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00:00:35  <floatdrop>nfroidure does some one answers you about that?
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00:01:25  <hughsk>nfroidure, floatdrop: streams are just javascript - so yeah, they're actually sync by default
00:04:05  <nfroidure>hughsk, oki, my feeling was right
00:04:38  <nfroidure>floatdrop, sorry, i told i'll have a look but i'm very busy with debugging/porting my grunt tasks.
00:04:52  <nfroidure>gulp-watch is still really obscure for me at the moment
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00:05:28  <floatdrop>nfroidure what i am sure about - is that if you emit data event on stream - it will execute in current frame
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00:06:25  <nfroidure>floatdrop, yep, if you attach a data event to a stream, it switch to flow mode and datas gets consumed
00:07:34  <floatdrop>nfroidure where I can read about it (besides nodejs docs)? seems it causes problems in gulp-plumber
00:07:39  <nfroidure>i think we should add a warning to the wiki to ask to avoid adding datas events except in a process.nextTick call
00:08:54  <nfroidure>The fact is that the gulp pipeline must be set in the same tick and gets consumed only when piped to a consumer (gulp.dest or a dummy on('data'))
00:12:21  <nfroidure>floatdrop, it may be related to this commit : https://github.com/gulpjs/gulp/commit/c29cb15680d97a0c2a54712508e7024c6baa5dde
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00:20:05  <ogd>trevnorris: hey i edited my previous gist to explain the goal of the proxy thing a little more https://gist.github.com/maxogden/8312464
00:20:13  <ogd>trevnorris: have you ever used nginx proxy_pass before?
00:20:44  <trevnorris>ogd: nope. but read the docs. seems straight forward.
00:22:31  <ogd>trevnorris: yea its pretty simple. the fastest thing i've seen so far that does it in node is https://github.com/mikeal/hostproxy/blob/master/index.js
00:23:16  <ogd>trevnorris: but i really do think that if node can optimize the simple tcp host proxy use case it would benefit a lot of users
00:24:11  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.72.32 (free10)
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00:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 22]
00:28:30  <trevnorris>ogd: ok. so basics are, based on host send data somewhere else?
00:30:34  <ogd>trevnorris: yep thats it
00:33:26  <nfroidure>floatdrop, you should look at how event-stream work, it may listen for data event. I think i'ts better to extend Node stream than using this lib
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00:50:02  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.72.69 (free7), 50.57.174.117 (dev2), 166.78.104.64 (dev-ie10-2)
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01:42:00  <Raynos>whats the best place to buy bitcoin
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01:57:54  <ogd>Raynos: coinbase
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01:59:02  <Raynos>cool
01:59:05  <Raynos>gonna get me some btc
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02:25:17  <ogd>contrahax: HAHAHAHA
02:25:24  <contrahax>ogd did you see my remix
02:25:31  <contrahax>hes threatening to sue me for remixing his video
02:25:35  <ogd>contrahax: so awesome
02:26:09  <ogd>contrahax: the remix does such a good job of making him sound like an idiot hahaha
02:27:30  <contrahax>ogd https://www.dropbox.com/s/7waoh266d9zk4s4/nerdjs.mp4
02:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 51]
02:28:00  <ogd>hahahaha
02:29:08  <ogd>contrahax: this makes me think that perhaps these videos were originally serious and that he wasnt trolling
02:29:16  <contrahax>hes totally serious
02:29:24  <contrahax>he lives in phoenix and people have had a lot of bad encounters with him
02:29:28  <ogd>contrahax: i never considered that to be a possibility
02:29:33  <ogd>haha
02:29:34  <contrahax>monteslu and phated have met him before
02:29:53  <monteslu>unfortunately
02:30:00  <ogd>hahaha the drop in that last one hahahah
02:30:05  <phated>he said that ryah created node as a scam
02:31:18  <ogd>im pretty sure he isnt crediting the node.js trademark correctly or something in his original video
02:32:02  <contrahax>node is only non-blocking because it was designed to never write to the hard drive
02:32:09  <ogd>lol
02:32:25  <ogd>People Who Drink Raw Milk Are Stupid
02:32:35  <ogd>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBvzChkUi94
02:32:46  <dominictarr>node is just a ponzi scheme
02:33:03  <monteslu>you need to put a webserver in front of it too if you want to serve stuff up apparently
02:33:08  <dominictarr>but with modules
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02:33:49  <contrahax>node has double the vulnerabilities
02:34:04  <ogd>The 4 Types Of Cloud
02:35:28  <contrahax>wide range of expertise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36MF5jX4fqc
02:36:06  <ogd>hahaha
02:36:32  <ogd>HI CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MUCH YOU PAID FOR YOU SAC PLEASE
02:36:33  <LOUDBOT>I HATE LINUX VENDORS MORE THAN I EVER HAVE BEFORE
02:37:01  <monteslu>he also invented CDNs, then put them in a box, then put them in the cloud: http://www.cdninabox.com/
02:37:04  <contrahax>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNn9J-ob1aU spray painting your car isnt a sign of intelligence
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02:56:14  <trevnorris>ogd: that straight tcp implementation, even using the slow array slice crap, can handle ~100k req/sec. tiny payload through.
02:56:33  <trevnorris>ogd: then piping data though is simple enough
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02:57:20  <contrahax>ogd https://cloudup.com/cx1C1I4bEIX
02:57:42  <trevnorris>ogd: if it turns out this really is used that much I'll consider investing the time to make a linux native addon that after opening the fd's can use splice to pipe the data. that'll keep all data transfer in the kernel
02:58:32  <collypops>contrahax, haha
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03:08:19  <collypops>contrahax, I hope this streisands
03:09:39  <substack>ogd: https://github.com/substack/git-http-backend
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03:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 21]
03:33:31  <grncdr>substack: neat
03:35:04  <substack>it's like pushover but can do side channel and isn't as clunky
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04:05:22  <prettyrobots>contrahax: I missed it. Who is threatening to sue you?
04:05:55  <prettyrobots>Downloading the reminx.
04:05:57  <prettyrobots>remix.
04:06:03  <contrahax>@BWOps
04:07:45  <prettyrobots>contrahax: What an unlikable fellow.
04:08:00  <contrahax>its interesting how stupid some people can be
04:08:45  <prettyrobots>contrahax: Download from Dropbox taking forever.
04:08:50  <prettyrobots>Where is the original?
04:08:52  <contrahax>you can stream it
04:09:38  <prettyrobots>contrahax: Yup, needed chrome.
04:10:34  <prettyrobots>contrahax: Where is the original?
04:10:55  <contrahax>prettyrobots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e1zzna-dNw
04:13:12  <chapel>contrahax: I enjoyed the remix, but wished it was more of the distorted remix of him talking
04:13:12  <chapel>then again, it would have been harder to hear how dumb he is
04:13:16  <contrahax>i barely even had to remix mine since its already so funny
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04:13:22  <chapel>yeah
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04:18:08  <prettyrobots>They're pushing you to use something that doesn't use the CGI standard, which is a bad thing.
04:18:29  <prettyrobots>Wow.
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04:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 23]
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04:48:32  <jjjohnny>alpha waves
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04:56:31  <Raynos>dominictarr: o/
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04:56:49  <Raynos>First hurdle is that buying bitcoin through coinbase without an american credit card takes _4 business days_
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04:58:27  <Raynos>dominictarr: by the time i get by bitcoin you'll probably be funded already
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05:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 260]
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05:36:31  <jjjohnny>Raynos: you can get btc on the street faster than that https://localbitcoins.com/
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06:03:48  <substack>py1hon: https://github.com/substack/git-http-backend
06:05:09  <prettyrobots>I need help with maxTickDepth.
06:05:22  <prettyrobots>I was calling nextTick because I thought it was a good thing.
06:05:37  <prettyrobots>Now I'm getting a warning, which is in turn causing me to blow the stack.
06:05:48  <dominictarr>prettyrobots, are you on 0.8 or 0.10?
06:05:54  <prettyrobots>0.10
06:06:30  <dominictarr>then just use setImmediate
06:06:37  <prettyrobots>I'm confused. I was hoping that nextTick would keep me from blowing the stack in highly callback-y situations.
06:06:51  <dominictarr>they changed it
06:07:02  <prettyrobots>dominictarr: Can you point me to something that would remove my dumb.
06:07:07  <prettyrobots>They changed it.
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06:07:16  <dominictarr>I used this is pull-stream https://github.com/dominictarr/pull-stream/blob/master/sinks.js#L3-L27
06:07:35  <dominictarr>it checks if the callback was sync, and iterates instead of recursing
06:08:02  <dominictarr>I think functional programmer call this a "trampoline" (don't know why)
06:08:05  <prettyrobots>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15349733/setimmediate-vs-nexttick
06:09:37  <prettyrobots>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc
06:10:00  <jjjohnny>nextTick should stay in node, but setImmediate is in the browsers
06:10:49  <jjjohnny>i mean, imo nextTick should stay, but it looks like they are taking it out
06:18:42  <substack>dominictarr: 42%
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06:23:10  <dominictarr>substack, ! awesome !
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06:25:04  <substack>dominictarr: what happens when it hits 100%?
06:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 40]
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06:30:11  <prettyrobots>substack: dominictarr rolls around in a bed of BTC.
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06:41:40  <dominictarr>substack, then I'll start working on the things in https://github.com/dominictarr/feedopensource/issues/4
06:41:48  <substack>cool
06:42:06  <substack>dominictarr: I meant more what happens flow-wise
06:42:23  <dominictarr>flow-wise?
06:42:26  <substack>does a new progress bar start up at 0?
06:42:31  <dominictarr>yes
06:42:47  <substack>cool
06:43:09  <dominictarr>I'll make a better widget that first shows funding progress, then work progress, then changes to a giant green tick
06:43:16  <substack>nice
06:43:44  <dominictarr>for the next iteration, you create a new wallet and fund into that.
06:43:51  <substack>how many iterations away is usage outside of feedopensource itself?
06:44:05  <prettyrobots>dominictarr: I really like what you're doing there.
06:44:28  <prettyrobots>dominictarr: Much more than the other things.
06:44:41  <prettyrobots>dominictarr: That is the dozens of Kickstarter clones.
06:45:01  <substack>as in something you can drop into a github readme.markdown and feedopensource will take care of listening to the blockchain
06:45:03  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.72.69(free7)
06:45:07  <substack>and rendering the progress ars
06:45:09  <dominictarr>substack, it'll still be rough, but I 'm hoping just one, but maybe good enough for the crazy early adopters.
06:45:09  <substack>*bars
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06:46:22  <dominictarr>substack, you can add a progress bar like I have by making a png at feedopensource.com/{wallet_id}/{target_btc}
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06:47:14  <substack>nice!
06:47:17  <dominictarr>so you can do that already, but you otherwise have to track the status of everything manually
06:47:37  <dominictarr>we had the idea when I was hanging out with ralphtheninja last year
06:47:51  <dominictarr>and he was pumping my brain full of bitcoin ideas
06:48:02  <dominictarr>https://github.com/ralphtheninja/btcprogress
06:48:03  <substack>do you make a new wallet for every iteration?
06:48:29  <substack>or is it just modulo target_btc?
06:48:37  <dominictarr>did it that way to make it really easy to track
06:48:51  <dominictarr>if it was modulo it would mean you couldn't change the target
06:49:04  <substack>true
06:49:13  <dominictarr>a new wallet is easy.
06:50:49  <prettyrobots>setImmediate.
06:51:25  <prettyrobots>Let this be the last impediment for my release.
06:51:44  <dominictarr>and the issues have a pointer back to the wallet inside them (and if you put it in the readme it's gonna be in the in the git history)
06:51:46  <prettyrobots>Someone needs to write an open source programmer's prayer.
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07:04:23  <Raynos>jjjohnny: that localbitcoins, is that like if I come over to your place with a couple of Gs of cash, you gonna transfer me some btc ?
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07:09:24  <dominictarr>Raynos, yeah, basically or a couple hundred.
07:09:49  <dominictarr>you could also meet in dark alley if you prefer
07:11:59  <ralphtheninja>hehe
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07:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 40]
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07:40:16  <ogd>dominictarr: i found your future elder likeness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x_hdtdgm5U&t=44m15s
07:40:33  <ogd>dominictarr: and mine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOqkT-vYA6E
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08:03:56  <groundwater>grncdr coffee shop hacking works for me
08:15:32  <grncdr>cool
08:15:51  <contrahax>ogd https://www.dropbox.com/s/ybgyvum9n77pvh6/nerdjs2.mp4
08:19:50  <grncdr>lol, for the first few seconds I was thinking: does he know he misspelled it?
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09:33:33  <dominictarr>rvagg, reading this: http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all#Chapter-The-MQ-Community (long, but interesting)
09:33:50  <dominictarr>one part reminded me of something you said recently:
09:34:15  <dominictarr>"by defining the road map, we in effect claimed territory, making it harder for others to participate. People do prefer to contribute to changes they believe were their idea. Writing down a list of things to do turns contribution into a chore rather than an opportunity."
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10:07:02  <rvagg>dominictarr: hah! that does sound like me.. I thought you were quoting me in fact
10:07:07  <rvagg>dominictarr: +1 to that attitude
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10:10:06  <rvagg>that's quality leadership IMO
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10:12:44  <dominictarr>Yeah, his c4 thing is rather like how level{up,down}is run except more ridged.
10:13:03  <dominictarr>but, I think that is okay, because they used a more chaotic approach early on
10:13:21  <dominictarr>I think you need that. You need to be a teenager before you become an adult.
10:13:43  <dominictarr>It's a fucking long read though. Need a C4 lite
10:14:50  <dominictarr>one other interesting rule they have is that every change is a pull request, even the maintainers, which mostly how level is (or completely?)
10:15:12  <dominictarr>sorry, they have a distinction between contributor and maintainer.
10:15:31  <dominictarr>a contributor makes a pull request, and a maintainer merges it.
10:16:15  <dominictarr>a maintainer doesn't write code (not in their capacity as maintainer at least, they can also be a contributor) instead a maintainer's job is to enforce process.
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10:34:51  <juliangruber>ogd: just found a classic metal song title: "Surprise! You're Dead!" :D
10:37:18  <dominictarr>HA: http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all#The-Mystic
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10:44:49  <dominictarr>"cute names are worth a thousand words"
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12:27:04  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 10)
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12:45:04  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.72.69(free7)
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15:07:47  <prettyrobots>"There are three main open source patterns. The first is the large firm dumping code to break the market for others. This is the Apache Foundation model." ~ LOL!
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17:00:35  <prettyrobots>dominictarr: "There are three main open source patterns. The first is the large firm dumping code to break the market for others. This is the Apache Foundation model." ~ LOL!
17:00:46  <prettyrobots>dominictarr: This is some good thinking in here.
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17:18:52  <dominictarr>prettyrobots, yeah, agree
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17:21:45  <prettyrobots>jgpelletier: read this http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all#Chapter-The-MQ-Community
17:22:03  <creationix>substack, I forgot you had a git publishing module too
17:22:11  <creationix>it appears to work fairly differently though
17:22:42  <creationix>oh wait, that's not a publisher, it's for cloning and pushing over http
17:24:20  <dominictarr>creationix, what do you think of this: http://feedopensource.com/
17:25:46  <creationix>dominictarr, neat. I would love to make a living on this kind of model
17:26:01  <creationix>but the people with real money probably won't use it
17:26:13  <creationix>which is the problem with bountysource, kickstarter and gittip
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17:28:57  <prettyrobots>Feeling a little emotional.
17:30:23  <prettyrobots>All AbstractLevelDOWN range tests are passing.
17:30:54  <prettyrobots>That `nextTick` versus `setImmediate` conundrum was evil.
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17:31:03  <jjjohnny>prettyrobots: w2g
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17:45:25  <dominictarr>creationix, "people with real money"? rich people?
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17:47:37  <creationix>dominictarr, developers funding other developers doesn't work
17:47:55  <creationix>because you then split the community into sources and leeches
17:48:08  <creationix>I can't pay others with the money that's payed to me *and* pay my bills
17:48:25  <creationix>there needs to be a source from people who don't write software, but do pay for it
17:48:33  <creationix>people with other jobs and money sources
17:48:59  <jjjohnny>if more companies let their programmers spend money on open source
17:49:09  <jjjohnny>programmers should be asking for budgets
17:49:18  <Raynos>creationix: not true
17:49:20  <hackygolucky>creationix: have you spoken with chad before about gittip?
17:49:29  <hackygolucky>creationix: one of the aims is to break it out of the programming community
17:49:37  <creationix>Raynos, I can't use my kickstarter funds to fund other kickstarters
17:49:42  <hackygolucky>he's been frustrated at how cornered it got.
17:49:45  <jjjohnny>fuck yr free lunches, give me 30K to spend
17:49:47  <creationix>the money is for me pay my bills while writing js-git
17:49:48  <Raynos>creationix: I'm an SF full time engineer with excess money and a 6 figure salary. There are a _lot_ of us. I'm an exception as I do a lot of open source
17:49:57  <Raynos>the rest of us have plenty of money to donate to other open source projects
17:50:24  <creationix>Raynos, there aren't as many of you as you think
17:50:31  <Raynos>I think there is
17:50:32  <hackygolucky>I currently have a friend living off of his gittip
17:50:38  <hackygolucky>working on open source full time.
17:50:40  <creationix>people in that category only gave me a few thousand total in both my fundraisers
17:50:41  <Raynos>there are way more full time engineers then prolific open source engineers
17:50:46  <creationix>but companies paid me over 30k
17:51:05  <Raynos>creationix: thats a seperate issue, dtarr is addressing that by asking for less money over smaller time periods which might work
17:51:17  <creationix>and I'm more popular than many open source developers and js-git was an above average interesting project
17:51:26  <Raynos>True.
17:51:36  <Raynos>Then its an issue of extracting money out of developers :(
17:51:42  <Raynos>because developers are really cheap
17:51:50  <Raynos>and want free tools, free software and free open source
17:51:51  <dominictarr>creationix, agree. yeah, I want something to break through into non developers
17:51:58  <creationix>my point is the real source of money is companies who use the software in their products
17:52:05  <hackygolucky>dominictarr: that's the same thing gittip is trying to do.
17:52:59  <creationix>and even with mozilla giving me a 25k grant, I've had to live on beans and rice for the last 6 months
17:53:18  <creationix>I've worker harder than most my salaried jobs and made a fraction of the money
17:53:31  <Raynos>:(
17:53:36  <hackygolucky>dominictarr: what does feedopensource solve that gittip doesn't?(I'm trying to understand, not thinking it is a bad idea)
17:53:46  <Raynos>creationix: can this be solved by doing 50/50 contracting / open source ?
17:53:47  <creationix>I'm not complaining. It's been a blast
17:53:50  <dominictarr>hackygolucky, yes, but we have very different approaches
17:53:59  <creationix>Raynos, I've been doing that lately with consulting work
17:54:13  <creationix>but it's terribly distracting and fragments my time and concentration
17:54:16  <dominictarr>hackygolucky, it's all about encouraging feedback between developers and clients.
17:54:28  <Raynos>hackygolucky: customer / developer interactions. gittip is just "here is money, do your thing" feedopensource is "here is money, I'm going to communicate and work with you to make your thing awesome because I will be a user of your thing"
17:54:39  <hackygolucky>ah.
17:54:41  <hackygolucky>Very nice.
17:54:41  <dominictarr>exactly!
17:55:07  <Raynos>gittip is like tipping, you did a cool thing, here is some money
17:55:07  <creationix>dominictarr, I like your idea, just sharing my experience
17:55:08  <creationix>I want this to work
17:55:11  <dominictarr>it's all about encouraging feedback. I want more feedback.
17:55:33  <jjjohnny>it will work los mejor
17:55:37  <dominictarr>creationix, agree. watching js-git get funded was one thing that made me think of this.
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17:55:52  <pfraze>lol
17:55:55  <dominictarr>gittip is like busking.
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17:56:13  <creationix>dominictarr, let me tell you though, crowdfunding is a terrible waterfall process
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17:56:33  <dominictarr>creationix, EXACTLY
17:56:39  <creationix>I spent most my time for weeks, almost months traveling around begging for money
17:56:53  <creationix>It's not sustainable
17:57:00  <creationix>sure was a fun experiment though!
17:57:10  <creationix>and now we have half of js-git
17:57:12  <creationix>:P
17:57:37  <jjjohnny>Portrait of an Artist as a Hacker
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17:57:45  <dominictarr>yes, and js-git is a relatively simple case, since you have a reference implementation already.
17:57:58  <creationix>dominictarr, sort-of. I have a protocol and file format
17:58:03  <creationix>the C code is nearly useless
17:58:12  <creationix>blocking I/O and memmapping all over the place
17:58:19  <dominictarr>sure, but it's not like you are inventing git
17:58:25  <creationix>the bulk of my time was inventing js paradigms
17:58:32  <dominictarr>you know exactly what it has to do.
17:58:47  <creationix>right, there was some guidance
17:59:07  <dominictarr>sure, and that is relatively rare situation to be in.
17:59:07  <creationix>but don't underestimate the difficulty in designing a programming environment with the kinds of constraints I have
17:59:15  <creationix>js-git is simply means to an end in a larger project that I am inventing
17:59:21  <Raynos>does anyone know a good example node web app like npm/npm-www or rvagg/node.ico
17:59:28  <dominictarr>sure, and this is the other thing - js-git is a programming tool
17:59:42  <dominictarr>open source has already created all the best programming tools
18:00:27  <creationix>dominictarr, chrome vs firefox is an interesting case
18:00:33  <dominictarr>it's not really a problem to apply open source to programming tools because you pay for opensource by contributing, and giving respect
18:00:41  <dominictarr>creationix, go on
18:01:07  <creationix>I mean, there are some paid people working on firefox, but it's a largly open project with a lot of volunteers
18:01:12  <creationix>chrome is a google tool to track user data
18:01:21  <creationix>it has a clear business model and lots of funding
18:01:33  <creationix>the quality and feature sets reflect this some
18:01:41  <creationix>and the pace of development
18:02:04  <creationix>open source is subject to being put on the back-burner whenever the developer has issues in their life
18:02:18  <creationix>but your day-job is more stable
18:02:32  <creationix>(though company politics or mistakes can kill that too)
18:02:55  <mikolalysenko>what about funding via grants?
18:03:01  <creationix>grants are nice
18:03:06  <mikolalysenko>(not that there is much money out there via this model)
18:03:08  <creationix>mozilla gave me a 25k grant for js-git
18:03:24  <creationix>but I'm not sure that is sustainable either
18:03:31  <mikolalysenko>grants work well for funding research, or at least no one has come up with a viable option
18:03:34  <dominictarr>yeah, that isn't gonna get 50,000 people building open source apps
18:03:38  <creationix>25k for 6-12 months of work isn't exactly a good salary
18:03:52  <mikolalysenko>maybe make a pitch to government or some generous billionaire
18:04:33  <dominictarr>also, the skills of seeking a grant are a serious skill that is completely different to most programmers
18:04:43  <dominictarr>to what most programmers have.
18:04:51  <creationix>dominictarr, yep
18:05:13  <dominictarr>sometimes, though, you work on a thing until it's cool and then someone dumps money in your lap / hires you to work on it
18:05:18  <dominictarr>that is the exception.
18:05:30  <creationix>ideally there would be a way where I could create software, it would be judged to find out what it's worth and I get paid it's fair value
18:05:54  <creationix>but software being open and sharable, nobody wants to be the one company that foots the bill when their competitors also benifit
18:05:59  <dominictarr>but still, this still pretty much applies to tools.
18:06:15  <mikolalysenko>same problem with basic research
18:06:21  <mikolalysenko>and it gets done using taxes + grants
18:06:26  <dominictarr>to sell something you need to be able to withhold it.
18:06:45  <creationix>right, my model is give away my work for free and hope people fund me so I can continue working
18:06:51  <creationix>it doesn't really work
18:06:59  <pfraze>is it fair to say the products that we're trying to support are niche software?
18:07:24  <mikolalysenko>if a product has broad consumer appeal you can just sell it to support yourself
18:07:31  <mikolalysenko>that works for things like videogames, books and movies
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18:07:54  <creationix>mikolalysenko, copy-protection is something we want to avoid
18:07:55  <pfraze>if it is niche, I think that informs the sales model
18:08:07  <dominictarr>open source is for developers, because developers can pay for it - not with money, but other ways
18:08:10  <mikolalysenko>but for basic pieces of infrastructure, like roads, internet, operating systems, etc. I think you need public funding
18:08:29  <pfraze>dominictarr "gift economy"
18:08:34  <dominictarr>it's rewarding to make open source, it's fun, but also reputationally
18:08:40  <dominictarr>pfraze, exactly.
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18:10:48  <mmalecki>SaaS!
18:11:45  <Domenic_>isaacs: https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/3059#issuecomment-32050388 has me confused; we can't use dev dependencies (like coffeescript) in prepublish>
18:11:46  <Domenic_>?
18:12:13  <jjjohnny>dominictarr: i am totally gonna turn feedopensource into a Software-as-a-Musical
18:12:32  <pfraze>jjjohnny, finally, somebody gives the people what they want
18:12:55  <jjjohnny>OR SHOULD I SAY A SONG AND A DANCE
18:12:56  <LOUDBOT>YOU SHOULD HAVE USED HFS+ FOR YOUR ROOT! IT DOESN'T DO CASE SENSITIVITY BY DEFAULT!
18:15:05  <jjjohnny>pfraze: is the dev community sifficient to support the development of comedies and dramas, and political farces?
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18:15:11  <jjjohnny>that
18:15:23  <jjjohnny>s my feedhenryobjective
18:15:42  <jjjohnny>i mean feedopensource
18:16:12  <jjjohnny>saassy
18:16:34  <pfraze>jjjohnny: you mean can the dev community handle all that saas?
18:17:30  <jjjohnny>pfraze: step 1: programmers recognize their strength
18:17:43  <mikolalysenko>the problem with basic infrastructure is you get a tragedy of the commons where it is against the interest of any individual to pay for it
18:17:48  <mikolalysenko>but collectively it does have value
18:17:55  <jjjohnny>step 2: they demands to be treated like advanced professionals, and be given budgets and less managerial overhead
18:18:13  <mikolalysenko>so the classical solution is to use a trusted third party or government to administer it and enforce a mutual contract
18:18:47  <jjjohnny>step 3: those lazy ass problem solvers get with the open source programs
18:19:08  <pfraze>"Get with the Program!" <-- the name of your musical
18:19:29  <pfraze>mikolalysenko, in a way, the apple store?
18:20:14  <pfraze>software has kind of had to bring its own rule-setters since prosecuting copyright theft doesnt work well on consumers
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18:21:29  <mikolalysenko>well, copy theft is a separate issue and not really relevant for these sorts of projects I am assuming
18:21:52  <pfraze>it's only relevant if you try to get paid-per-copy
18:22:05  <mikolalysenko>copy right applies to consumer level stuff
18:22:19  <mikolalysenko>but in business-to-business or infrastructure stuff it is kind of useless
18:22:32  <mikolalysenko>patents are maybe closer to the idea
18:22:35  <pfraze>b2b uses licenses pretty heavily, doesnt it?
18:22:42  <mikolalysenko>yeah, licenses and patents
18:22:59  <pfraze>are those b2b licenses not enforced via copyright law?
18:23:16  <mikolalysenko>but infrastructure stuff (like js-git, node, browserify, etc.) doesn't really qualify as a consumer level product
18:23:35  <mikolalysenko>you probably could use copyright to enforce it, but the legaly system around these things is much more complicated
18:23:49  <mikolalysenko>for example, big cad systems have licensing based on the number of seats, not number of copies
18:23:58  <mikolalysenko>which is the number of users you have concurrently running the system at once
18:24:04  <pfraze>yeah
18:24:05  <mikolalysenko>not the total number of installed copies
18:24:19  <pfraze>well about your point about mutual contract
18:24:41  <pfraze>and why I bring up the app(le) store - do you have to have an organization to enforce it?
18:24:57  <mikolalysenko>I think so, or at least to distribute funding initially
18:25:08  <pfraze>then you sort of have js-git's story with Mozilla
18:25:25  <mikolalysenko>actually I should say it may not really be necessary for a 3rd party/generous benefactor get involved
18:25:46  <mikolalysenko>but I have not really seen a situation where it works out well otherwise for infrastructure/b2b software
18:26:02  <mikolalysenko>for things with consumer applications though it is a different story, since you just sell it
18:26:22  <pfraze>I dont follow why you group infrastructure and b2b together
18:26:30  <pfraze>where does the b2b model break down?
18:26:33  <dominictarr>pfraze, for b2b the software is valuable enough to just use lawyers
18:26:41  <mikolalysenko>well, a lot of b2b products are kind of infrastructure level
18:26:43  <pfraze>dominictarr, right
18:27:04  <mikolalysenko>like operating systems were once (and still are to some extent) a b2b product
18:27:04  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 12)
18:27:19  <pfraze>mikolalysenko, ok, I see your point
18:27:32  <mikolalysenko>I think though that open source software though is a lot like research in many ways
18:27:33  <pfraze>I might still call those a kind of infrastructure
18:27:43  <pfraze>yeah
18:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 232]
18:28:04  <mikolalysenko>you get these diverse individuals working on projects they think are important that all collectively enhance the capabilities of the public at large
18:28:46  <mikolalysenko>but unlike research which has a structured system for dispensing funds and assessing the worthiness of projects, there isn't really any established funding for open source
18:29:11  <dominictarr>on the other hand, things like the appstore are terrible because you have zero control. but for a non programmer, it makes no difference because they can't use a command line anyway.
18:29:27  <mikolalysenko>you instead get a system that works kind of like corporate research, where companies that are sufficiently large (ie IBM, microsoft, google, etc.) can spend some chunk of their giant budget on supporting projects that are in their business interest
18:29:39  <mikolalysenko>like IBM's investment in linux or google's work on chrome/v8
18:29:42  <jjjohnny>pfraze: a curse upon yr next unit test for that suggestion
18:29:47  <pfraze>dominictarr, yeah
18:29:58  <pfraze>jjjohnny, haha, theyre all cursed anyway
18:30:16  <mikolalysenko>I actually think the current system for selling consumer level software works pretty well, though it is very competitive
18:30:19  <jjjohnny>lol
18:30:40  <mikolalysenko>but the situation for research funding/open source is much more precarious
18:31:43  <mikolalysenko>it might be better to maybe just make a big pool of money and have a public review process to award grants
18:31:53  <mikolalysenko>then people could just donate to it to fill it up
18:32:25  <mikolalysenko>though ensuring reviews are fair and unbiased is difficult, and administering something like that is a lot of work
18:32:52  <marcello3d>sounds like a nonprofit
18:33:16  <mikolalysenko>well, that is basically what open source software in this form is
18:33:19  <marcello3d>spend 40% on managing and getting more funds, 60% on what you're trying to accomplish
18:33:35  <mikolalysenko>yeah, not really a new idea by any means
18:34:26  <dominictarr>If you want to USE feedopensource, what sort of project would you have https://github.com/dominictarr/feedopensource/issues/17
18:35:02  <dominictarr>mikolalysenko, that way you get zero feedback
18:35:11  <dominictarr>which is the main thing I want.
18:35:48  <dominictarr>I don't really get much feedback at all.
18:36:34  <dominictarr>(there is actually a whole different idea lurking in here...)
18:36:54  <dominictarr>okay, it is my bed time. talk to you cats later.
18:37:10  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: I don't mean to put feedopensource down, I actually think it is a really ambitious and great idea
18:37:37  <mikolalysenko>anyway, good night
18:42:07  <dominictarr>mikolalysenko, of course, it's an idea that I have to attempt because otherwise I'll never know if it will actually work or not.
18:42:12  <dominictarr>night all!
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18:51:16  <creationix>Perhaps the reason I don't believe in gittip is because I don't get much
18:51:54  <creationix>and two of the top 3 earners are political activists who earn money by speaking out on social issues
18:57:07  <hackygolucky>creationix: that is a pretty new trend on gittip
18:57:47  <hackygolucky>and both of those activists very specifically promoted themselves to get those contributions.
18:57:59  <creationix>right, I hate begging for money
18:58:04  <creationix>I get 6/week
18:58:16  <creationix>from 2 people
19:00:04  <creationix>hackygolucky, though the drupal maintainer who quit his day job to work on drupal is a good story
19:01:14  <creationix>drupal is sure a whole lot more popular than js-git though
19:01:18  <hackygolucky>Eric holscher lives off his now.
19:01:27  <hackygolucky>He does Write the Docs.
19:02:50  <creationix>how much does he make?
19:03:01  <creationix>a couple hundred a week isn't enough for most places
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19:08:01  <mikolalysenko>I just realized I am recieving $1.50 per week on gittip
19:09:31  <grncdr>neat
19:09:33  <mikolalysenko>but I have no idea where that money is coming from
19:09:38  <grncdr>that's how it works ;)
19:10:08  <mikolalysenko>ah, I see
19:10:37  <grncdr>I think your point earlier re: tragedy of the commons effect is pretty important
19:11:21  <grncdr>like, there are projects that I want to work on because I think they'd be marginally useful to a wide audience
19:11:47  * fallsemojoined
19:11:51  <grncdr>but any individual user of X is not going to value it more than a $
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19:13:04  <hackygolucky>He lives on reduced income. I think he's at 1200/mo.
19:13:37  <mikolalysenko>I could probably live on 1200/mo
19:13:42  <mikolalysenko>though not in sf
19:13:45  <grncdr>indeed
19:14:01  <mikolalysenko>rent in madison right now is like 400/mo, and there is plenty of stuff to do for cheap
19:14:32  <mikolalysenko>plus I ride my bike most places, so no gas expenses...
19:14:52  <mikolalysenko>except for trips down to chicago, which are probably my main cash outflow right now
19:15:42  <grncdr>projects intended to enable other developers (I'm thinking things like js-git, or ndarray) are difficult for a said developers to put a value on until they have used them, but once you're already using something, it's difficult to then say "I should compensate the creator for the value I've already derived"
19:16:04  <hackygolucky>mikolalysenko: right. He's traveling right now
19:16:07  <hackygolucky>he was in pdx.
19:16:14  <hackygolucky>He's off to Thailand for a few months.
19:16:21  <creationix>yeah, I can't live on $1200/mo, not even here in rural Texas
19:16:25  <creationix>I have a house and three kids
19:16:31  <hackygolucky>creationix: right.
19:16:38  <substack>mikolalysenko: you can live on 1200/mo in oakland if you get housemates
19:17:04  <grncdr>I guess its sort of a shareware model
19:17:05  <creationix>substack, yep, years ago I lived in so-cal for around $500/month for a couple years
19:17:07  <substack>or much less if you can find the right people
19:17:15  <hackygolucky>the creator of gittip is an interesting fellow. He talks to people all the time about the idea of patronage and how we can help each other through it.
19:17:20  <creationix>lots of housemates, biking everywhere and eating with friends
19:17:35  <hackygolucky>I think encouraging that concept is great even if it isn't gittip you're contributing to.
19:17:43  <mikolalysenko>yeah, it is not a bad way to live until you have to settledown and start a family
19:17:53  <substack>I know some people in oakland and sf who don't even use money
19:18:00  <substack>and live in squats
19:18:21  <substack>and dumpster dive for food (which yields a lot of food)
19:18:30  <substack>it's all a continuum starting at 0
19:18:38  <substack>depending on how much effort you put into it
19:18:54  * hackygoluckynods
19:19:08  <creationix>substack, yep.
19:19:12  * peutetrequit (Quit: peutetre)
19:19:36  <creationix>But I have kids and they need a stable house to grow up in. I did at least move to one of the cheaper parts of the country
19:19:56  <creationix>you can get a nice house here for well under $2000/month
19:20:08  <hackygolucky>wut.
19:20:09  <substack>creationix: true, but that cheaper part of the country also means you need a car, which is another expense
19:20:11  <hackygolucky>that's.... pricey.
19:20:32  <grncdr>hackygolucky: where do you live?
19:20:33  <hackygolucky>I grew up in SC, and even now in a decent sized town you can get a mortgage for $700/mo
19:20:36  <substack>the break-even points change depending on circumstances
19:20:37  <creationix>hackygolucky, 5 bedrooms and 2 acres in a nice neighborhood. Mortgage is ~$1500
19:20:39  <hackygolucky>a new house.
19:20:55  <grncdr>interesting
19:21:11  <hackygolucky>grncdr: I'm in Portland now. Moved around a bit. Portland housing isn't cheap. None of the West coast is, really.
19:21:20  <grncdr>yeah I know
19:21:36  <grncdr>I'm Canadian and last place I lived for any period of time was Victoria, BC
19:21:38  <creationix>I had a hole-in-the-wall apartment in Palo Alto and rent was $2000/month
19:21:40  <hackygolucky>creationix: I grew up in a brand new house, 5 br, 2 ba with a big yard and a 2 car garage--house was 180,000
19:21:55  <mikolalysenko>I kind of like madison, it has decent public transportation (as far as us cities go), world class bike trails, and lots of nice places to go out
19:21:57  <grncdr>which is cheap compared to Vancouver, but expensive compared to most of the rest of the country
19:22:00  <hackygolucky>well, certainly the house wasn't new the entire time I was in it.
19:22:03  <creationix>hackygolucky, oh wait, my mortgage is closer to $1000/month. The house was $150k total
19:22:12  * creationixcan't do math sometimes
19:22:14  <hackygolucky>creationix: ah! that sounds better.
19:22:28  <hackygolucky>MY mortgage isn't $2000, heh.
19:22:36  <hackygolucky>that's a lot of dollars.
19:22:59  <hackygolucky>creationix: also, Palo Alto=== oof.
19:23:22  <creationix>Yep, I first moved to SunnyVale and had a nice smallish house for about the same price
19:23:54  <hackygolucky>substack: cars always catch me off guard as one of many expenses of living in a smaller city. I thought NYC was crazy expensive until I actually lived there.
19:24:18  <hackygolucky>Outside of rent, it was very affordable if you chose a frugal lifestyle. Still had a blast.
19:24:34  <hackygolucky>my rent was 1500/mo in the East Village.
19:25:00  <grncdr>hm, so I liked the thing that substack did that divided up a gittip budget based on whose modules you were using, I feel like you could do something that fairly paid out the profits from a consumer application using that
19:25:21  <hackygolucky>grncdr: hrm, interesting.
19:26:38  <grncdr>I don't remember the name off the top of my head, and it obviously relies on using npm, but it's a neat idea
19:27:16  <isaacs>Domenic_: why can't you use devdeps in prepublish? npm does
19:27:26  <isaacs>Domenic_: npm uses ronn in prepublish to generate docs
19:27:50  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [developer: 25, free: 1445]
19:27:51  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 80]
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19:30:04  <substack>grncdr: https://gist.github.com/substack/7780759
19:31:02  <grncdr>right that was it
19:32:53  <grncdr>like, if you had a good name for that kind of funding you and created a badge or something that app devs could put on their apps
19:33:08  <grncdr>it's a concept that you could get across to end-users
19:33:13  <grncdr>"fair trade apps" or sth
19:33:35  <grncdr>"Oh I prefer to buy fair-trade apps"
19:35:09  <grncdr>I don't know, maybe that's too kooky
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19:42:46  <hackygolucky>grncdr: I think having some sort of reminder that I can contribute to people are working hard on code I'm using is nice.
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19:43:43  <grncdr>hackygolucky: I should start putting this at the top of my modules:
19:44:03  <grncdr>console.warning("Enjoying this module? Please consider tipping me on Gittip")
19:44:10  <grncdr>I'm sure it would go real well
19:44:11  <grncdr>:P
19:44:31  <hackygolucky>hah. Well, activists have a link on their blogs.
19:44:34  <hackygolucky>Is that so different?
19:44:37  <yorick>grncdr: if(Math.random()<0.01)
19:44:41  <hackygolucky>How are you contributing to your community?
19:44:47  <hackygolucky>you're contributing code.
19:44:49  * hackygoluckyshrugs
19:45:35  <grncdr>yorick: no way, I guess i'd prefix it with __filename + "…"
19:45:41  <grncdr>then have a source comment:
19:45:58  <grncdr> // obnoxious eh? please donate
19:47:28  <grncdr>seriously though, it's a terrible idea and if somebody did that I would probably fork-and-republish their modules
19:48:22  <marcello3d>where is the current model broken? what scenario are you trying to fix?
19:49:53  <grncdr>specifically the situation where programmers produce a lot of indirect value for other programmers/software companies and aren't compensated
19:50:32  <grncdr>so library authors, infrastructure authors, also things like documentation contributions etc
19:50:47  * xkochanged nick to oky
19:50:51  <yorick>grncdr: put it in "the above copyright notice shall be retained"
19:51:11  <yorick>grncdr: also maybe have a flag that disables it
19:51:12  <grncdr>creationix and js-git being the concrete example
19:52:49  <creationix>marcello3d, I could sell js-git to a company or go work for one of the many online ide startups
19:52:52  <grncdr>marcello3d: to be super clear, I'm not actually invested in fixing it all that much, I just like thinking about different possibilities
19:52:59  <creationix>but then they alone would benifit from my code and it would be closed
19:53:11  <creationix>only by staying independent do I create the most value
19:53:22  <creationix>but the irony is that by creating more value, I get less pay
19:53:51  <grncdr>marcello3d: the other instigator for this discussion (today) is dominictarrs new feedopensource things
19:53:56  <grncdr>*thing
19:54:02  <creationix>I spend months going around to all the companies that would benefit the most from my project and talking to them.
19:54:13  <creationix>it was very educational
19:54:38  <marcello3d>so there's no company willing to sponsor the project?
19:54:38  <creationix>I had some managers flat out tell me that my model would never work till they died out / retired
19:54:40  <grncdr>creationix: have you summarized what you learned from that somewhere?
19:55:06  <grncdr>like, I think there was a blog post or gist, but I don't remember for sure
19:55:07  <creationix>my model is basically that all the interested companies who would benifit from my code would share the cost and then all have access to it because it's open
19:55:14  <hackygolucky>creationix: yeah, that sounds like a pretty great/interesting discussion to hear about.
19:55:45  <creationix>but the problem is I want to keep it open
19:55:59  <creationix>most companies aren't willing to pay for something that a potential competitor could use for free
19:56:12  <marcello3d>even the googles/yahoos of the world?
19:56:13  <creationix>they would rather pay 10x more to have it built in house where they have exclusive ownership
19:56:21  <grncdr>^^
19:56:26  <creationix>yep, google didn't give me a dime and they benifit the most
19:56:30  <marcello3d>or github?
19:56:33  <marcello3d>interesting
19:56:39  <creationix>same with github, flat out refused
19:56:48  <creationix>only mozilla and adobe donated
19:56:53  <creationix>mozilla doesn't even need it
19:56:59  <creationix>they just like sponsoring js in general
19:57:09  <marcello3d>sure. well they have the whole firefox os thing, I could see them wanting it
19:57:29  <creationix>adobe donated $5k because several employees begged them to and brackets could use it
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19:57:55  <creationix>yeah, if firefoxos ever comes to a laptop form factor, they would benifit the same way that chromeos does
19:58:15  <grncdr>creationix: they might even benefit on tablets and such
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19:58:34  <grncdr>GUI interfaces to js-git would be possible, and maybe broadly useful
19:58:41  <grncdr>but I digress...
19:59:29  <creationix>grncdr, yeah, tablets too. I use js-git on my android tablet all the time
19:59:35  <creationix>paired with a bluetooth keyboard
19:59:42  <creationix>tedit.creationix.com runs great on android chrome
20:00:23  <grncdr>right
20:00:24  <marcello3d>ok so the alternative is you just stop working on it...
20:01:41  <creationix>yeah, I don't like giving up
20:02:04  <marcello3d>so maybe that's part of the problem, from a business perspective, these companies see you continuing whether they sponsor you or not, so they win
20:02:48  <grncdr>marcello3d: I don't think he really has the leverage to expect benefits from withholding his time though
20:03:18  <grncdr>I mean, these companies would benefit, but it's not like creationix's work is vital to their plans
20:03:21  <grncdr>(unless it is)
20:03:38  <marcello3d>right, but if it's not vital to any business with money, maybe it's not a project that should be made right now
20:03:57  <creationix>the problem is companies will just built whatever they need inhouse
20:04:00  <creationix>even if it's more expensive
20:04:04  <marcello3d>or maybe it's just a marketing problem. maybe you need a different angle
20:04:09  <grncdr>right so that's capitalism in a nutshell ;)
20:04:24  <creationix>I hate the idea of "competition"
20:04:29  <creationix>it ruins so much
20:05:13  <marcello3d>I dunno, I think git is complicated enough that they'd just work around rather than build it
20:05:41  * marcello3dquit (Remote host closed the connection)
20:05:56  <grncdr>hm, I wonder if that was intentional?
20:06:05  * marcello3djoined
20:06:09  <grncdr>wb
20:06:16  <creationix>git core is incredibly simple
20:06:22  <creationix>I could have made that part in a day
20:06:37  <creationix>what's so much work is building better workflows
20:06:57  <creationix>js-git is so much more than just implementing git
20:07:11  <creationix>(and so much less, I'm not touching the high-level interfaces)
20:08:00  <grncdr>creationix: so I know you've been punting around the idea of starting a product company
20:08:49  <grncdr>are there specific products that js-git enables that you think would appeal to a broad user base?
20:09:13  <creationix>grncdr, yes
20:09:23  <creationix>tedit is the start of one such product
20:09:39  <creationix>as is the git-publishing system I launched today
20:10:06  <creationix>they enable all sorts of extremely efficient and accessible development workflows.
20:10:15  <creationix>but how to make money from then is the tricky part for me
20:10:44  <creationix>technically the platform is the holy grail of web development. It's amazing
20:11:03  <marcello3d>get VC
20:11:04  <creationix>it works online, it works offline, it works on any system that has a browser (including tablets and chromebooks)
20:11:25  <creationix>and there are no pesky things like makefiles or build steps. It's a different paradigm and more powerful
20:11:38  <creationix>I doubt I could get VC
20:11:55  <creationix>though if I could and they weren't jerks to my customers, then that would be awesome
20:12:17  <marcello3d>well
20:12:22  <marcello3d>my only recommendation is don't work for free
20:12:32  <creationix>I can't work for free, I have bills to pay
20:12:35  <marcello3d>or cheap
20:12:47  <creationix>I'm literally down to a months worth of money and then I got nothing
20:13:04  <creationix>I do tend to work for cheap and I'm trying to fix that
20:13:18  <creationix>I grew up poor so even charging $100/hour feels so wrong to me
20:13:27  <creationix>but that's dirt cheap for the kind of consulting I do
20:13:37  <marcello3d>or just take a break, work on other stuff, and come back to it, nothing wrong with that---that's what I do with my side projects
20:14:34  <creationix>my plan is to work as long as I can, and when I can't, I get real work
20:14:39  <creationix>I'm just trying to avoid that
20:15:48  <ogd>creationix: you should apply here and tell them i referred you http://www.knightfoundation.org/funding-initiatives/knight-prototype-fund/
20:15:49  <marcello3d>does there exist a job where you use/work on jsgit as part of the project, but keep it open?
20:16:13  <creationix>possibly. But js-git is nearly done for what I need
20:16:20  <creationix>next I need to work on my products
20:16:30  <ogd>creationix: if you can link it to a cause like education it will hold up stronger in the selection process
20:16:40  <ogd>creationix: or better yet tech literacy/digital divide issues
20:17:00  <marcello3d>yea, you could go the non-profit/academic route
20:17:00  <creationix>yep, I've been trying that angle. It works great with individual developers, but companies don't care
20:17:17  <creationix>ogd, you saw the text on my kickstarter right?
20:17:30  <ogd>creationix: i vaguely remember
20:18:07  <creationix>ogd, basically, it was all about making programming accessible to more people (especially kids) and to improve education
20:19:40  <ogd>creationix: yea that sounds like the right angle for knight, i'd give it a shot
20:19:48  <marcello3d>the knight fellowship thing sounds familiar...do they work with journalists?
20:19:50  <ogd>creationix: i'd be happy to review your proposal before you submit too
20:19:57  <marcello3d>I remember working with some of them at the d.school
20:19:59  <creationix>oh right, I meant to talk to knight
20:19:59  <ogd>marcello3d: yep but they also funded me to work on http://dat-data.com/
20:20:15  <creationix>ogd, I have no idea where to start with that. I'm an engineer
20:20:26  <ogd>creationix: did you see the link i sent up above?
20:20:40  <creationix>ogd, no, missed it, thanks
20:21:14  <marcello3d>that sounds like a good fit based on their description and yours
20:21:34  <ogd>creationix: another recommendation would be to talk to http://www.kano.me/, i can intro you if you want they are friends of mine
20:21:53  <marcello3d>ooh I remember kano. they had a really good kickstarter
20:22:09  <creationix>working on kano would be awesome
20:22:48  <ogd>they sponsored the nodeschool event i did in london before they did their kickstarter, one of the guys there is a big fan of node
20:23:11  <creationix>ogd, could you please intro me. my email is public on my github if you need it
20:23:12  <marcello3d>it runs node right? some kind of simple js ide?
20:23:31  <ogd>creationix: sure thing
20:23:50  <ogd>creationix: also definitely follow up on the knight prototype fund application
20:23:53  <creationix>Also I worked at cloud9ide for a year, so I've some experience with making IDEs
20:24:28  <grncdr>whoa kano looks rad, I hadn't seen it before
20:24:48  <marcello3d>creationix: curious, what'd you think? why'd you leave?
20:25:06  <creationix>marcello3d, they downsized. vc money fell through
20:25:15  <marcello3d>shitty :(
20:25:19  <creationix>also I didn't like the idea of an ide that only worked when you were online
20:25:24  <creationix>I have terrible connectivity and travel a lot
20:25:28  <marcello3d>yea. that's kind of a broken model
20:25:38  <creationix>one of the main requirements of my js-git stuff is offline ability
20:25:43  <marcello3d>sure
20:26:45  <marcello3d>it also feels a bit overly complex, I haven't done anything serious in it, thoguh
20:27:11  <creationix>ogd, on the knight stuff, do they expect you to work full-time for the 6 months?
20:27:20  <creationix>35k isn't much for 6 months salary
20:27:37  <creationix>(I would know, I just did that with js-git)
20:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 4, free: 28]
20:28:39  <ogd>creationix: they dont demand much, just that you have something to show or learn from at the end of the 6 months
20:28:48  <marcello3d>grants usually don't come with an explicit hourly expectation
20:30:01  <ogd>creationix: over the last 4 years ive alternated one year at a for-profit, on year at a non-profit, so this year i could afford the pay cut since i made more last year
20:31:23  <creationix>ogd, yep. I did non-profit last year and I'm trying to do it again. That's the hard part.
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21:14:26  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: what is jsx?
21:14:35  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: https://github.com/CondeNast/JSXHint
21:17:20  <grncdr>isn't JSX the React.js JavaScript + XML language thing?
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21:17:32  <grncdr>let's you write html literals inline with javascript
21:18:08  <Raynos>:D
21:18:11  <Raynos>yes that
21:18:44  <jesusabdullah>ahh
21:18:47  <jesusabdullah>I see
21:18:54  <Raynos>xml in your js.
21:19:01  <jesusabdullah>I'll xml YOUR js
21:19:04  <Raynos>except it compiles down to react.DOM method calls
21:22:16  <grncdr>better than writing JS in XML I guess ;P
21:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 1]
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21:39:10  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: it's for react stuff - we were evaluating that for a bit and todd wrote that module
21:39:32  <thlorenz>we ended up not using react though
21:39:41  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: aha
21:39:44  <Raynos>thlorenz: what do you use instead of react ?
21:39:55  <Raynos>inhouse framework on top of backbone? :D
21:40:14  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: you're comin' tonight? I have a talk proposal for mountainwest I'm mulling over, I think you'd have a good perspective
21:40:24  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: at least some apps here are using ember
21:40:35  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: browserify stuff is of course all over
21:40:54  <Raynos>jesusabdullah: are you at conde nast ?
21:40:59  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: Yeah
21:41:01  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: yep, I'm coming
21:41:03  <Raynos>cool.
21:41:09  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: word
21:41:12  <thlorenz>just gotta finish the domain/cluster stuff I started
21:41:21  <jesusabdullah>right on
21:41:43  <thlorenz>it's really cool, just kind of hard to pass the stuff around since it's forking all over the place
21:42:06  <jesusabdullah>uhuh
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21:57:34  <marcello3d>has anyone here built a large reactive-style ui/frontend and gotten burned by it?
21:57:54  <grncdr>marcello3d: define large?
21:58:02  <marcello3d>I've been playing around with ractive.js for some frontend tools, and it makes easy stuff really easy, but I'm worried about more complex use cases
21:58:17  <grncdr>ah, I tried ractive and didn't like it tbh
21:58:20  <jesusabdullah>Domenic_: are you coming to houston hall 2nite?
21:58:22  <Raynos>marcello3d: yes
21:58:29  <Raynos>I went full FRP with one app and just did it wrong
21:58:35  <marcello3d>something like gmail or google docs I would consider large
21:58:44  <grncdr>yeah I haven't done anything that big before
21:58:46  <marcello3d>where it's more application and less content focused
21:59:00  <Raynos>my mistake with FRP was i modelled the data wrong
21:59:11  <marcello3d>I also consider, say, github, to be large, but it's mostly read-only
21:59:25  <jesusabdullah>excel's the only good frp implementation
21:59:28  <jesusabdullah>;)
21:59:54  <marcello3d>what's FRP?
22:00:15  <marcello3d>grncdr: curious, what did you not like about ractive?
22:00:20  <jesusabdullah>functional reactive programming
22:00:23  <Raynos>grncdr: have you tried hyperscript + observable ? ( http://requirebin.com/?gist=8308774 )
22:00:41  <jesusabdullah>marcello3d: you know how in spreadsheets, you change a value and all the functions referring to that cell auto-update?
22:00:48  <jesusabdullah>marcello3d: that's the reactive part at least
22:00:56  <marcello3d>jesusabdullah: gotcha
22:01:02  <grncdr>Raynos: no, I've been trying to decide between that or React.js
22:01:19  <grncdr>I have to teach whatever it is I decide on to others
22:01:19  <jesusabdullah>usually frp doesn't refer to spreadsheets cause spreadsheets are not "real programming" and also conflate logic with presentation really hard
22:01:29  <jesusabdullah>but, yeah, right idea
22:01:39  <marcello3d>what I liked about ractive was the documentation
22:01:44  <Raynos>grncdr: check out http://holmsand.github.io/cloact/
22:01:54  <grncdr>Raynos: yeah I saw that
22:02:06  <grncdr>I think clojurescript is a non-starter for this particular case though
22:02:14  <Raynos>maybe port the cloact api back to JS with hyperscript or https://github.com/Raynos/jsonml-stringify
22:02:20  <grncdr>hm, that might be fun
22:02:24  <Raynos>well the cloact api is a good api if it was ported to JS
22:02:25  <grncdr>"fun"
22:02:26  <Raynos>the react api sucks
22:02:47  <marcello3d>I also liked that it had a mustache precompiler/parser, so it was really easy to pick up, you just need to know html
22:02:52  <grncdr>Raynos: "hyperact"
22:03:00  <Raynos>grncdr: something like that
22:03:07  <grncdr>I might have to do it now just for the name :P
22:03:19  <marcello3d>problem with hyperscript is everything lives in JS, so you have to think in JS to build out html
22:03:52  <grncdr>marcello3d: how is that a problem?
22:04:07  <grncdr>the classic "working with designers who don't code" case or sth else?
22:04:14  <marcello3d>yea, along those lines
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22:04:31  <grncdr>yeah, that is legitimate, I'm not too concerned about it here
22:04:39  <marcello3d>easier to grok if you know html but not huge on js
22:04:50  <Raynos>marcello3d: same problem with react.js
22:04:52  <Raynos>and with jsonml
22:04:54  <Raynos>and hiccup
22:04:57  <marcello3d>I work on a mixed lang team so
22:05:00  <Raynos>its actually an advantage
22:05:08  <marcello3d>Raynos: haven't used those
22:05:21  <Raynos>templates as data structures are nice
22:05:26  <groundwater>ogd grncdr gonna talk on nodeup about docker/nodeos stuff in.. like 5 min
22:05:32  <ogd>sweet
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22:05:35  <Raynos>templates in js are nice because require is far better then template inheritance and functions are ebtter then mixins
22:05:41  <grncdr>groundwater: cool good luck
22:05:43  <marcello3d>sure
22:05:51  <Raynos>only downside is that its 10 layers away from <html>
22:05:55  <marcello3d>yea
22:05:58  <Raynos>so its a buy in.
22:06:02  <grncdr>ogd: you still at Haddon Hill? I think we're going to walk up there and check out that pizza place across the street?
22:06:15  <ogd>grncdr: yea stop by and ill get pizza with you
22:06:19  <grncdr>cool
22:06:48  <grncdr>Raynos: thoughts on JSX?
22:06:55  <grncdr>I kind of like it tbh
22:07:45  <marcello3d>I've kinda bounced back and forth on templates between html/text-based and code-based
22:07:56  <grncdr>being that it's "just" combining two things you need to know anyways, I feel like a lot of the stronger objections to compiles-to-js stuff don't really apply
22:08:10  <marcello3d>I wrote a library pretty similar (simpler) to hyperscript that I've been using
22:09:06  <marcello3d>what I've found when designing stuff, you think very differently depending which mode you're working in
22:09:46  <marcello3d>and with the html/text approach, I tend to think more visually and experimentally for some reason---maybe all in my head
22:10:45  <grncdr>I really don't think visually with html/text either
22:10:52  <grncdr>or anything but pen/paper for that matter
22:11:03  <grncdr>bbiaf, going to get pizza
22:19:03  <Raynos>grncdr: JSLULZX
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22:19:51  <Raynos>grncdr: I would just be like `var h = function (tagName) { var args = [].slice.call(arguments, 1); return React.DOM[tagName].apply(null, args) }`
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22:26:32  <marcello3d>I don't know what React is, but it already sounds overengineered
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22:27:17  <danielmoore>HI all - I found a weird discrepancy in how npm looks up users https://gist.github.com/danielmoore/8356567
22:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 56]
22:28:11  <danielmoore>afaict, those URLs should resolve the same way
22:28:14  <ogd>danielmoore: thats not a weird discrepancy, its just the way couchdb works, you should do what isaacs said in the comments
22:28:44  <danielmoore>right, I know about the rewrites, but I think this is more of a vhost issue.
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22:29:01  <danielmoore>why would rewrites work differently depending on the host?
22:29:18  <ogd>danielmoore: because thats how couchdb works
22:29:23  <ogd>danielmoore: you can read about couchdb vhosts to learn more
22:30:33  <ogd>danielmoore: not sure why you would want to query isaacs.ic.ht in the first place
22:31:28  <danielmoore>ah, is that not the actual npm registry?
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22:32:09  <danielmoore>the only rewrite that *seemed* relevant was this one:
22:32:10  <danielmoore>{
22:32:10  <danielmoore> "from": "/-/user/:user",
22:32:10  <danielmoore> "to": "../../../_users/:user",
22:32:10  <danielmoore> "method": "GET"
22:32:10  <danielmoore> }
22:32:42  <ogd>danielmoore: why do you want to query couchdb directly if you dont know how couchdb works? thats what registry.npmjs.org is for
22:33:01  <grncdr>ogd: I went straight to the pizza place was super hungry
22:33:14  <ogd>grncdr: ok
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22:33:27  <danielmoore>I'm setting up a private npm registry and for some reason `npm owner add` doesn't work ... all I get is {"error":"not_found","reason":"missing"}
22:33:45  <danielmoore>which is consistent with what I saw against isaacs.ic.ht
22:34:02  <ogd>danielmoore: just do what isaacs said int he comment
22:34:19  <ogd>danielmoore: npm doesnt work against couchdb directly, only against the _rewrite api
22:35:14  <danielmoore>right... but that rewrite API should still be available on the full URL, right?
22:36:01  <ogd>danielmoore: registry.npmjs.org and http://isaacs.ic.ht/registry/_design/app/_rewrite are the same thing
22:37:15  <danielmoore>ah, right.
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22:37:48  <danielmoore>yet... http://isaacs.ic.ht/registry/_design/app/_rewrite/-/user/org.couchdb.user:isaacs still gives me nothing
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22:37:54  <danielmoore>oh, hold on
22:38:14  * phatedjoined
22:39:17  <danielmoore>$ curl http://[email protected]/registry/_design/app/_rewrite/-/user/org.couchdb.user:isaacs
22:39:17  <danielmoore>{"error":"not_found","reason":"missing"}
22:40:05  <owen1>is there a modular version of facebook react? i remember people talking about it here.
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22:43:13  <grncdr>owen1: not really
22:43:49  <grncdr>like React itself is somewhat modular, but packaged as a monolith and the internal components are fairly tightly coupled
22:44:44  <grncdr>Raynos has hinted & threatened at writing a version that suits his aesthetic better, but I don't know if he's actively working on it
22:48:14  <Raynos>i want to
22:48:16  <Raynos>sec
22:48:31  <Raynos>and its not about aesthetic
22:48:37  <Raynos>porting cloact is atheatic
22:48:50  <Raynos>rewritng react is "FUCK THIS MONOLOTHIC UNMAINTAINABLE PIECE OF SHIT. IMMA DO IT RITE"
22:49:05  <Raynos>grncdr: https://github.com/dominictarr/feedopensource/issues/17#issuecomment-32054517
22:49:08  <Raynos>`frontend-framework`
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22:50:20  <grncdr>sorry aesthetic might not have been the most accurate term :P
22:50:29  <Raynos>i want to do both :P
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23:04:35  <owen1>grncdr: got it. sounds like i should invest some time in react
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23:20:27  <jlord>brianloveswords: i don't remember anything about balrog, like what it does or how it works or what my plan even was. but i can't stop wanting to make a static site generator!
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23:20:48  <jlord>brianloveswords: so i'm gonna dig into again and refresh myself and do something
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23:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 22]
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23:53:00  <ogd>groundwater: check out this test that i just got to pass https://github.com/maxogden/taco/blob/master/test/test.js#L50
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23:54:31  <ogd>TACO PLATFORM
23:54:31  <LOUDBOT>IT CAN'T BE THAT HARD LOOK YOU ALREADY KNOW PERL
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