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00:24:32  <mikolalysenko>semantic versioning is kind of a punt on a hard problem
00:24:41  <mikolalysenko>though I guess it seems to be working for now
00:25:32  <mikolalysenko>really what you want is some system to say when the interface for a module changed, and if the module broke any API contracts in the process
00:25:58  <mikolalysenko>but short of formal verification/model checking you have to rely on the honor system to make it work
00:26:46  <mikolalysenko>which is fine I suppose, but if someone really wanted to pick a fight about modules and dependencies they could always play this card and it would be tough to refute
00:27:17  <mikolalysenko>since semver only works if module authors are playing by the rules
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00:33:59  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 13]
00:54:28  <defunctzombie>grncdr: np-fetch .. have you seen the npm-fetch module?
01:02:35  <mikolalysenko>also question re bower: are there any examples of modules in bower that fail due to the "diamond dependency problem"?
01:02:50  <mikolalysenko>that is module X requires [email protected], module Z requires [email protected]
01:02:59  <mikolalysenko>installing both X and Z in bower breaks
01:03:46  <mikolalysenko>(I understand this is a problem, but am looking for a concrete example of it in bower)
01:07:06  <mikolalysenko>I am just guessing that there is probably some example of this where Y=jQuery, angular or whatever bloated frontend stuff is popular today
01:07:13  <mikolalysenko>and X/Z are two different widget libraries
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01:27:37  <mikolalysenko>whatever, I just pulled the trigger and posted it: https://github.com/bionode/bionode/issues/9
01:33:59  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 12]
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01:41:44  <chapel>mikolalysenko: as far as I know, bower does dependencies flat, so there isn't a way to have two versions of the same lib
01:42:11  <mikolalysenko>yeah, I know that. I was trying to find an example of something concrete that breaks it
01:42:21  <mikolalysenko>but I ended up kind of punting on it, since I agree that it can happen in theory
01:42:32  <mikolalysenko>and have had it happen in practice (in python)
01:42:51  <mikolalysenko>but was trying to find a good web-centric case where bower just explodes
01:43:00  <chapel>also I'm not sure if bower actually does proper dependencies, and is more focused on the user installing what they need and tracking it
01:43:05  <mikolalysenko>yeah
01:43:17  <mikolalysenko>but I was looking for something where you do: bower install foo bar
01:43:22  <chapel>yeah
01:43:23  <mikolalysenko>and then it neither foo nor bar works
01:43:39  <mikolalysenko>thus demonstrating the folly of bower
01:43:54  <mikolalysenko>(and doubly so since you needed npm to install that boondoggle in the first place!)
01:44:24  <chapel>npm and node_modules switching to local by default really allowed dependencies to be valuable
01:44:42  <chapel>I honestly believe that if that had not happened, you wouldn't get as much creativity with modules
01:45:00  <mikolalysenko>oh, for sure
01:45:10  <mikolalysenko>I think part of npm's success is accidental
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01:45:26  <mikolalysenko>for example, systems like component or cargo are actually *worse* than npm
01:45:31  <chapel>I agree, then again, I'm sure isaacs would say so as well
01:45:42  <mikolalysenko>despite the fact that they claim to improve it by being more "distributed"
01:46:09  <mikolalysenko>but the fact that npm has a central authority (perhaps due to technical limitations) actually means that it solves this module naming problem
01:46:18  <chapel>yeah
01:46:42  <mikolalysenko>of course one could imagine a distributed solution, though I am doubtful it would actually represent an improvement
01:46:50  <chapel>namespaces may give it more flexibility going forward as well
01:46:52  <mikolalysenko>since you could get squatters and malicious modules
01:46:57  <mikolalysenko>that's also true
01:47:16  <chapel>not sure if it is going to be widely used outside of private npm though
01:48:47  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.171.229 (dev-ie6-2)
01:49:17  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.174.105 (dev-ie8-2)
01:51:35  <substack>npmcoin
01:51:47  <mikolalysenko>substack: why not?
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07:00:59  <thealphanerd>substack / jjjohnny_ : https://github.com/gordol/malloc-ld_preload-sounds
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07:42:24  <grncdr>defunctzombie - yes, np-fetch is not really every going to be published, I just needed it on github for science
07:43:48  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
07:44:18  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.174.105(dev-ie8-2)
07:45:13  <grncdr>mikolalysenko: "but the fact that npm has a central authority (perhaps due to technical limitations) actually means that it solves this module naming problem" I have heard this was an intentional hack to create a false scarcity and encourage more publishing
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08:14:18  <jbenet>Hey people-hanging-out-at-#stackvm -- an awesome side project i'm helping out with is looking for node.js hackers to help us build a plugin. (Paid part or full time positions available). See formal details (it's part of a lab at MIT) here: http://goo.gl/ndtgSq and prototype here: http://jbenet.github.io/sci-nav/ -- builds upon the awesome work of
08:14:18  <jbenet>hypothes.is (dwhly + tilgovi). And would be working with Ed Boyden (neuroscientist techno-wizard extraordinare). This would also help down the road with the work ogd's spearheading with dat.
08:20:23  <jbenet>actually, mikolalysenko would you be interested? -- and, is there some site where we can post such node-quests?
08:20:58  <jbenet>i'd really like to do away with jobs and replace them with quests. (cc domanic)
08:22:32  <domanic>agree, quests are much better. you acomplish them and get to return the the shire.
08:37:57  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 71]
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09:14:07  <ogd>jbenet: can you make a issue in some repo somewhere (doesnt matter where) with a description of the job that I can share?
09:14:12  <ogd>jbenet: s/job/quest
09:14:40  <jbenet>ogd: sweet, thanks!
09:17:37  <ogd>mikolalysenko: nice comment, you should blog that
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10:00:00  <jbenet>ogd: https://github.com/jbenet/quests/issues/1
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10:41:17  <jbenet>mikolalysenko you work on plotly!? whaaaat small world man.
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13:07:53  <juliangruber>ogd: are you still in berlin? i wasn't in irc for a while :/
13:08:19  <juliangruber>substack: is http://git.testling.com and content-type: application/json the right github webhook config? i'm getting "Service Timeout" in their ui
13:08:24  <juliangruber>for isarray
13:08:35  <ogd>juliangruber: ahh dang, nope im in copenhagen now until next monday
13:08:45  <juliangruber>mk
13:08:48  <juliangruber>next time :)
13:08:51  <juliangruber>how was berlin?
13:11:05  <substack>juliangruber: try now
13:11:24  <substack>we've been running out of memory on that machine which causes the process to not spin back correctly
13:11:44  <juliangruber>substack: Body
13:11:44  <juliangruber>Error: empty payload
13:12:04  <juliangruber>substack: https://cloudup.com/cMp6n4vy7-S
13:12:25  <Domenic>LevelDB people: what is a good-looking transaction API? Hoping to copy it for web stuff
13:13:20  <juliangruber>Domenic: like db.batch()?
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13:14:22  <Domenic>juliangruber: sure, link?
13:14:40  <substack>juliangruber: try the urlencoded one
13:14:48  <juliangruber>Domenic: https://github.com/rvagg/node-levelup#batch_chained
13:14:51  <juliangruber>substack: ok
13:15:21  <juliangruber>substack: success!
13:16:09  <substack>github keeps changing their shit, really annoying
13:17:00  <substack>anyways hope to have the self-hosted version of testling-server finished soonish
13:17:17  <substack>then we'll just swap out our internal version for the public version
13:17:28  <substack>and people can help us stomp these kinds of bugs
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13:19:03  <juliangruber>substack: that would be sweet
13:19:16  <juliangruber>substack: also, is it usual that github is caching badges again?
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13:23:07  <substack>juliangruber: probably
13:24:14  <substack>github loves to break things that were working fine previously
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13:39:16  <Domenic>juliangruber: well that was easy. Pretty sure that's going in browsers now (for the cache API)
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13:42:49  <substack>Domenic: the array form is much nicer though
13:42:54  <substack>since you can specify data as data
13:43:02  <substack>instead of specifying data through some wonky chaining api
13:43:06  <substack>even if that chained api is faster
13:43:09  <substack>https://github.com/rvagg/node-levelup#batch
13:43:39  <Domenic>substack: what do you mean "data as data"?
13:43:49  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
13:44:18  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.174.105(dev-ie8-2)
13:44:31  <substack>Domenic: a batch is a sequence of data operations which are ordinary javascript objects
13:44:48  <Domenic>substack: I see
13:44:51  <substack>the chaining api turns that into a sequence of statements
13:45:33  <substack>the array form makes it very easy to fetch data from someplace and stuff it into leveldb
13:45:41  <substack>like db.batch(require('./data.json'))
13:47:15  <substack>instead of var b = db.batch(); require('./data.json').forEach(function (row) { b[row.type](row.key, row.value) })
14:08:18  <calvinmetcalf>substack: last time I did stuff with it (which was a while ago) the batch and chained where the same speed, just different kinds of speed
14:09:20  <calvinmetcalf>chained version blocked a bit every time you called a method, and the array one took a similar amount of time to get back to you with the callback (eg amount of time that all the methods blocked)
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15:19:36  <mikolalysenko>jbenet: Yep! Though part time mostly
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19:43:49  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
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19:44:19  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.174.105(dev-ie8-2)
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21:09:54  <isaacs>creationix: that's pretty rad
21:10:03  <isaacs>creationix: feature-parity patch welcome, of course.
21:10:15  <isaacs>creationix: we can discuss/evaluate doing other cleverer stuff later, of course.
21:10:34  <isaacs>creationix: but removing an external sys dep is a strict improvement, definitely.
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23:06:07  <jjjohnny_>idea: ASIC chipset wifi routers that auto man-in-middle u FTW
23:06:35  <jjjohnny_>they MITM u and add encryption
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23:10:18  <jjjohnny_>i offer this as I do any idea, for ridicule
23:10:48  * jjjohnny_ridiculous
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23:36:47  <mikolalysenko>encryption doesn't work without authentication/identification
23:37:02  <mikolalysenko>otherwise you can still get mitm'd
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