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00:08:25  <Domenic>hmm i don't think i knew that
00:08:39  <Domenic>sounds like "close" <=> "destroy() has done its thing"
00:17:02  <Raynos>Domenic: yes, except "close" will emit when you call end() and the stream ends naturally, i.e. it emits for both hard ends and natural ends
00:17:23  <Raynos>also "close" is deprecated wrt streams2 since its redundant for Writable streams
00:18:13  <Raynos>SUCH NUANCE
00:18:14  <LOUDBOT>DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER WHICH IS WHY I JUST GAVE YOU SOME BEADS INSTEAD
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01:32:39  <thealphanerd>anyone going to maker faire this weekend?
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01:46:29  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 184.106.99.27 (dev-ie7-3)
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04:18:28  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
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04:45:29  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 166.78.114.172 (dev-ie11-2)
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07:41:29  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3)
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09:42:23  <ogd>Raynos: would it be antithetical to mercury's philosophy to use html templates as the basis for the initial app state (as opposed to doing only h())?
09:42:38  <Raynos>ogd: no. server side rendering is fine
09:42:53  <Raynos>ogd: I was looking into a handlebars -> function (opts) { return h(...) } compiler btw
09:43:39  <Raynos>ogd: note that you still want to use h() for anything interactive, and that syncing a virtual tree into a server rendered DOM tree that are NOT identical is non trivial
09:45:20  <Raynos>ogd: what are you trying to achieve, the performance of server side rendering or a html based templating system instead of h() ?
09:46:47  <Raynos>ogd: btw mercury's philosophy is both "truly modular" as in it allows all opinions and "truly opinionated" as in it has a default set of FRP opinions.
09:46:49  <ogd>Raynos: i generally like to have my app templates be plain html files
09:47:12  <Raynos>for static things or for interactive things?
09:47:21  <ogd>both
09:47:55  <ogd>Raynos: so if i had a rendered dom tree
09:48:05  <ogd>Raynos: and i wanted to create a virtual tree from it
09:48:22  <Raynos>there's no function to turn dom into virtual yet
09:48:37  <Raynos>there's an open issue ( https://github.com/Matt-Esch/virtual-dom/issues/49 )
09:48:40  <ogd>ah cool
09:48:48  <ogd>yea that would be sweet
09:48:58  <ogd>cause then i could make a UI component module that has plain css, html files
09:49:22  <substack>Raynos: why is hyperscript baked in?
09:49:39  <substack>mercury.h seems somewhat anti-modular
09:50:05  <Raynos>ogd: note that having a virtual tree wont do much
09:50:05  <Raynos>to apply any changes you need a function that generates a new virtual tree
09:50:05  <Raynos>and if you have one you might as well generate the initial virtual tree from the raw data instead of the rendered dom tree
09:51:15  <ogd>Raynos: but what if my 'raw data' is just a html file?
09:51:39  <Raynos>substack: https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/index.js#L5-L29
09:51:45  <ogd>Raynos: e.g. <input value=3>hello</input>, couldn't that be equivalent to h('input', 3) or whatever
09:51:50  <Raynos>substack: mercury is supposed to be an opinionated meta model
09:52:17  <Raynos>ogd: how do you plan to add interactivity to this static html
09:52:22  <Raynos>meta package*
09:52:56  <Raynos>substack: "normal" web developers want a more batteries included meta package. "modular" developers can use the individual modules directly
09:55:24  <ogd>Raynos: i am trying to write a mercury app now that has a lot of html but only some of it is interactive, so i would ideally be able to load the html and then declare which parts should be interactive, in a similar way to how e.g. https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/examples/bmi-counter.js#L51-L56 is declared, but rather than it implicitly creating
09:55:24  <ogd>the html it would just augment existing html
09:56:03  <Raynos>ogd: so you can write many small mercury apps each anchored to a container elements
09:56:11  <Raynos>so you can have a static html page with 5 "interactive" containers
09:56:32  <ogd>ahh interseting
09:56:37  <ogd>interesting*
09:56:49  <Raynos>ogd: there was talk of the notion of a "tombstone", being able to mark a dom element in the dom tree as invisible to mercury
09:56:51  <Raynos>so it would skip it
09:57:10  <Raynos>this way you can have one mercury app and mark all static container elements as tombstoned
09:57:33  <ogd>but then I would still have to have a 1:1 relationship between the virtual dom declaration and the static dom (written in html)
09:57:47  <ogd>whereas i really want the virtual dom (in js) to be an 'overlay'
09:58:05  <ogd>a sparse overlay, e.g. only declare the interactive parts
09:58:21  <ogd>and have the virtual dom module fill in the pieces i didn't declare by reading the html
09:58:34  <ogd>(fill in it's virtual tree)
09:58:56  <ogd>that way i dont have to write 100% of my app's html in JS, i can just use html for html
09:59:00  <Raynos>ogd: no you need a 1:1 relationship between the interactive parts of the static dom and the virtual dom, and mark all the parts that are ingnored in the virtual dom as tombstones
10:00:01  <Raynos>ogd: but tbh, i think you can get a lot of milage for just doing `mercury.app($('#thingy'), smallStateA, smallRenderA); mercury.app($('#tingy2'),smallStateB, smallRenderB);`
10:00:23  <ogd>yea i'll try that for now
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10:01:20  <Raynos>ogd: you might run into minor perf issues as i havnt done the optimization of having multiple apps share a raf loop yet
10:01:43  <Raynos>this will probably not be a big deal
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10:03:57  <substack>domanic: been using npmd a lot lately while traveling, has been working very well!
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10:05:53  <domanic>substack, sweet!
10:06:15  <substack>including during a talk
10:08:06  <domanic>wow at nodebp?
10:09:54  <substack>yep
10:10:12  <substack>that projector was nothing but trouble but many of my demos still worked at least
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10:13:45  <domanic>substack, the best thing at jsconf au was that the projector was weird for everyone on mac,
10:13:59  <domanic>but when I plugged it in it worked straight away
10:14:15  <domanic>So I was like "Linux, it Just Works"
10:14:47  <Raynos>ogd: open issues / tweet / let me know if you get stuck
10:15:04  <Raynos>ogd: there might be some rough edges of "oh i never thought of that"
10:15:12  <ogd>Raynos: cool will do, i'm trying to port this couchapp i wrote 3 years ago to use mercury http://max.iriscouch.com/music/_design/recline/_rewrite
10:16:31  <Raynos>ogd: is that a couch database gui or a web app ?
10:16:53  <ogd>its a client side app that lets you manage tabular data in couch
10:17:23  <ogd>its how i edit the music in my crappy itunes clone http://music.pouch.io/
10:18:13  <ogd>but i need it to work like google spreadsheets where it's live updating
10:18:27  <ogd>(and this time it will be on top of dat and not couch)
10:18:29  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
10:21:01  <Raynos>ogd: cool :)
10:21:19  <Raynos>ogd: if you do the whole github + PRs thing, cc me on PRs and ill code review things
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10:40:29  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 166.78.114.172(dev-ie11-2)
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11:49:39  <substack>domanic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cAdJ3Ns1gE
11:50:49  <domanic>substack, nice!
11:57:27  <substack>domanic: I've also been working on a trick for getting pull-stream style reading from ordinary streams2 streams
11:59:27  <domanic>substack, interesting, how does it work?
12:00:54  <substack>you can save the buf and next from the _writer callback
12:00:57  <substack>*_write
12:01:38  <substack>and then when you want to pull you check this._buffer to see if it is already defined and if so you call the supplied callback with cb(buf, next)
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12:02:08  <substack>or probably it should just kick off the next() automatically at that point and call _pull when it wants another chunk
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12:02:41  <substack>and if the chunk hasn't arrived yet it gets scheduled
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13:10:59  <ogd>Raynos: any particular reason why you only exposed require('geval/multiple') and not also require('geval')?
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13:23:59  <ogd>Raynos: also why is _diff on my data if I edit it
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13:30:19  <ogd>Raynos: in my render function I ended up having to put special code in to ignore _diff
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13:41:30  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3)
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14:15:08  <substack>ogd: one of your talks should be about binary and close to the metal and feature a metal solo
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17:02:20  <Raynos>ogd: mercury exposes a subset of its dependencies to reduce the bundle size, if you want more things you can require them directly
17:02:28  <Raynos>ogd: although im thinking of exposing geval directly
17:02:44  <ogd>ahh gotcha
17:02:56  <ogd>its just weird to have to do ['foo'] when you only have one event
17:02:59  <Raynos>ogd: _diff is a special property that tells you what the set() operation was that causes the data to change
17:03:18  <Raynos>I think I need to make _diff non-enumerable
17:03:24  <ogd>ahh yea
17:03:49  <Raynos>_diff is useful for debugging, `window.state(function (s) { console.log('op', s._diff) })`
17:05:16  <Raynos>ogd: so i would expose geval directly on mercury but i dont know what to call it :P .event() and .input() are already taken
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17:10:08  <Raynos>ogd: btw, I have two non trivial examples hidden on branches ( https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/pull/33 , https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/pull/34 ). In case you wanted to look at other examples
17:11:19  <ogd>Raynos: oh cool
17:11:24  <ogd>Raynos: i think i 'get' it now, mostly
17:11:37  <ogd>still getting used to the event triggering
17:12:24  <Raynos>the concept of components ( https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/tree/github-issues/examples/github-issues-viewer/components , http://jsfiddle.net/4RUxn/1/ )
17:12:36  <Raynos>is one not shown anywhere else in examples on master currently
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17:21:37  <domanic>Raynos, what is geval?
17:22:11  <Raynos>domanic: https://github.com/Raynos/geval#what-about-dominictarrobservable-
17:22:25  <Raynos>like observable that don't have a notion of "current state"
17:22:32  <Raynos>geval is the dutch word for "event"
17:24:56  <domanic>oh I see. the api looks good!
17:25:23  <domanic>my dutch isn't very good though, so I thought it was something about evaling
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17:58:44  <Raynos>ogd: I think ill make mercury.input() with no args return a geval and mercury.input([]) return an empty object
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18:16:20  <pfraze>domanic, still digging into that "no deadlocks" claim
18:16:46  <pfraze>the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadlock wiki lists the coffman conditions, which are 4 conditions which must all be true to cause a deadlock. Remove one, apparently the deadlock cant happen
18:17:26  <pfraze>in page 64 of http://soft.vub.ac.be/~tvcutsem/talks/presentations/T37_nobackground.pdf, it talks about what the event-loop model of elang does
18:18:06  <domanic>aha, it just so happens that I have an erland expert sitting next to me!
18:18:29  <pfraze>oh yeah? can he answer this for us?
18:19:20  <pfraze>(to finish my thought: as far as I can guess, the event-loop removes either conditions 1 or 2 of coffman's conditions, though I'm not totally sure yet)
18:19:35  <pfraze>that is, the event loop + async messaging
18:20:05  <domanic>aha, so he says it IS possible to deadlock erlang
18:20:30  <domanic>except that it's quite obvious and easy to ignore
18:22:31  <pfraze>domanic, it was originally E-lang making this "no deadlocks" claim - but I think erlang has an identical async-messaging and event-loop model, yes?
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18:31:12  <Raynos>ogd: btw there is a `#virtualdom` room for mercury / virtual-dom related questions
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18:32:53  <domanic>oh yes - so it's possible for two nodes to simultaniously send a request to the other
18:33:06  <domanic>and then block while waiting for the response
18:33:25  <domanic>but there are libraries that prevent you from making this simple mistake.
18:34:11  <pfraze>could you point me to one or two of them?
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18:36:17  <domanic>pfraze, http://www.erlang.org/doc/man/gen_server.html
18:36:50  <pfraze>domanic, thanks
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18:44:08  <nrw>anyone know what causes testling to try tests in one browser and then give up? https://ci.testling.com/nrw/level-commit
18:44:30  <nrw>build is successful. ie 8 tests time out. no other tests run.
18:50:41  <groundwater_>can i require('https') in browserify?
18:50:53  <groundwater_>my first attempt didn't work, but i might just be doing it wrong
18:50:56  <groundwater_>ogd: substack ^
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19:41:30  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3)
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21:18:01  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 10)
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22:48:51  <Raynos>substack, domanic, ogd, feross, defunctzombie: I wrote a thing about web components based ( https://gist.github.com/Raynos/f055082c473e0484e9d5 ). I tried to figure out what they bring to the table for small modules people.
22:49:23  <phated>defunctzombie: I was looking through the zuul commit history and there used to be a programatic API, is that gone now?
22:49:36  <defunctzombie>phated: it is still there
22:49:44  <defunctzombie>phated: not really documented much but if you look at the tests
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22:49:47  <defunctzombie>you will see how it is used
22:49:52  <defunctzombie>also the bin/zuul file uses it
22:50:13  <phated>defunctzombie: cool, related, i just want to run zuul on a directory of tests, is that possible with the cli?
22:50:29  <defunctzombie>phated: yea
22:50:37  <defunctzombie>should accept *.js
22:50:39  <defunctzombie>just fine
22:51:02  <phated>awesome, thanks
22:51:19  <phated>is that globbing from node or *nix command line?
22:51:20  <Raynos>if anyone has any other questions / ideas / concepts about web components would be cool to brainstorm, maybe provide feedback
22:51:33  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I don't understand the custom elements stuff
22:51:44  <defunctzombie>phated: command line iirc
22:51:48  <phated>thanks
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22:52:05  <Raynos>defunctzombie: it allows you to say export bootstrap modal component as a widget so designers can just `<bootstrap-modal>` in their prototype static html things
22:52:23  <defunctzombie>I see
22:53:12  <defunctzombie>modal is weird tho because you might want to create custom modals so it has a combination of templating (maybe) and js interaction
22:54:02  <defunctzombie>my thoughts on web components is that there won't be a one size fits all approach :/
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22:54:17  <defunctzombie>the topic is just too complex and still heavily debated and contested
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22:54:49  <defunctzombie>shadow dom is cool with the only real benefit being that you can limit the scope of custom css
22:54:55  <Raynos>defunctzombie: agreed but you can do <bootstrap-tab> </bootstrap-tab/>
22:55:09  <Raynos>so it's like a more self documenting thing then the html / css you copy psate from bootstrap docs
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22:55:21  <Raynos>defunctzombie: it also allows you to refactor internal css classes without rbeaking changes
22:55:32  <Raynos>defunctzombie: and other things, its a good export format just like UMD
22:56:58  <defunctzombie>I haven't given the web components spec stuff too much thought yet
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22:57:07  <defunctzombie>or read over anything written about it other than shadow dom
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23:03:24  <domanic>Raynos, In this bit: import a WC written in angular without having to "suffer" from the "design decisions" of angular.
23:03:45  <domanic>you shouldn't quote "suffer" and "design decisions"
23:03:57  <domanic>that lessens your scarcasm
23:04:29  <domanic>it's more pjerotive if you only scare-quote "design decisions"
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23:05:20  <Raynos>domanic: Sorry, i got cocky
23:05:46  <domanic>haha, now I see you scare quoting stuff like "HTML"
23:06:48  <Raynos>domanic: i need to de-opinion / de-asshole this entire gist
23:06:49  <domanic>if you want to be even more scarcastic than "scare quotes" you can say so-called "scare quotes"
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23:09:37  <Raynos>ok i edited to remove some lulz
23:11:44  <mikolalysenko>the shadow dom actually seems like a pretty good idea, but maybe there are horrible consequences I've not realized yet
23:12:20  <mikolalysenko>the main reason is interoperability/framework independence of web components
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23:14:41  <domanic>Raynos, your article needs a conclusion
23:15:46  <domanic>Raynos, I think the main requirement for modules is encapsulation and nesting - it seems like web components promise that, but do they deliver?
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23:24:35  <Raynos>domanic: i guess i can use a conclusion
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23:59:34  <jjjohnny>tbh i dont see what web components do that a div with a class and an id didnt
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