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00:27:19  <ogd>hughsk: hey did you ever write that tree browser module/
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01:12:08  <groundwater>ogd: here, where are you?
01:17:29  <ogd>groundwater: get on the 4 bus downtown
01:17:40  <ogd>groundwater: and go towards fresh pot on Mississippi
01:17:45  <groundwater>i have google maps, so you can just tell me where to meet you
01:17:49  <groundwater>ogd: ^
01:18:02  <groundwater>oh fresh pot?
01:18:09  <ogd>We are on the 4 bus about to go through downtown
01:18:31  <groundwater>oh, okay i'll head out now
01:18:58  <groundwater>ogd: which street does 4 go down?
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01:58:20  <airportyh>ogd: yup I'll be at nodeconf.
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02:40:45  <Wraithan>groundwater: It goes along albina
02:40:53  <Wraithan>y'all are near my hood
02:41:24  <groundwater>I'm in missisippi are
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02:42:51  <Wraithan>groundwater: the 4 goes along mississippi for a few blocks
02:43:07  <Wraithan>groundwater: I live about 1.5 mi from mississippi
02:43:21  <groundwater>Mac and cheesery
02:43:53  <Wraithan>groundwater: that a place on mississippi?
02:44:09  <Wraithan>I haven't hung out over there in years, it got super trendy and busy all the time
02:45:12  <mmckegg>what are people using these days for web sockets + fallback? Is shoe still current?
02:45:44  <Wraithan>mmckegg: shoe is what I use, but I have trouble keeping up with trends
02:46:15  <mmckegg>finally getting around to updating some old production code that uses classic socket.io
02:46:32  <Wraithan>nice
02:46:36  <Wraithan>groundwater: y'all hacking over there?
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04:38:12  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.27.70(dev-ie6-1)
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05:30:26  <mmalecki>substack: hey, any opinion about https://github.com/substack/invoicer/pull/3 ?
05:30:56  <mmalecki>substack: I want to migrate my company from harvest to your stack (invoicer and whatever that second thing was)
05:31:08  <mmalecki>substack: but we kinda need an invoice with logos and such
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05:33:22  <substack>oh cool!
05:33:27  <substack>mmalecki: yeah I'll get around to it
05:33:33  <mmalecki>substack: <3
05:33:39  <substack>I think I was waiting on it because moving to pdf.js long-term will be better
05:33:44  <substack>but I can always bump the major for that
05:34:22  <substack>clocker is the other piece
05:34:51  <mmalecki>ya :). I'm curious how we could make it as extensivle with pdf.js
05:35:21  <mmalecki>you'd probably have to supply your own module with pdf.js code in it to create custom invoices
05:38:17  <mmalecki>I'm also curious about making clocker better for teams. with harvest I had access to everyone's hours and such
05:38:35  <mmalecki>with clocker I planned to maybe export data once daily into a git repo
05:38:57  <substack>`clocker push` would be really cool
05:40:27  <mmalecki>that'd push JSON? like, dump it into a file and `git push`?
05:41:44  <substack>sure
05:42:37  <mmalecki>I'll look into that :)
05:48:51  <mmalecki>substack: btw, why does clocker format time data going into leveldb? why not just store timestamps?
05:49:45  <substack>timestamps aren't lexicographically sortable
05:49:55  <substack>but iso8601 dates are
05:50:02  <mmalecki>ohhh, okay
05:50:23  <substack>if you have 2 timestamps of 500 and 1000, 500 will come after 1000
05:50:37  <substack>so you can zero-pad or do a transformation
05:50:51  <substack>but I like just putting them as formatted string
05:51:02  <substack>because it's easier to inspect them manually when you need to
05:51:32  <mmalecki>yeah, that's clever
05:51:44  <substack>and they sort string-wise, at least until the year 10000
05:52:44  <substack>mmalecki: merged
05:52:57  <mmalecki>substack: thanks!
05:54:23  <mmalecki>next thing I'm gonna do is add `description` field to each item
05:55:06  <mmalecki>like `clocker -t yld -d 'this stupid merge I need to do today' start`
05:55:22  <mmalecki>sounds good substack?
05:56:22  <substack>that is already implemented
05:57:06  <mmalecki>oh? I only see -t
05:57:18  <substack>oh it was in a branch that I didn't merge into master
05:57:33  <substack>ah wait
05:57:37  <substack>it's only implemented in stop
05:58:02  <substack>clocker stop -m '.....'
05:58:21  <mmalecki>ah :). that could work too
05:58:32  <mmalecki>it actually makes more sense then in `start` when I think about it
05:58:56  <substack>it would be cool to have a way to specify messages before you stop the clock too
05:59:04  <substack>so as you get pieces done, you document them
05:59:11  <mmalecki>yeah, want me to finish it off?
05:59:15  <substack>sure, go wild
05:59:23  <substack>I like -m for it since it's the same as git
05:59:27  <mmalecki>did you push that branch?
05:59:31  <mmalecki>yeah, -m sounds good
05:59:32  <substack>yeah it's in master
05:59:38  <substack>but only for stop
05:59:53  <mmalecki>ah, yeah, I see it now
06:01:40  <dominic_>hey mmalecki! here is my current plans: https://gist.github.com/dominictarr/10527070
06:02:01  <mmalecki>YES PLEASE DO BE IN AMSTERDAM IN MAY
06:02:02  <LOUDBOT>"DID YOU EAT YER NUGGETS YOU SKINNY LITTLE BEE-BOP. YER SO SKINNY. BEE-BOP." SAID MUMMY.
06:02:09  <dominic_>:)
06:02:49  <mmalecki>there's a bitcoin conference here in May but I decided not to go, it's mostly marketing types
06:03:02  <mmalecki>I doubt you'd enjoy it either, just saying there's such a thing
06:04:12  <substack>mmalecki: the other thing I want to do with clocker/invoicer is integrate it with a job board for tiny part time consulting things
06:04:29  <substack>a money faucet so you can just work when you need to and otherwise just work on your own stuff
06:04:54  <dominic_>substack: a money pump
06:04:55  <mmalecki>substack: oh, that's a neat idea! I've been wondering about doing such a thing but never could think of a proper way to execute
06:05:02  <dominic_>MAN THE PUMPS WE ARE TAKING ON WATER!
06:05:02  <LOUDBOT>YOU WOULDN'T ACCIDENTALLY A POKEMAN
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06:05:43  <dominic_>mmalecki: come to this one in may: http://decentralizecamp.com/
06:06:01  <substack>mmalecki: `clocker push` would be good for that. I could just run a git endpoint on the job board with git-http-backend
06:06:10  <mmalecki>substack: are all those `argv.type || argv.t` necessary? I thought this was handled in minimist
06:06:29  <substack>mmalecki: yeah you're right
06:06:43  <substack>you can simplify those if you want
06:06:50  <mmalecki>will do :)
06:06:56  <mmalecki>almost done with message too I think
06:07:05  <substack>cool
06:09:18  <mmalecki>dominic_: maaan, Dusseldorf
06:09:25  <mmalecki>dominic_: that's like middle of nowhere XD
06:09:41  <mmalecki>dominic_: seriously tho, I'll look into that, I have nothing to do in May
06:09:58  <mmalecki>except js unconf I think
06:10:12  <mmalecki>wait shit that's like right now
06:10:17  <mmalecki>holy fuck, that's in April
06:10:19  <mmalecki>gah
06:11:11  <mmalecki>substack: you want `list` to show messages too, right?
06:11:32  <dominic_>mmalecki: kraftwerk are from dusseldorf! It CAN'T be the middle of nowhere!
06:12:00  <mmalecki>I mean, it *is* in Germany
06:12:13  <mmalecki>oh, this city has 11 mil people
06:12:33  <mmalecki>that's like 1/4 of Poland's population
06:13:32  <mmalecki>substack: ah, it does with -v, nvm
06:15:08  <mmalecki>now I only need to figure out a way to force clocker into my workflow, since I have a client and a project. clocker only has one -t
06:15:25  <mmalecki>but I think I can just do -t 'YLD (Lamassu)' or w/e
06:16:13  <mmalecki>or just use invoicer for that
06:16:31  <mmalecki>substack: (please tell me you actually own BEEPCORP HOLDINGS LTD)
06:22:05  <mmalecki>substack: I'm also confused about why the --title default is in `clocker data`
06:22:28  <mmalecki>substack: harvest has tasks, like 'Software development', 'Admin'
06:22:39  <mmalecki>substack: but those are per item
06:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 6, free: 28]
06:23:48  <mmalecki>dominic_: decentralize looks neat
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06:27:02  <substack>mmalecki: yes list should show messages
06:28:32  <substack>mmalecki: I've never used any other time tracking software before, I just made things up
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06:28:48  <substack>mmalecki: what about letting -t have a separator like '.'?
06:29:16  <mmalecki>yeah, that works too :). I'm completely fine with 'Client (Software development)'
06:29:27  <mmalecki>that's how I want it output in invoice anyway
06:29:35  <substack>so if you do -t beepcorp.admin it knows to show you that when you data -t beepcorp
06:29:55  <mmalecki>ohh
06:29:57  <mmalecki>that'd be nice, yeah
06:37:57  <mmalecki>all right, I'm gonna go and take clocker for an actual spin'
06:38:23  <mmalecki>substack: let me know if you want to discuss that job board thing sometimes
06:38:28  <mmalecki>substack: microconsulting would be win
06:40:37  <dominic_>substack: you need a thing to quantize times to the half hour, only lawyers bill in 6 minute slots.
06:41:48  <mmalecki>dominic_: nah, I bill to the minute even
06:42:05  <mmalecki>dominic_: it's never been a problem, clients seem to like the honesty
06:43:39  <mmalecki>substack: are you attached to leveldb in clocker? I think storing data in JSON only would make `clocker push` way easier
06:43:51  <mmalecki>`~/.clocker` could just be a git repo
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06:46:49  <dominic_>mmalecki: okay then.
06:47:25  <mmalecki>dominic_: I guess I could make more money by rounding up to half-hour so I'll reconsider that XD
06:47:54  <mmalecki>seriously tho, billing by minute lets me open my laptop on a tram, work 5 minutes and close it
06:48:17  <mmalecki>dominic_: where do you work now btw?
06:51:46  <dominic_>mmalecki: I'm just doing some freelancing, some stuff with rvagg, some other stuff
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07:02:47  <substack>dominic_: I really like per-second time tracking
07:02:53  <substack>then I don't have to think about it at all
07:03:11  <substack>I just turn it on when I'm working
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07:03:46  <substack>mmalecki: that wouldn't scale very well for archiving
07:04:12  <substack>I'm keen to keep level in there
07:04:53  <mmalecki>a'ight. I'll figure out a nice way to keep a git repo in sync then
07:05:28  <substack>the data is relatively append-heavy
07:05:30  <substack>which helps
07:06:27  <substack>it might be ok to use json files, it would just be kind of messy
07:06:38  <substack>I would rather that lived behind a nice interface so it doesn't become a mess
07:07:31  <mmalecki>all I can think about is abstractlevel-like interface for JSON files
07:07:43  <substack>that might be cool!
07:09:08  <substack>mmalecki: I already have a .gitignore
07:09:12  <substack>I just don't check them into git
07:09:23  <substack>on purpose
07:09:37  <mmalecki>ah, fair enough
07:09:44  <mmalecki>feel free to cherry-pick around this
07:09:54  <mmalecki>I think it's a seperate commit
07:10:01  <substack>yep I'll just cherry-pick
07:12:10  <dominic_>mmalecki: I have started on a JSON based LSMT database (same architecture as level, but all json)
07:12:30  <substack>mmalecki: one problem is that if you clocker start -m'' and clocker stop -m'' your first message gets overwritten
07:12:45  <dominic_>here is http://github.com/dominictarr/json-logdb < mem table part
07:13:07  <dominic_>json sst: https://github.com/dominictarr/json-sst < the sorted table
07:13:20  <dominic_>all that remains is to combine those and implement compaction
07:13:23  <mmalecki>substack: yeah, I made it work like that on purpose actually, assuming that when you're done you know more about stuff you did
07:13:32  <mmalecki>substack: I'm not attached to it thi
07:13:35  <mmalecki>*tho
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07:14:18  <dominic_>but, you can use json-logdb on it's own... it just loads the whole thing into memory - which is completely fine for the rate you create data is this application, mind you!
07:14:41  <mmalecki>dominic_: looking now, that's promising
07:15:42  <mmalecki>dominic_: a'ight, that looks pretty much like what I want
07:20:48  <substack>mmalecki: all merged
07:21:00  <mmalecki>substack: awesome, thanks!
07:21:22  <substack>if you don't get around to the -t group.task feature I'll probably get around to that soonish
07:21:40  <substack>sub-categories would be highly useful
07:21:55  <mmalecki>yeah, I doubt this'd happen today unfortunately, I need to do actual work
07:22:44  <substack>keep me posted about how the swapping out harvest for clocker+invoicer goes!
07:22:59  <substack>I'm quite keen to have good open tools that everybody can use
07:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 27]
07:23:12  <substack>especially if that can grease the wheels of micro-consulting
07:24:00  <mmalecki>substack: yup, will do! I think the next thing I'd need to do is some sort of invoice management
07:24:14  <mmalecki>substack: but that's still pretty minor, I can do without it
07:24:41  <mmalecki>substack: yeah, you keep me updated about that job board
07:25:14  <dominic_>mmalecki: I need to update some stuff on it, so that it is a valid leveldown...
07:25:31  <dominic_>there are just a few things missing, but the leveldown tests are very strict.
07:26:42  <mmalecki>btw, I really really really want a leveldown-like wrapper for ZFS' OSD
07:27:00  <dominic_>mmalecki: what is OSD?
07:27:22  <mmalecki>dominic_: it's an object store-like thing behind ZFS
07:27:36  <mmalecki>dominic_: like, you can build key-value stores on top of it
07:27:47  <mmalecki>dominic_: but it's low level enough to be a huge pita to wrap around
07:27:52  <dominic_>oh okay cool.
07:28:04  <mmalecki>dominic_: and then there's this thing about interacting with your kernel driver from node...
07:29:35  <mmalecki>dominic_: what's left in that JSON leveldown? it seems valid from a brief look
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07:31:10  <dominic_>it would probably work... but the tests are just super strict. I created this before there where any, otherwise it would work.
07:31:28  <mmalecki>oh, all right :)
07:31:46  <dominic_>there is also bigeasy/strata that is a javascript btree
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07:37:21  <substack>mmalecki: another thing we could try instead of git is just sending the json data to a web endpoint with the messages signed by the local private key
07:37:31  <substack>then you don't need to worry about auth as much
07:37:51  <mmalecki>substack: yup, that could work too. we don't really need version control for that
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10:38:12  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.27.70(dev-ie6-1)
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15:23:05  <rowbit1>Daily usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 136]
15:23:06  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 58]
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16:16:26  <jesusabdullah>WHERE IS THORSTEN
16:16:26  <LOUDBOT>IF MY DOLLAR COUNT EQUALS EMPTY PARENTHESES EQUALS DOLLAR LINE EQUALS TILDE SLASH BRACKET CAPITAL A DASH CAPITAL Z CLOSE BRACKET SLASH GT LENGTH DOLLAR LINE ASTERISK ZERO POINT EIGHT
16:17:41  <jesusabdullah>THERE WERE RUMOURS
16:17:42  <LOUDBOT>OH GOD IT'S LIKE A KITTEN ORGY TODAY
16:17:59  <jesusabdullah>HE WAS INTO NODEJS CONSULTING
16:17:59  <LOUDBOT>WE DON'T NEED NO WATER LET THE MOTHERFUCKER BURN
16:18:07  <jesusabdullah>EVERYTHING WAS JUST SO HUSH-HUSH
16:18:08  <LOUDBOT>KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON
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16:23:06  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 43]
16:38:13  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.27.70(dev-ie6-1)
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17:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 45]
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17:27:58  <jesusabdullah>ugh
17:28:16  <jesusabdullah>someone's complaining about ecstatic but refuses to make an issue or show me their barfing code -_-;
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18:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 39]
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18:31:31  <jesusabdullah>othiym23: New gig? Gratz!
18:31:43  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: Node Firm? Srsly?? GEEZ
18:31:47  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: testling server winIE9 + chrome + firefox + opera + safari + all nightly (rackspace) is down!
18:32:13  <othiym23>jesusabdullah: thanks d00d, it's gonna be fun
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18:47:14  <thlorenz>othiym23: first request: remove weekends from download graph to get a smoother line - right now it looks like the Alps (the weekend being the valleys)
18:48:02  <thlorenz>oh and congrats of course from me as well othiym23 :)
18:48:29  <phated>thlorenz: node firm?
18:49:08  <thlorenz>phated: yep, although I'm not officially announced, but yes, starting in May
18:49:19  <phated>thlorenz: congrats, what role?
18:49:28  <thlorenz>probably may as well tweet it now -- thanks jesusabdullah GEEZ :P
18:49:53  <thlorenz>phated: mixed, training, consulting and helping out with node core and related tooling
18:50:21  * ednapiranhajoined
18:50:38  <phated>thlorenz: awesome
18:51:05  <thlorenz>phated: yeah I thought so too - would probably do the same in my free time anyways :)
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19:05:34  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: oh man am I glad I wrote npmlinxxx it's SO much easier than npm link lol
19:05:42  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: like, absolutely none of the heartache it's great
19:06:17  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: nice I'm still using ln -s
19:06:39  <Wraithan>si far
19:06:51  <Wraithan>so far `npm link` is working for me for my simple cases
19:06:52  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: yeah it's p close lol
19:06:56  <Wraithan>Where does it break down?
19:07:08  <thlorenz>Wraithan: not that it breaks down, but it does so much
19:07:17  <jesusabdullah>Wraithan: around the time you start working with private deps and ssh keys
19:07:18  <thlorenz>i.e. it generates this link triangle
19:07:30  <thlorenz>that too
19:07:55  <jesusabdullah>Wraithan: https://github.com/jesusabdullah/npmlinxxx I write a little about this under "rationale"
19:08:14  <Wraithan>jesusabdullah: I'll read it shortly, probably grabbing lunch soon
19:08:20  <jesusabdullah>word
19:08:23  <jesusabdullah>food is good
19:08:43  <chapel>awesome othiym23
19:08:45  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: what more does it do than ln -sf?
19:08:46  <chapel>congrats
19:08:50  <thlorenz>from the man: -f If the target file already exists, then unlink it so that the link may occur.
19:09:07  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: I remember though that that didn't always work
19:10:04  <Wraithan>jesusabdullah: oh yeah, I noticed the link to global thing and thought it odd
19:10:19  <thlorenz>Wraithan: that's the main reason I'm not using it
19:10:35  <Wraithan>maybe I'll switch
19:10:37  <thlorenz>I just cd node_modules; rm -rf foo; ln -s ../../foo
19:10:53  <thlorenz>(usually my libs are right next to each other)
19:11:23  <chapel>yeah thlorenz I use a projects directory
19:11:33  <chapel>so everything is usually one or two steps away
19:11:35  <Wraithan>do either of these account for stuff that goes into node_modules/.bin ?
19:11:45  <Wraithan>I guess I could just read it
19:11:48  * Wraithanlunches
19:11:58  <thlorenz>Wraithan: .bin is just linked to inside node_modules/lib/bin
19:12:03  <thlorenz>lib being your lib
19:12:15  <thlorenz>so it would still work unless the /bin filename changed
19:12:25  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: It's just less typing and more noisy
19:12:34  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: no semis basically
19:12:44  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: ah that's nice features :)
19:13:09  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: https://github.com/jesusabdullah/npmlinxxx/blob/master/npmlinxxx#L39-L61
19:13:12  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: it's quite small
19:13:24  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: I'm just glad I'm getting as much use out of it as I hoped
19:13:25  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: yeah, I just read through it
19:13:28  <jesusabdullah>possibly more
19:13:42  <thlorenz>was looking for the part where you magically find the module I'm trying to link to
19:13:51  <thlorenz>no matter where in the file system it is
19:14:07  <thlorenz>didn't find that part though :(
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19:19:09  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: that's WAY too much magic, you should know where the module lives XD
19:19:17  <jesusabdullah>thlorenz: plus, like, you could be putting that shit ANYWHERE
19:19:31  <thlorenz>jesusabdullah: I was half joking
19:19:38  <jesusabdullah>but ONLY HALF JOKING
19:19:42  <thlorenz>but looking upwards til it hits home would be nice
19:19:50  <thlorenz>home == ~
19:19:56  <jesusabdullah>right
19:20:43  <jesusabdullah>hahaha the "help" loglevel says "halp"
19:20:45  <jesusabdullah>I'd forgotten about that
19:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 4, free: 36]
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19:38:07  <mikolalysenko>these results are really shocking: https://github.com/mikolalysenko/static-kdtree#comparisons
19:38:27  <mikolalysenko>it seems right now that the current state of kdtree data structures in js is completely awful
19:39:02  <mikolalysenko>the best library on npm (node-kdtree), uses native C++ bindings and is still slower than brute force search
19:39:11  <mikolalysenko>not to mention it doesn't even handle range or knn queries...
19:44:56  <pfraze>mikolalysenko, in your top chart in the readme for choosing a data structure, does dimension refer to the number of values/attributes searched against?
19:45:12  <othiym23>chapel: thanks!
19:45:31  <othiym23>thlorenz: I'll pass that along to rockbot, she's the lord of npm-www
19:45:38  <othiym23>I think isaacs likes seeing the weekend valleys, though
19:45:54  <othiym23>it shows people that npm / node are grownup tools for real businesses now
19:46:24  <chapel>othiym23: are you in the bay?
19:46:40  <othiym23>chapel: yep, will be commuting over to npm from SF
19:46:49  <chapel>cool
19:47:16  <chapel>did you live in Portland before?
19:47:27  <mikolalysenko>yes
19:47:43  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: dimension = dimension of the geometric space in which you are searching
19:48:19  <pfraze>mikolalysenko, are you in spaces with more than 3 dimensions?
19:48:42  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: ogd could you point me to an awesome requirebin demo?
19:48:57  <thlorenz>I'd like to link that to show fastly why we need to support browerify cdn cache
19:49:07  <thlorenz>https://twitter.com/thlorenz/status/455792375172829184
19:49:37  <mikolalysenko>thlorenz: here is a fun one, but there are some bugs http://requirebin.com/?gist=mikolalysenko/9610686
19:49:44  <mikolalysenko>you can plot surfaces in 3D
19:49:55  <thlorenz>ah nice
19:50:00  <mikolalysenko>try modifying the function f(x,y,z)
19:50:24  <thlorenz>ok I zoomed
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19:50:53  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: you can have spaces with many dimensions pretty easily
19:50:58  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: so this would be good to show off requirebin I guess
19:51:05  <mikolalysenko>like a feature space for a classifier, for example
19:51:27  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: the main application for kdtrees usually is when implementing lloyd's algorithm for kmeans
19:52:10  <mikolalysenko>thlorenz: the one thing to be careful about in that demo is axes don't work right
19:52:38  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: that's cool, it's more to show off why we need browserify-cdn to be more stable ;)
19:52:40  <mikolalysenko>this is because the package.json in the requirebin is locked to an old version of gl-axes, and I can't seem to get it to switch to the newest on npm
19:53:16  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: that sucks :( - another reason to get some support
19:53:24  <pfraze>ok interesting
19:53:46  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: in 2d/3d though kdtrees are kind of a bad data structure
19:53:58  <mikolalysenko>at least for range searching
19:54:10  <mikolalysenko>for k- nearest neighbors they can be "ok"
19:54:12  <mikolalysenko>but not great
19:54:21  <mikolalysenko>and they are a bit faster than linear scan, but not by much
19:54:56  <mikolalysenko>or it isn't that they are bad, it is just that there are clearly better options
19:54:57  <thlorenz>so everyone who wants to make fastly support browserify-cdn should probably retweet this
19:54:57  <thlorenz>https://twitter.com/thlorenz/status/455792375172829184
19:55:02  <mikolalysenko>more like kdtrees are kind of mediocre
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19:55:12  <thlorenz>^ ogd mikolalysenko jesusabdullah
19:55:32  * ednapiranhajoined
19:55:53  <thlorenz>chrisdickinson: Domenic_ defunctzombie ^
19:56:05  <mikolalysenko>thlorenz: done, though I would suspect my followers are a subset of ogd/everyone else's
19:56:23  <thlorenz>:) that goes for probably half the peeps in this channel
19:57:31  <pfraze>mikolalysenko, ok, one other question: you say it's a geometric space - by that do you mean that each dimension is numeric, or more specifically real numbers, or anything like that?
19:58:36  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: abstractly, it is what is called a range space
19:58:53  <mikolalysenko>which is a set with a collection of n total orderings
19:58:57  <mikolalysenko>n = dimension of range space
19:59:09  <mikolalysenko>and a range is a product of intervals in those orders
19:59:43  <mikolalysenko>there is no wiki article on this I am afraid :(
19:59:48  <pfraze>by n total orderings you mean the items in the set are ordered?
20:00:18  <mikolalysenko>well they are ordered along each axis
20:00:19  <pfraze>yeah, dont worry if this is a bit much for me to learn over irc
20:00:27  <mikolalysenko>so in 2D, you have pairs of points, (x,y)
20:00:33  <mikolalysenko>and you can sort them by x and sort them by y
20:00:41  <mikolalysenko>those are you two different orders
20:00:45  <pfraze>ah, ok
20:01:05  <mikolalysenko>a range then is just a box in this space
20:01:20  <mikolalysenko>so it would be something like -10 < x < 10 & 5 < y < 13
20:01:52  <mikolalysenko>that is, it is a product of intervals in each of the orders
20:02:04  <mikolalysenko>[-10, 10] x [5, 13]
20:02:21  <pfraze>is that to say, it's everything "within" that box?
20:04:25  <mikolalysenko>yeah, that is what the box is
20:04:36  <mikolalysenko>so the orthogonal range query problem is this:
20:06:27  <mikolalysenko>given some collection of points in a range space, preprocess them so you can report all points in any range efficiently
20:06:59  <mikolalysenko>the dumb solution is no preprocessing, and it lets you get range queries in O(n)
20:07:31  <mikolalysenko>kdtrees take O(n log(n)) preprocessing time, O(n) extra space, and answer queries in O(n^(1-1/d))
20:07:58  <mikolalysenko>and range trees take O(n log^d(n)) time and space to preprocess, but give logarithmic queries in O(log^(d-2)(n))
20:08:20  <mikolalysenko>the d-2 there requires using some tricks though, like fractional cascading
20:08:50  <mikolalysenko>for high d, kdtree queries are so slow you wouldn't even want to bother building them
20:09:00  <mikolalysenko>but in small/medium spaces it can be reasonable
20:09:14  <mikolalysenko>in high dimensions, the problem with range trees is that constructing them just takes too much space and time
20:09:19  <mikolalysenko>since they are exponential in d
20:09:42  <pfraze>yeah
20:10:13  <pfraze>so I remember doing some graphics programming a bit ago, for 3d we were using binary trees and octrees to do range queries
20:10:59  <mikolalysenko>octrees are kind of terrible for range searching
20:11:13  <mikolalysenko>they are strictly slower than kdtrees at everything
20:11:24  <pfraze>ok, I'm a bit rusty on this - is that because they're bad, or bad for that purpose?
20:11:34  <mikolalysenko>they're just not a good data structure
20:11:37  <pfraze>ok
20:11:40  <mikolalysenko>the problem with octrees is that they aren't balanced
20:11:48  <mikolalysenko>so you don't get fast queries
20:11:52  <pfraze>yeah
20:12:00  <mikolalysenko>and inserting/deleting can become slow
20:12:11  <mikolalysenko>kind of like building a bst by just inserting points randomly
20:12:20  <mikolalysenko>if it isn't balanced, then it can take O(n) per query
20:12:23  <mikolalysenko>same deal with an octree
20:12:51  <mikolalysenko>now, on average assuming a totally uniform distribution of points random bsts are balanced
20:13:04  <mikolalysenko>and on uniform distributions of points, the same is approximately true for octrees
20:13:31  <mikolalysenko>so when you have a very uniform distribution of points they perform just a little bit worse than a kdtree
20:13:38  <mikolalysenko>just like a random bst
20:14:12  <mikolalysenko>but with anything less than totally uniform inputs, they are much slower
20:14:26  <pfraze>good to know
20:14:31  <mikolalysenko>this is kind of the exact opposite sort of behavior you want out of a search data structure
20:14:41  <mikolalysenko>data structures should get faster if there is regularity in your data, not slower
20:15:05  <mikolalysenko>that is, if you have lower entropy inputs it ought to speed things up
20:15:10  <pfraze>huh, yeah that makes sense
20:15:11  <mikolalysenko>but for octrees it is the opposite
20:15:40  <mikolalysenko>an example of a data structure that does speed up with lower entropy would be a splay tree, for example
20:16:13  <mikolalysenko>these things are called "dynamically optimal"
20:16:31  <mikolalysenko>octrees on the other hand are "dynamically pessimal"
20:16:43  <mikolalysenko>so, the tldr is don't use them
20:17:02  <mikolalysenko>kdtrees aren't dynamically optimal either, btw
20:17:14  <mikolalysenko>but at least they don't get worse as your data gets lower entropy
20:18:39  <pfraze>yeah. Cool, thanks for explaining!
20:19:20  <mikolalysenko>sure thing! there is a lot of bad info out there about this stuff, so it also pays to read online sources about this stuff carefully
20:19:21  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: what is the advantage of that over just npm install the modules and using them?
20:19:49  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: it'd for the browser, to support things like requirebin
20:20:04  <defunctzombie>but requirebin fetches its own stuff
20:20:09  <thlorenz>and ppl who don't wanna browserify things themselves
20:20:12  <defunctzombie>and serves it up right?
20:20:37  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea, but if they don't browserify themselves then they miss out on actually using modules like modules
20:20:40  <mikolalysenko>thlorenz: eventually you could do something like "browserify in a script tag"
20:20:40  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: if I understood jesusabdullah correctly it uses browserify-cdn to build the packages standalone
20:20:44  <defunctzombie>just becomes globals again
20:20:58  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: yep, but lets lower barrier to entry into browserify land
20:21:03  <mikolalysenko>where it takes the contents of a document, goes out browserify-cdn, and pulls in the stuff you need
20:21:07  <thlorenz>then ppl will start using npm and such eventually
20:21:17  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: you mean less barrier to using npm modules in script tags
20:21:30  <defunctzombie>cause it has little to do with browserify barrier
20:21:31  <mikolalysenko>so you could have browserify without having to install anything
20:21:37  <defunctzombie>since devs could provide builds anyway
20:21:37  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: get ppl hooked on browserify that's the goal
20:21:48  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: yeah, but devs shouldn't have to
20:21:49  <defunctzombie>but if they are not even using it.. how are they hooked on it ? :)
20:21:57  <defunctzombie>I agree devs shouldn't have to
20:22:05  <mikolalysenko>defunctzombie: the goal is to get them started on it
20:22:05  <thlorenz>they'll see how much stuff is possible with it
20:22:09  <defunctzombie>that is why install, require and build :)
20:22:13  * thlorenznods
20:22:13  <defunctzombie>I see
20:22:40  <defunctzombie>I am not against it... but also don't know if I see the immediate benefit.. tho certainly many many people just want to put something in a script tag
20:22:52  <defunctzombie>I personally prefer the fully educated approach
20:22:59  <defunctzombie>but whatever works I guess
20:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 41]
20:23:09  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: yes but they'll do it anyways, so lets give'em the CDN + educate where we can
20:23:18  <defunctzombie>haha
20:24:04  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: also to be honest I still believe that pulling monsters like THREE from a CDN is a good idea since it will use the browser cache the second time it sees it
20:24:29  <defunctzombie>why do you need fastly to support it?
20:24:36  <defunctzombie>so people actually use it as a CDN?
20:24:39  <thlorenz>it's not stable enough right now
20:24:48  <thlorenz>we need to add caching
20:25:06  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: you could, but also just to get a standalone browserify module
20:25:07  <defunctzombie>I *personally* am against relying on someone's CDNs for all your deployed things
20:25:40  <defunctzombie>against may be too strong...
20:25:43  * cpupquit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
20:25:50  <defunctzombie>like I am not morally objecting to it.. I think it is bad practice
20:25:50  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: I can see the disadvantages there, but making ppl use THREE each time they go to a different website is not a good idea IMO
20:26:00  <defunctzombie>why?
20:26:12  <defunctzombie>also.. maybe time to think about smaller library?
20:26:18  <defunctzombie>or in reality maybe it doesn't matter
20:26:20  <thlorenz>cuz it's already in their browser cache
20:26:25  <defunctzombie>how many websites with three do people go to
20:26:26  <thlorenz>just under a different url each time
20:26:33  <defunctzombie>sure.. or maybe the wrong version
20:26:39  <thlorenz>ok THREE same thing jquery
20:26:41  <defunctzombie>I think the incorrect thing is being optimized
20:26:48  <defunctzombie>or prematurely optimized
20:26:50  <defunctzombie>or something
20:26:58  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: urls contain version numbers for properly setup cdns
20:27:17  <defunctzombie>how big is THREE ?
20:27:20  <defunctzombie>also whatever THREE is
20:27:25  <defunctzombie>and why is it uppercase?
20:27:27  <thlorenz>maybe, but tell that to someone with an expensive data plan who uses his bandwidth loading jquery 10 times a day
20:27:28  <defunctzombie>is it that important?
20:27:45  <thlorenz>it's upper case cause it's BIG
20:27:56  <defunctzombie>big relative to what?
20:27:56  * cpupjoined
20:28:05  <defunctzombie>the flickr image album the user downloads?
20:28:09  <defunctzombie>or the facebook photo gallery
20:28:13  <defunctzombie>or the spotify media stream?
20:28:26  <defunctzombie>or the espn streaming show?
20:28:56  <defunctzombie>I mean if your concern is loading jquery 10 times a day is hurting a user's bandwidth... I dunno.. I feel like that is a google or facebook scale problem
20:29:03  <defunctzombie>not a ... I need to start learning some JS problem
20:29:10  <defunctzombie>and wanna put up a site
20:29:16  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: so this big: curl -L https://github.com/mrdoob/three.js/raw/master/build/three.js | wc -l
20:29:22  <thlorenz>37760
20:29:33  <defunctzombie>lines?
20:29:36  <thlorenz>correct
20:29:38  <defunctzombie>what is that in bytes?
20:29:41  <defunctzombie>gzipped
20:29:55  <defunctzombie>probably less than my avatar image
20:30:13  <thlorenz>hold on
20:31:01  <defunctzombie>I think the browserify CDN is a cool project just from a look what we can do standpoint
20:33:08  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: so 102400 bytes after tar cvf
20:33:15  <thlorenz>of the minified version
20:33:24  <defunctzombie>100k
20:33:51  <defunctzombie>potentially painful on a bad mobile connection.. but so will the site experience if there is anything else to download
20:33:56  <defunctzombie>on a fast mobile it won't matter at all
20:34:06  <thlorenz>yep that's pretty big overall, add bootstrap, etc or what else ppl use and you get to 1MB before you know it
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20:34:29  <defunctzombie>and at 1mb honestly with modern tech (depending on your target audience) it is not even a blip
20:34:48  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: yeah so I do CDN to be considerate of developing countries :P
20:35:01  <defunctzombie>rofl
20:35:41  <thlorenz>actually it's more serious than you think, lots of ppl there will have smart phones w/out ever having owned a computer
20:35:53  <thlorenz>and internet is gonna be sketchy in those areas
20:35:58  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: https://twitter.com/defunctzombie/status/455806626478317568
20:36:18  <thlorenz>so I don't know if it's morally correct to not use CDN b/c defunctzombie thinks it is immoral to use them ;)
20:36:27  <defunctzombie>hahaha
20:36:36  <defunctzombie>I didn't say immoral :)
20:36:46  <defunctzombie>just.. a sin
20:36:59  <thlorenz>ah, ok - totally different :)
20:37:02  <defunctzombie>:D
20:37:32  <mikolalysenko>I don't know if cdn is maybe the right word for it, but the idea of browserify as a service is pretty good
20:37:34  <defunctzombie>I think if you can get fastly to just sponsor it that would be cool again from a "look what we can do" standpoint
20:37:51  <mikolalysenko>something that lets people use npm modules WITHOUT installing stuff is a huge deal
20:38:14  <defunctzombie>that is basically what the CDN is
20:38:18  <defunctzombie>if you curl it
20:38:30  <defunctzombie>or just use the script tag
20:38:38  <thlorenz>ok so we all agree in the end \o/
20:38:49  <thlorenz>(one way or the other)
20:39:31  <defunctzombie>the thing I like about the CDN (or whatever it is called) is that maybe module authors will stop putting the UMD and other wrapper crap in their code and just point people to the prepared dist file that works
20:39:36  <defunctzombie>but that is likely too much to ask
20:39:44  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: that is one goal
20:40:01  <thlorenz>you can just put a browserify cdn url into the readme
20:40:07  <defunctzombie>yea
20:40:28  <defunctzombie>but again..now this thing has to be responsible for internet traffic for users
20:40:33  <defunctzombie>do you want that responsibility :)
20:40:44  <thlorenz>no I want fastly to have that responsibility
20:40:51  <defunctzombie>haha
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21:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 29]
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22:11:48  <guybrush>i think its better to distribute things instead of having one blessed service
22:12:27  <guybrush>just make a module that you can start and it installs all the things automagically for you from all the distributed npms
22:15:23  <guybrush>i mean the things even already exist with browserify-cdn and requirebin
22:23:06  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 21]
22:27:29  <mikolalysenko>guybrush: that already exists though, you can just browserify
22:27:43  <mikolalysenko>guybrush: the problem is it doesn't work in a browser
22:28:06  <substack>http://substack.net/images/lebron.png
22:28:18  <guybrush>mh no i mean you can run browserify-cdn and requirebin locally
22:30:00  <guybrush>but anyway its a huge win to be able to point people at wzrd.in
22:30:50  <guybrush>which is like a magical place where all your dreams come true by just casting require-spells
22:31:38  <guybrush>though i need to get git-urls and individual module-versions in :p
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22:35:03  <guybrush>substack: where is leveldb in this logo? :DD
22:36:13  <substack>guybrush: it's below the n
22:36:19  <substack>http://leveldb.org/
22:36:57  <guybrush>oooh ok im so used to the logo on rvagg's sites
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22:38:13  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.27.70(dev-ie6-1)
22:39:03  <mikolalysenko>substack: what is lebron.png for?
22:40:35  <substack>mikolalysenko: http://lebron.technology/
22:42:30  <mikolalysenko>hahaha, awesome name!
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22:45:35  <pfraze>lolol @ lebron.png
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23:23:05  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 24]
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