively parse variable expansions though
04:33:14  <groundwater>grncdr sounds gross
04:33:15  <groundwater>lol
04:33:29  <grncdr>and the *behaviour* is very tied up in the formal descriptions of the parsing process
04:33:44  <grncdr>it's honestly not all that bad, just dry and boring
04:34:17  <grncdr>the other thing is that every known shell is some mostly intersecting set of features vs. POSIX
04:35:13  <grncdr>and the fact that I want all this stuff to work in JS (and independent of any I/O) has made it difficult to jst rip the grammar definition from an existing shell
04:35:23  <grncdr>I mean, bash doesn't have a formal grammar
04:35:25  <grncdr>so that's fun
04:35:41  <groundwater>grncdr guess you have the opportunity to put your own spin on things
04:36:02  <grncdr>yeah, I've got something of a plan in mind… but this stuff is so time consuming
04:36:16  <grncdr>and I have not been particularly focused for the last month or so
04:36:23  <groundwater>what you working on mostly?
04:36:44  <grncdr>non-node related contracting/consulting work
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04:36:59  <groundwater>grncdr aha, gotta pay them bills?
04:37:21  <grncdr>yeah, it also complicates things that I haven't had a fixed address for 6 months
04:37:31  <grncdr>and I can't legally work in the states afaik
04:37:49  <grncdr>but I hate being in Canada
04:37:54  <grncdr>so things are complicated ;)
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05:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 8]
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05:34:05  <pfraze>is https://www.linode.com/ down?
05:34:25  <kid_icarus>pfraze: not for me
05:34:40  <pfraze>huh, it's back
05:34:45  <pfraze>kid_icarus: thx
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08:12:16  <dominictarr>this is really weird
08:12:32  <dominictarr>curl can't resolve github, but the browser can...
08:15:06  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 166.78.104.64(dev-ie10-2)
08:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 8]
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10:58:29  <robertkowalski>isaacs: github says "you do not have admin right on npm" when i want to transfer my repos to it.
10:58:48  <robertkowalski>isaacs: idea: transfer it to you first and you then transfer ist to npm?
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14:15:07  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 166.78.104.64(dev-ie10-2)
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17:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 17]
18:23:09  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [free: 405]
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18:29:39  <jesusabdullah>I just want to point out something
18:29:46  <jesusabdullah>for someone that was going to step away from node dev
18:29:51  <jesusabdullah>ben is still really really involved
18:29:55  <jesusabdullah>did he change his mind?
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19:15:14  <chapel>jesusabdullah: still doing stuff in node core?
19:16:20  <jesusabdullah>chapel: yeah, leastways all over dem issues
19:16:39  <jesusabdullah>I Actually Follow joyent/node so I get all the issue threads
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19:19:36  <chapel>maybe his leaving was a rash decision, and he is just doing stuff as he feels like it
19:22:40  <grncdr>that seems probable to me
19:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 86]
19:24:09  <chapel>I know when I have chose to leave something I enjoyed for whatever reason, I sometimes want to go back, specially if its something I've been doing, or where I've been for a long while
19:24:58  <grncdr>I was just going through old projects today and it was funnysad how much old work stuff I have on my computer
19:25:22  <grncdr>and going through them I feel like "man I wish I'd had time to finish that"
19:26:40  <grncdr>like what the hell? I was just doing a job and I'm no longer employed there, but if I didn't have anything else to do I'd totally want to go back to some of those projects
19:27:48  <grncdr>and that's from a couple of years ago, if you just up and quit something that was your main focus for a long time, without having something else to replace it right away, I think it's pretty normal that you'd just fall back into your old habits
19:28:56  <grncdr>anyways, I'm just procrastinating because I'm pretty sure my shell parser is a dead end
19:29:12  <chapel>grncdr: I know what you mean
19:29:28  <chapel>I was looking at my old code earlier this year
19:29:39  <chapel>like old from years ago
19:29:48  <chapel>was interesting to go through it
19:30:02  <chapel>its like reading something you wrote (words) when you were a kid
19:30:08  <chapel>feels like a different person sometimes
19:30:25  <chapel>but then you're like, oh I could do this, oh and fix that, add that, and it all comes back
19:30:45  <grncdr>haha yeah
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19:31:42  <grncdr>man nested backticks in shell code though
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19:32:20  <grncdr>totally wrecks my plans to use PEG, because I'm pretty sure there's no way to express that properly
19:32:31  <chapel>grncdr: are you learning anything working on that?
19:32:52  <grncdr>that shell is ridiculous?
19:33:20  <chapel>haha
19:33:33  <grncdr>lol, actually I'm kind of learning some stuff. at the least, it's more practice writing parsers for more complicated languages
19:33:35  <chapel>well I mean, like improving your skills, or knowledge
19:34:02  <chapel>sometimes I jump into a project not knowing how involved it really is, and learning a lot just to make progress
19:34:06  <chapel>best way to learn imo
19:34:12  <grncdr>oh for sure
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19:35:14  <grncdr>it's definitely giving me more insight into what the tradeoffs are for different approaches to writing parsers
19:35:37  <grncdr>like, PEG would be great if I was specifying the language
19:35:54  <grncdr>then I would just say "no, you may not have nested backticks, go away"
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19:37:43  <grncdr>it's also an interesting example of how the implementation technique influenced the design of the language
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19:38:22  <chapel>yeah, I haven't got into parsers or language design yet
19:38:26  <chapel>but its something I want to do
19:38:36  <chapel>more to learn than anything
19:38:46  <chapel>but it would be cool to have a project in mind to learn from
19:39:19  <grncdr>well, feel free to contribute to shell-parse! (and the eventual shell implementation)
19:39:33  <chapel>so is the idea to have a js based shell?
19:39:40  <chapel>well, node backed shell?
19:39:47  <grncdr>decoupled from I/O
19:40:01  <grncdr>like, bashful already does that, and I think it's super useful
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19:40:30  <grncdr>so I want to preserve that behaviour, but I also want to support all/most features of POSIX shells
19:41:20  <grncdr>I didn't like the idea of extending the existing parser in bashful a lot further so I started writing this parser
19:41:22  <chapel>guess I'm not sure the usecase
19:42:13  <grncdr>well, one use-case is to include a posix shell in npm so that "scripts" can utilize advanced shell features cross-platform with no external dependencies
19:42:36  <grncdr>another is running a unix-like shell environment in a browser
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19:42:50  <grncdr>like what http://shell.substack.net is
19:42:58  <grncdr>sorry wrong link
19:43:10  <grncdr>https://unix.substack.net
19:44:50  <grncdr>another one I've been thinking of is shared & distributed shell sessions
19:45:12  <grncdr>but mostly it's all just for fun :)
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20:15:08  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 166.78.104.64(dev-ie10-2)
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20:49:42  <mikolalysenko>man. the with statement is one of the most chaotic and insane language features ever added to a mainstream language
20:50:02  <mikolalysenko>it also makes static analysis of js unpredictable and "fun"
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21:00:47  <groundwater>mikolalysenko: with feels like a brief attempt to embrace the world of DLSs
21:02:39  <mikolalysenko>so in this control-flow module I am working on, about 50% of the code is related to handling with statements properly
21:03:41  <pfraze>groundwater: yup http://jsperf.com/how-slow-is-with-really
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21:04:33  <mikolalysenko>you know that with code is also troublesome for a few other reasons
21:04:50  <mikolalysenko>for example "i" gets initialized as a property of "stuff"
21:07:22  <mikolalysenko>err, wait. no it doesn't
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21:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 29]
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23:19:53  <ogd>https://github.com/maxogden/install-nginx-on-ubuntu :D
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23:23:10  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 25]
23:25:02  <defunctzombie_>ogd: ?
23:25:18  <ogd>defunctzombie_: it is a node module
23:25:23  <defunctzombie_>I see that
23:25:34  <defunctzombie_>why is it a node module? hahahaha
23:25:47  <ogd>defunctzombie_: how else would you do it
23:25:53  <defunctzombie_>haha
23:26:00  <defunctzombie_>guess depends on your setup
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