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00:56:22  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
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02:44:23  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
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03:49:10  <thlorenz>substack, hey I'm at the node townhall thing, are you gonna be at sudo room later?
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04:04:32  <substack>thlorenz: yep I'm there right now
04:04:36  <substack>there's a draw oakland event
04:05:01  <substack>and some people got the 3d printer running off a battery and are wheeling it out to the street
04:05:17  <thlorenz>ok cool I'm gonna head over there after there once this event here is over
04:05:30  <thlorenz>sounds you got interesting stuff going on over there
04:05:46  <thlorenz>substack, I'll ping you though before I get into the train
04:06:10  <substack>ok
04:06:16  <substack>I don't have my bike so I'll be barting back
04:06:29  <thlorenz>cool - we can bart together :)
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04:12:03  <kumavis>on osx, when you plug in a mouse, you get these big scroll gutters (in chrome at least)
04:12:39  <kumavis>can you turn them off / hide them / style them, without disabling scrolling?
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04:53:27  <defunctzombie>kumavis: yes
04:54:10  <defunctzombie>kumavis: I forget what the setting is called, but there is a way to turn off scrollbars from always showing like that
04:55:21  <kumavis>defunctzombie: thanks, though i mean via css
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06:56:24  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
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08:19:20  <terinjokes>kumavis: no, i don't think so
08:19:51  <kumavis>flaming tears of terror
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08:44:25  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
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11:40:30  <guybrush>hij1nx: mozilla gave up on personas?
11:42:10  <guybrush>http://identity.mozilla.com/post/78873831485/transitioning-persona-to-community-ownership ?
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12:56:26  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
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13:48:03  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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14:44:27  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
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15:03:35  <defunctzombie>kumavis: does it happen in google+ where they use their own custom scrollbar all the time? might want to see what they do
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17:43:21  <kumavis>defunctzombie_zz: ah good idea
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18:16:05  <jesusabdullah>Okay stackers, discuss. http://www.rbcs-us.com/documents/Why-Most-Unit-Testing-is-Waste.pdf
18:16:08  <jesusabdullah>substack: ^^
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18:56:28  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
18:58:15  <mikolalysenko>jesusabdullah: so he claims we shouldn't test because it can't cover all edge cases?
18:58:26  <mikolalysenko>that sounds kind of stupid/defeatist
18:58:39  <mikolalysenko>you test what you can, if you find a bug make a test and add it to the suite
18:58:49  <mikolalysenko>I also don't buy the argument for deleting old test cases
19:00:07  <mikolalysenko>I don't really feel like picking through the rest of the arguments, but my impression from his first two points is that the guy sounds pretty cranky
19:00:52  <mikolalysenko>maybe he is recovering some abusive environment where he was forced to write lots of really pointless and over engineered test cases
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19:09:57  <gildean>mikolalysenko: i read the whole thing and his main point was that unit tests tend to be useless if not harmful, not that testing is useless as a whole
19:10:04  <gildean>and he actually makes some good points
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19:13:07  <mikolalysenko>gildean: which ones stand out to you?
19:14:34  <gildean>mainly that i've seen the same things, lots of unit tests that can never fail or just testing stupid little things instead of testing more coarsely the whole system/feature
19:15:39  <gildean>and that forcing your code to be more testable can make the code less readable and understandable as a whole
19:16:17  <mikolalysenko>depends how you design the system and what things you are trying to test I think
19:16:30  <mikolalysenko>it is true that testing stupid things is stupid (by tautology)
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19:17:03  <mikolalysenko>but I think that writing code in smaller pieces tends to make it easier to test
19:17:31  <mikolalysenko>since it requires you to write a decoupled interface with prescribed invariants
19:17:44  <mikolalysenko>also, I don't really look at code -> test as a one way street
19:17:54  <mikolalysenko>tests help validate the code, and the code helps validate the tests
19:18:20  <mikolalysenko>forcing both systems to work concurrently decreases the probability of failure in either one
19:18:29  <gildean>it's true about the smaller parts, but do you write it in smaller pieces because you want it to be more testable or do you write it so that it follows your train of thought better
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19:19:16  <gildean>yeah, i agree on that testing validates the code, but i also agree on the paper that the testing should be done on a coarser level
19:19:17  <mikolalysenko>well, usually what I want to test is my train of thought so those two things aren't exclusive
19:19:46  <mikolalysenko>I have some mental model of what I think the code should do and that is what I want to test
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19:20:38  <mikolalysenko>but I will say that writing lots of silly tests is just tedious and painful
19:20:52  <mikolalysenko>like testing getters/setters/object oriented boilerplate
19:21:09  <mikolalysenko>though usually the fact that you even have such things to test is kind of a bad sign in the first place
19:21:26  <mikolalysenko>since if you have an interface or capability that does something trivial you could consider just removing it
19:23:36  <mikolalysenko>in fact, I think that might be a way to turn this idea around: instead of throwing out tests, just throw out junk code if it has too many trivial tests
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19:24:14  <gildean>mikolalysenko: the paper also raises that point
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19:28:11  <mikolalysenko>gildean: true, but it was not listed in his final bullet list of prescriptions
19:35:14  <Raynos>rvagg: ping
19:35:27  <Raynos>rvagg: got an idea for workshopper-exercise, if you want to see at some point
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20:21:57  <kumavis>Raynos: oo what topic?
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20:36:54  <pfraze>wrote a post on dynamically extending web applications by applying useragent behaviors, http://pfraze.github.io/2014/03/08/applying-user-agent-behaviors.html
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20:44:28  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
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23:02:22  <Raynos>I started a http workshopper ( https://github.com/Raynos/http-works/issues ) would love review / feedback :)
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23:04:51  <pfraze>interesting that you're sharing pull requests
23:05:17  <pfraze>took me a second
23:06:43  <Raynos>all the content is in PRs
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23:09:36  <pfraze>mhmm. I'm looking at exercise 2 - generally strong start - I'd suggest the hint with isValidRoute() might be a bit confusing, because you're employing psuedologic that doesnt include the full flow
23:10:35  <pfraze>whereas in the solution, the route-check returns the route handler, that part is missing from the hint. Tough not to give away too much, but possibly a stumbling block for someone thinking through it for the first time
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23:13:41  <pfraze>the solution also uses the routes dependency, which is probably a good suggestion for new programmers, but hides the actual routing logic. If that's meant for a student to learn from, I'd suggest implementing a simple router that they can read, then suggesting they use a library like 'routes' in realworld use
23:16:11  <pfraze>solid start, though, and I like that you mostly direct students to documentation
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23:23:58  <Raynos>pfraze: good comments, leave them on github
23:24:21  <Raynos>pfraze: I want to add some routing docs to http-framework in the README, i could link to that
23:24:33  <Raynos>it would be regex's in a if statement
23:25:27  <pfraze>Raynos: sure thing. That would probably work - it is advantageous to show real-world code, nobody would define a crummy router in their own app
23:28:20  <Raynos>:)
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