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00:50:31  <marcello3d>anyone here familiar with the new css flow layout stuff? any good tutorials?
00:51:02  <marcello3d>and by flow I mean flex
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02:10:24  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 162.242.164.84 (dev-ie11-1)
02:11:24  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 184.106.106.66 (dev-ie7-1)
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02:19:54  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 162.242.164.84 (dev-ie11-1)
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05:18:42  <substack>dominictarr: http://oaklandwiki.org/Bitcoins_in_Oakland
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06:25:10  <jesusabdullah>My sister linked https://www.liketwice.com/jobs/ on facebook and was like, "this looks like a cool place to work"
06:25:50  <jesusabdullah>I've been bugging her to learn2program for a while :/
06:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 137]
06:30:55  <substack>jesusabdullah: http://oaklandwiki.org/Javascript
06:31:02  <substack>also: http://oaklandwiki.org/Bike_Theft
06:33:25  <collypops>I love that Oakland has its own wiki
06:33:33  <collypops>very handy, should I ever visit
06:34:00  <jesusabdullah>Lookin' good substack
06:34:04  <jesusabdullah>collypops: yeah local wikis rock
06:35:21  <jesusabdullah>collypops: substack The trick is giving them content.
06:35:29  <jesusabdullah>I should make a page for the slc wiki about coffee
06:35:41  <collypops>and it's frickin' up to date too
06:35:50  <collypops>"Isaacs was formerly the lead of the node.js project"
06:36:17  <jesusabdullah>http://saltlakewiki.org/Drinking_Laws
06:36:26  <jesusabdullah>Not complete enough
06:36:38  <collypops>it's also one of the few places substack is known as James Halliday
06:39:35  <collypops>how big is a measure of spirit in Oakland?
06:40:14  <collypops>1oz?
06:41:12  <collypops>in Scotland it varies between 25ml and 35ml (which are just smaller and just larger then 1oz)
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09:39:03  <rvagg>substack: you here?
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11:57:06  <dominictarr>substack, "WELL KNOWN TIES TO OAKLAND"
11:57:25  <dominictarr>LLOL
11:57:45  <dominictarr>(Literally Laughed Out Loud)
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13:24:25  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 10)
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14:35:10  <dominictarr>pfraze, hey, have you read about tahoeLAFS's capabilities? (new to me, but seems very interesting)
14:37:16  <dominictarr>pfraze, I also want to ask you about how grimwire "boots"
14:37:38  <pfraze>dominictarr, I had only seen it in passing. Does look interesting
14:38:05  <pfraze>dominictarr, sure, what about it?
14:39:16  <dominictarr>pfraze, it has an interesting scheme, where say if you have the write capability for a file (or directory)
14:39:35  <dominictarr>you can generate a read cap and give it to someone.
14:40:03  <dominictarr>also, there is another permission lower than that, verify - a reader can delegate verify as well.
14:40:30  <dominictarr>and it's all implemented in a clever way via crypto & keys
14:40:53  <pfraze>dominictarr, yeah, I've heard of object cap schemes. The capability is signed, right? So it can be verified anywhere
14:41:36  <dominictarr>yeah - so a write cap is the hash of the private key, which is used to encrypt the private key.
14:42:03  <dominictarr>so if you have the write cap, you can decrypt the private key, and the read cap is just hash of the public key
14:42:07  <dominictarr>hmm
14:43:36  <dominictarr>no. that was wrong - the read key is just the hash of the write key
14:44:13  <dominictarr>(which is used to encrypt the actual data)
14:44:23  <pfraze>does that mean having the write key lets you generate read keys?
14:44:32  <dominictarr>yes exactly.
14:45:03  <pfraze>I'll read more about this. Object caps interest me a lot.
14:45:04  <dominictarr>so, the author of the files also controls who has read permissions
14:45:38  <pfraze>and I'd guess they can retire old write keys
14:45:40  <pfraze>and create new ones
14:45:41  <dominictarr>but obviously, they don't have personal capabilities, if you know the secret you have permission.
14:45:55  <pfraze>hmm, well maybe not
14:46:02  <pfraze>can you generate new write keys?
14:46:05  <dominictarr>I think they would have to delete the old file and create a new one.
14:46:15  <pfraze>yeah, that's not terrible
14:46:17  <dominictarr>once a secret is told, it can never be untold.
14:46:29  <pfraze>right, how would you retire
14:46:44  <dominictarr>by "delete" I mean, politely ask the servers to "forget" the file ever existed.
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14:51:28  <dominictarr>pfraze, my other question: how does a grimwire app "boot", does it download code from the server, or use appcache?
14:51:45  <pfraze>dominictarr, the former
14:53:15  <dominictarr>ah, okay - I'm deciding what problem I should tackle next. (in the js crypto wizard quest)
14:53:52  <dominictarr>we have this idea: https://github.com/feross/infinite-app-cache
14:54:13  <dominictarr>to turn an appcache "bug" into a secure loader for js apps.
14:55:17  <pfraze>that... is interesting
14:55:18  <dominictarr>that will even be secure against server take over (i.e. compromised sysadmins!), provided that you installed the app before the compromise.
14:55:53  <dominictarr>pfraze, like this: https://github.com/feross/infinite-app-cache/issues/1
14:57:25  <pfraze>dominictarr, that actually might work. I'd need some of grimwire outside the appcache, because it has its own software that updates regularly
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14:58:21  <pfraze>dominictarr, is there any way to update the boot loader? I know app cache had some issue with that
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15:01:52  <pfraze>yeah, the manifest- how do you protect it?
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15:08:48  <dominictarr>pfraze, well, I think the thing is to make the bootloader so simple that it is never needs to be updated.
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15:09:17  <dominictarr>or, have a special way to "reflash the rom" and then "power cycle" the er, web page.
15:10:00  <pfraze>heh, yeah. The main task that comes to mind is using it to verify code, but it would need to be updated with hashes, right?
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15:11:07  <dominictarr>yeah, you could just give it a code (say in the hash fragment) that tells it to update to a new version, with a specific expected hash.
15:11:37  <dominictarr>All it would need on the inside would be one ajax call, and a hash algorithm.
15:11:58  <pfraze>yeah, so then the task is getting that update process secure
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15:13:31  <dominictarr>your server could notify the app, which would then notify the user, who could then click to see a page where various other developers have signed the new version
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15:14:20  <dominictarr>and the bootloader would refuse to load a new version if it was not signed by the right keys, for example.
15:14:42  <dominictarr>this could be in layers, of course
15:14:58  <dominictarr>like: bootloader, OS, application
15:15:19  <dominictarr>applications update frequently, but OS less frequently.
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15:15:29  <dominictarr>bootloader updates hardly ever.
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15:15:59  <dominictarr>you could also use one bootloader/OS across many secure applications!
15:16:23  <dominictarr>like an appstore in your browser!
15:16:26  <pfraze>yeah, that would be very cool
15:17:15  <pfraze>have you heard about the sha-verification proposal for CSP?
15:18:08  <dominictarr>no. what is CSP?
15:18:43  <pfraze>http://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/content-security-policy/csp-specification.dev.html <-- in development spec
15:18:52  <pfraze>1.0 is landed, that's for 1.1
15:19:48  <pfraze>I'm referring specifically to "Nonce usage for script elements" and "Hash usage for script elements", sections 3.2.5.17.*
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15:21:08  <pfraze>CSPs are provided in response headers of the original page, so they could still be compromised during the initial load, whereas the appcache bootloader reduces that possibility to the installs/updates
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15:23:25  <dominictarr>pfraze, so it allows you to specify the hash you expect a given resource (script, style) to have?
15:23:56  <pfraze>dominictarr, I think it only works for scripts in this spec, but yes
15:24:26  <pfraze>though why they don't generalize to all resources, I don't know
15:24:53  <pfraze>the nonces can also be used for selective inlining, which is nice
15:25:20  <pfraze>or selecting imports
15:25:24  <pfraze>selective*
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15:27:15  <dominictarr>it sounds like the right idea.
15:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 134]
15:28:22  <dominictarr>of course, you can do this in JS already... hmm, although this proposal beats XSS
15:28:42  <dominictarr>but doing it in JS only allows you to host your JS less securely.
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15:29:15  <pfraze>yeah, I'm in favor of disassociating from hosts entirely if that's possible
15:29:21  <dominictarr>https://mega.co.nz does this in JS, basically.
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15:30:00  <dominictarr>pfraze, yeah - you'll only need to load the bootloader from a specific host
15:30:16  <pfraze>dominictarr, right, the "install" step
15:30:22  <dominictarr>and after that each app can be run as https://jsboot.me/mailapp
15:31:04  <dominictarr>the host and domain will become part of the protocol
15:33:51  <pfraze>got involved in the issue, I'm in favor of tracking the idea and seeing it through, if possible
15:36:40  <dominictarr>yes. there are many things we could build with this.
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16:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 136]
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16:34:55  <thlorenz>substack, defunctzombie could someone plz give me a lgtm on this and hopefully pull it: https://github.com/substack/node-detective/pull/27
16:34:56  <thlorenz>thanks
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17:08:43  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: travis is crapping out on node 0.6 for detective (certificate issue I've been seeing all over the place)
17:08:58  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea, that is a known thing on node 0.6
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17:09:03  <defunctzombie>we should just drop support for it
17:09:04  <thlorenz>should I change supported versions to 0.8,0.10 and add to the PR?
17:09:14  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: ask substack first tho
17:09:23  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I would say yes but not my project :)
17:09:36  <thlorenz>ok, I'll hold on until he comments on this
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17:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 94]
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17:46:54  <substack>thlorenz: dropping 0.6 is fine
17:47:04  <thlorenz>ok, I'll add that to the PR
17:47:55  <thlorenz>substack: done - ready to pull :)
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18:07:32  <defunctzombie>rvagg: ping
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18:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 98]
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18:57:02  <mikolalysenko>man I hate writing c++ so much
18:57:08  * phated_changed nick to phated
18:57:10  <mikolalysenko>it isn't the language, but the goddamn build times
18:57:17  <mikolalysenko>and the stupid fucking header system
18:58:41  <mikolalysenko>*should probably stop growling and get back to work
18:58:50  <mikolalysenko>*once this rebuild finishes...
18:59:15  <coderzach>mikolalysenko: I find that if you don't make mistakes, you only have to build once you've finished writing the code. I find this is a far superior method of development.
18:59:17  <coderzach>;-)
18:59:46  <mikolalysenko>unless you go back and change something
18:59:55  <mikolalysenko>and most of the code was written colleagues
19:00:21  <mikolalysenko>and you change a single header which is in the root of the project and trigger an enormous cascade of rebuilds...
19:01:38  <coderzach>yeah, long feedback loops make getting in the zone impossible
19:02:19  <oky>mikolalysenko: using ccache?
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19:05:52  <dominictarr>"Yes, that�s right, I verbified �offline.� Yes, I verbified �verb.� Feel free to inbox me grammar complaints that I�ll trashinate."
19:06:01  <dominictarr>http://alistapart.com/article/application-cache-is-a-douchebag
19:08:06  <mmalecki>mikolalysenko: http://xkcd.com/303/
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19:27:50  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [developer: 13, free: 1793]
19:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 5, free: 34]
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19:45:26  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.72.69 (free7)
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19:56:37  <substack>ogd: https://travis-ci.org/substack/git-http-backend
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19:59:40  <ogd>substack: whoa it [email protected]
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20:27:51  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 40]
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20:49:13  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: free servers have browser configuration mismatch: free8 has 71 browsers but free10 has 72 browsers
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20:59:32  <thlorenz>substack: anything else you need for this? https://github.com/substack/node-detective/pull/27
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21:11:26  <creationix>Raynos, ping
21:11:40  <Raynos>PONG
21:11:43  <Raynos>creationix: hi.
21:11:55  <creationix>so I have a crazy idea about how to fund open source
21:12:03  <creationix>at least with my editor app
21:12:10  <Raynos>sell body parts
21:12:13  <Raynos>or children
21:12:22  <creationix>suppose that within the app, there was a store for yet-to-be-implemented features
21:12:56  <creationix>people would pre-order the features they want, and when I would work on whatever people were paying for
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21:13:20  <creationix>once a feature is usable, all the people who funded it would have status badges they could show off
21:13:20  <Raynos>that might work
21:13:39  <creationix>the code would all be open source and anyone could use it for free if they waited on others to pay
21:13:46  <creationix>so there will still be freeloaders
21:14:06  <creationix>but that makes you more willing to buy a feature knowing it will benifit more people than just you
21:14:16  <creationix>(at least for those of us who like donating to charity)
21:14:54  <creationix>the hosting services that go along with the app will obviously require monthly fees to cover my hosting costs
21:15:00  <creationix>but that's pretty standard stuff
21:16:21  <creationix>if it helped we could also give paying users access first to features
21:16:42  <creationix>the freeloaders would eventually get it, but only after it's been stable for a while
21:16:49  <creationix>so the funders are also the beta testers
21:17:39  <creationix>obviously, it's it's open source, someone could maintain a fork that enables all beta features for freeloaders, but that's a fine risk I think
21:18:48  <marcello3d>kickstarter for features?
21:19:02  <creationix>marcello3d, kindof
21:19:21  <creationix>I'm thinking that it would have to get past a certain threshold before I would start on a feature
21:19:34  <creationix>and people could move their points elsewhere for failed features
21:19:49  <marcello3d>interesting
21:20:07  <marcello3d>not a bad idea
21:20:22  <marcello3d>but I guess the system would have to be usable before that'd work, right?
21:20:29  <creationix>and the extra I make on the for-profit hosting side will help keep the features affordable
21:20:39  <creationix>marcello3d, right, I need to implement the store first
21:20:46  <creationix>and have a minimal product
21:20:53  <marcello3d>yea
21:21:00  <creationix>I'm working hard on that right now, but I don't have enough cash to finish it
21:21:24  <creationix>I need a bridge load/grant and kickstarter is too slow/ too much
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21:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 44]
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22:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 12]
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22:33:49  <ogd>what do ya'll use for debug level logging? e.g. i want to supress my console.logs unless $DEBUG is truthy
22:34:28  <ogd>i figure there are 500 modules for this and wonder if anyone has a pattern they like
22:36:12  <creationix>ogd, I kinda like https://npmjs.org/package/debug
22:37:03  <ogd>ah cool
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22:45:11  <defunctzombie>ogd: debug module
22:45:29  <defunctzombie>ogd: it is simple and anyone who has used it will know how to use it with your module
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23:17:55  <Raynos>creationix: so this idea of in app prompting for openfeedsource style iteration funding
23:17:59  <Raynos>creationix: is really cool
23:18:10  <Raynos>creationix: mainly because you get the funding AND you stick to your open source roots
23:18:15  <Raynos>creationix: which is mad respect
23:18:39  <Raynos>ogd: I tend to pass in a logger as an argument to my module
23:18:45  <Raynos>instead of globally logging to `debug` or `console`
23:19:15  <Raynos>ogd: the problem is that your module is doing side effects (logging to a global logger).
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23:27:50  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 42]
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