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00:23:38  <jjjohnny>ircretary: ask domanic if npmd is actually ready 2 b d, and if so then could any file system with every module installed be used as a stub registry?
00:23:38  <ircretary>jjjohnny: I'll tell domanic you asked.
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00:34:40  <jjjohnny>hey npm is sexy silent now
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01:19:09  <domanic>jjjohnny, npmd can't really be distributed until npm has signatures
01:21:18  <jjjohnny>domanic: ok so we add sigs into the scheme
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01:21:54  <jjjohnny>we npm install every module to an fs, sign em, then what
01:24:42  <domanic>jjjohnny, then we distribute the "registry" via a gossip protocol (or similar) and then the tarballs via bittorrent (or similar)
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01:25:28  <domanic>jjjohnny, the bottom half of secure scuttlebutt will be a replicatable database with signatures on every update.
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01:25:47  <domanic>If you where to build a package manager on top of it you would get signatures for free
01:26:15  <domanic>a package registry is just a database with packages and dependency information in it.
01:26:44  <domanic>you shouldn't build a secure package manager. you should just build a secure database, then make a package manager with it.
01:26:55  <jjjohnny>domanic: only storing metadata in the db, correct?
01:27:35  <domanic>as long as the hashes are signed and in the database it doesn't matter where the files are because they can be verified
01:28:12  <domanic>but basically, yes.
01:28:21  <domanic>you want everyone to replacate all the metadata
01:28:38  <domanic>but you only want to replacate the tarballs that you have actually used.
01:28:57  <domanic>this would be a feasible usage of resources
01:30:41  <ahdinosaur>domanic: +1 to ssb network topology being based on trust relationships, really happy to see someone else also thinking that peer-to-peer doesn't necessarily mean global
01:31:06  <domanic>ahdinosaur, thank you
01:31:36  <domanic>haha, that is what "peers" are iirc
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01:33:28  <jjjohnny>domanic: but I would have to store the tarballs in the scc to get the free sigs?
01:34:58  <domanic>jjjohnny, no - when you sign something, you hash it and then sign the hash
01:35:34  <domanic>or you put it's hash in something, hash that (optional: recursion) then sign that hash
01:36:11  <jjjohnny>so hash the tarball and throw it in sbb, get that for free?
01:36:53  <domanic>jjjohnny, correct
01:37:20  <jjjohnny>domanic: does npmd have a protocol for answering p2p calls?
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01:37:46  <domanic>jjjohnny, no, that part is all gonna be secure-scuttlebutt
01:37:46  <jjjohnny>this happened in the woods, iirc
01:38:18  <domanic>jjjohnny, oh in tahoe?
01:38:33  <jjjohnny>yeuh
01:39:13  <jjjohnny>probably a substack hack
01:39:23  <jjjohnny>a substack hack attack
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01:39:53  <domanic>we certainly talked about that.
01:40:20  <domanic>and about cycle/solar/cyber hobo conventions
01:40:44  <domanic>which reminds me, has a package arrived for me at stackhaus?
01:40:51  <domanic> / hackistan?
01:41:09  <jjjohnny>nopes
01:42:24  <domanic>hmm
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01:43:01  <jjjohnny>maybe some while back
01:43:06  <jjjohnny>i cant remember
01:43:18  <jjjohnny>nothing recent
01:44:29  <ahdinosaur>domanic: also, the dude at gundb.io answered some questions about their db: https://gist.github.com/ahdinosaur/6629fe835b75dafa96ae.
01:51:24  <domanic>ahdinosaur, I like how he puts this in terms of the speed of light! I approve
01:52:08  <ahdinosaur>he wants people to work with them, not sure in exactly what capacity
01:54:03  <domanic>I think we need to invite him into stackvm
01:54:41  <ahdinosaur>yeah, i mentioned it multiple times over the email convo, hopefully they'll come around
01:55:01  <domanic>ahdinosaur, awesome
01:55:56  <domanic>ahdinosaur, oh yeah - I remember I read your holon stuff on site a while ago
01:56:06  <ahdinosaur>:)
01:56:13  <domanic>also, have you heard of loom.io?
01:57:09  <ahdinosaur>yup, i actually am in NZ now hanging around the Enspiral network of which Loomio is part of
01:59:17  <domanic>haha, okay tell them I say hi
01:59:54  <ahdinosaur>sweet, can do
02:00:12  <domanic>ahdinosaur, how long are you in nz for?
02:00:31  <ahdinosaur>until the 25th, so not much longer
02:02:32  <domanic>aha very good, I'm not normally there this time of year, but wellington is one of my top 3 cities
02:04:05  <ahdinosaur>yeah, i've been loving it here
02:04:26  <ahdinosaur>i'll try to come back
02:05:22  <domanic>ahdinosaur, I hope you wern't there just in the winter! I'm back there every summer!
02:05:47  <ahdinosaur>haha, i was, but it's all good.
02:07:40  <ahdinosaur>in general, i've really enjoyed couch/desk-surfing around and want to figure out how to do it more.
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02:08:44  <domanic>just doing it is a big part, peolpe like to have interesting people stay on their couches
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02:10:56  <ahdinosaur>right okay. Enspiral has been a great help as it allowed me to meet people and become known, but once i adventure out i think it may be more difficult
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02:14:32  <domanic>hij1nx, https://github.com/dominictarr/json-logdb/blob/master/index.js#L22-L81
02:15:16  <domanic>ahdinosaur, yeah introductions help lots!
02:15:38  <domanic>there are spaces like enspiral in all sorts of places, though
02:16:57  <ahdinosaur>true
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02:20:16  <ahdinosaur>i guess it'll get easier with more trust relationships. ;) thanks domanic, i'm gonna get some food so brb.
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02:34:20  <domanic>ahdinosaur, another place i can recommend, is inspire9 in melbourne. Of course this is in australia so it is not as awesome as wellington but it's still cool
02:34:31  <ogd>mk30: your house in a few months https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks10RJ1ZKng
02:35:09  <domanic>hahaa
02:35:24  <mk30>ogd we actually almost got a new duck (someone found an abandoned wild baby duck near their houseboat)
02:35:32  <mk30>but one of my housemates put her foot down
02:35:38  <ogd>on the duck!??
02:35:44  <mk30>and it got taken to a wild animal rehabilitation place
02:36:05  <mk30>no, but the OTHER wild baby duck we had (oscar) almost got stepped on by one of the church kids next door.
02:36:06  <domanic>baby birds are very hard to look after, this was for the best.
02:36:13  <mk30>we've already raised one wild duck :P
02:36:32  <mk30>he was the smartest out of all of our dumb ducks.
02:36:33  <domanic>oh really? I'm impressed. mine died :(
02:36:36  <mk30>:(
02:36:40  <mk30>you need a heat lamp
02:36:53  <mk30>meaning a clamp-on lamp that you put very low
02:37:21  <domanic>I probably did not have a warm enough lamp
02:38:36  <mk30>our ducks are so dumb that they can't even tell that the automated duck feeder my housemate built for them is filled with food
02:39:22  <mk30>ogd this video is amazing
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02:41:46  <jjjohnny>confirmed
02:42:11  <jjjohnny>i counted more than 5000 ducks
02:42:57  <jjjohnny>but I did not see the gorilla
02:46:33  <jjjohnny>domanic: result of running ssb tests https://gist.github.com/NHQ/85fdf0ef22ebbdb892c1
02:47:32  <domanic>jjjohnny, running `npm test`?
02:47:40  <jjjohnny>yes
02:48:08  <domanic>can you try it again?
02:48:23  <jjjohnny>same
02:48:36  <domanic>also what commit are you on? d65a7bee705ff769388af97b8618b20e16730300 ?
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02:50:41  <jjjohnny>domanic: same
02:51:00  <jjjohnny>that is the first listed in git log
02:51:06  <domanic>correct
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02:51:48  <domanic>can you do: rm -rf /tmp/test-ssb* and try again?
02:52:04  <domanic>also, post the output of `npm ls`
02:52:32  <jjjohnny>no such /tmp/test-ssb
02:52:40  <domanic>sorry
02:52:51  <domanic>rm -rf ~/tmp/test-ssb*
02:54:21  <jjjohnny>gist updated with npm ls
02:55:20  <jjjohnny>no such ~/tmp/...
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02:58:11  <jjjohnny>domanic: ran test again with root privies, all ok
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02:59:16  <domanic>oh good.
02:59:24  <domanic>always run my code with root priviliges
02:59:37  <jjjohnny>r u srs?
03:01:17  <domanic>I am if you are
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03:08:31  <jjjohnny>i thought maybe it were a rwx permission thing
03:10:07  <jjjohnny>i created the tmp folder and that did it
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03:22:55  <domanic>oh interesting so you didn't have a ~/tmp before?
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03:29:31  <jjjohnny>nope but this computer new as of yesterday
03:30:16  <jjjohnny>domanic, so would a single module version lineage be one ssb feed?
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03:36:32  <domanic>jjjohnny, probably a feed would represent a single author
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03:56:00  <ahdinosaur>domanic: yay, data centered on identity. :) if at all possible, maybe try to think about supporting holons (a person or set of holons) as first-class identities. also called agents: http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_Agent.
03:57:43  <domanic>ahdinosaur, I can do it if a holon can be identified with a hash
03:59:16  <ahdinosaur>cool. i'll have to dive into ssb to learn more about the details when i get time.
04:00:02  <domanic>ahdinosaur, a holon is a loosly defined group of people, correct?
04:00:52  <ahdinosaur>yup, and they are recursive.
04:01:29  <domanic>recursive meaning they contain other holons?
04:02:02  <ahdinosaur>yeah.
04:03:04  <ahdinosaur>so my simple definition is a holon = a person or set of holons. foaf defines agent as either a person or group, where group members are agents.
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04:23:34  <domanic>ahdinosaur, right so you can have stuff like multikey signatures which you could use to represent the identity of a group, or you can point to the signatures of the members
04:24:16  <domanic>then traverse things the members have signed, and find other keys and thus refer to a group that way.
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04:58:10  <ahdinosaur>domanic: yeah, multiple keys as one would be awesome. :) it's better if you communicate with holons / agents more or less the same regardless if they are actually made up of multiple members, but that's the ideal case.
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05:01:51  <ahdinosaur>ircretary: tell domanic it's also ideal if you can mask the members' identity through the identity of the group
05:01:51  <ircretary>ahdinosaur: I'll be sure to tell domanic
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05:43:20  <feross>defunctzombie: just sent a PR to fix a bug in zuul https://github.com/defunctzombie/zuul/pull/67
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06:58:15  <jjjohnny>ssb isn't published yet <_<
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08:15:32  <mmckegg>yo substack, are you gonna be hacking around wellington tomorrow (thurs)? I was thinking of finding a nice spot for the afternoon (maybe raglan roast while it's open) then heading to enspiral at 6pm
08:17:24  <substack>mmckegg: yep!
08:17:34  <substack>raglan sounds good
08:18:39  <mmckegg>excellent!
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09:14:06  <jjjohnny>feross: are chrome and FF data streams interoperable yet?
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13:03:48  <ahdinosaur>mmckegg: ah right, enspiral at 6pm. :) maybe i'll come to raglan too.
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13:17:54  <mmckegg>ahdinosaur: haha yup, I have a few things to show based on what we talked about last thurs. hopefully you don't hate it :)
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13:25:34  <ahdinosaur>mmckegg: sweet as :)
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14:18:51  <domanic>ahdinosaur, masking individual identies is more complicated; you might have to help me figure that one out.
14:20:04  <domanic>but you could probably use something like a multikey signature to represent the group acting as a whole... I don't know very much a about how this works exactly though
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15:55:53  <Domenic>streams question for designing whatwg/streams: if you call (the equivalent of) `this.push('a')` after alreayd closing the stream via (the equivalent of) `this.push(null)`, what should happen? Error, or silent failure?
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15:56:51  <Domenic>by "error" I mean "the call to `this.push` throws an error" instead of "the stream becomes errored", because before you did that stupid thing hte stream was on track to close successfully, and it'd be silly to move it to errored state just because you did a stupid
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16:00:27  <ogd>mafintosh: o/
16:03:27  <othiym23>Domenic: silent failure is more "traditional JavaScript", throwing is probably more helpful for finding edge cases and subtle bugs
16:03:40  <Domenic>ya, that is kind of what i figured
16:03:51  <Domenic>i am more curious if people have experience with node streams that would point one way or another
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16:23:02  <mafintosh>Domenic: you should throw. you basically just use .push(...) when implementing your own stream i.e. you don't expose it to the module interface. therefore the convinience of having of it silenty error isn't really that useful.
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16:33:40  <jjjohnny>domanic: i'm missing something about ssb add method
16:34:14  <jjjohnny>the examples and tests show add('msg', 'text', cb), but the code reads otherwise
16:34:57  <jjjohnny>the add method accepts one string and a cb...
16:35:05  <domanic>oh right
16:35:34  <domanic>there is ssb.add(msg, cb) and feed.add(msg, type, cb)
16:36:24  <jjjohnny>a-ha
16:36:39  <domanic>that isn't documented very well, fixing
16:43:51  <domanic>jjjohnny, fixed.
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17:21:59  <defunctzombie>feross: I saw the PR
17:22:03  <defunctzombie>didn't have my computer last night
17:22:04  <defunctzombie>will merge
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17:53:51  <chrisdickinson>Domenic: I think node streams do their best to throw an error in that case: https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/master/lib/_stream_readable.js#L144-L145
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17:54:51  <chrisdickinson>though you can happily keep pushing EOFs forever and ever, and `unshift` still works.
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19:10:03  <jjjohnny>FUCK U NUM LOCK
19:10:03  <LOUDBOT>CERTIFICATE FAILED< LICK ABORTED
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19:25:24  <jjjohnny>domanic: package.json got fukked with somehow, fixed and PRed
19:25:48  <domanic>you added a memdb are you sure that is needed?
19:25:58  <jjjohnny>im testing browser
19:26:29  <jjjohnny>sorry, that could be left out
19:26:36  <jjjohnny>did i fuck up the package?
19:26:48  <jjjohnny>keyboard went all keyboard cat
19:27:01  <jjjohnny>anyway, is it futile to test in browser?
19:27:21  <jjjohnny>im getting a buffer instace error with package eccjs currently
19:28:05  <domanic>jjjohnny, ah it should work in the browser
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19:29:26  <jjjohnny>domanic: error from node_modules/eccjs/index.js:16
19:30:24  <domanic>jjjohnny, stacktrace?
19:31:10  <jjjohnny>basically from default.js
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19:31:44  <domanic>oh I think it might have been from if(!module.parent) ...
19:32:38  <domanic>jjjohnny, the actual stacktrace will be more helpful. default.js just wraps it
19:34:14  <jjjohnny>domanic: oh yeah its from !module.parent
19:34:31  <jjjohnny>its the second console.log
19:34:55  <jjjohnny>is there a better way to deliver a stack trace from chrome dev tools?
19:35:21  <domanic>than copy paste?
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19:36:44  <jjjohnny>https://gist.github.com/NHQ/511b477e8009b04c71eb
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19:37:41  <jjjohnny>yeah, than copy paste
19:38:41  <domanic>jjjohnny, are you just running this with testling cli?
19:39:27  <jjjohnny>nope
19:39:30  <domanic>jjjohnny, okay pushed an update - including to eccjs, should work now.
19:39:43  <domanic>jjjohnny, how are you running the browser tests?
19:39:47  <jjjohnny>i'll branch my efforts
19:40:00  <domanic>sweet
19:40:00  <jjjohnny>browserify
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19:48:27  <jjjohnny>domanic: error at validate.js:26,1 by way of index.js:24,5
19:48:34  <jjjohnny>can't read property hash of undefined
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19:50:10  <jjjohnny>https://github.com/NHQ/secure-scuttlebutt/blob/johnny/browser.js
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19:58:56  <jcrugzz>domanic: finally responded to my PR again ;). Also let me know when you have some time, we should get together while you are still in new york
20:23:19  <jjjohnny>nm
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20:42:03  <jjjohnny>domanic: but wait, what do i do when i don't want that one comment to be public record anymore?
20:44:00  <domanic>jjjohnny, how do you delete a message you have posted to secure scuttlebutt?
20:45:44  <jjjohnny>yes
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20:46:20  <jjjohnny>in the kitchen we said this is application level stuff iirc
20:47:55  <jjjohnny>but like the data is everywhere "u/\
20:51:14  * hoobdeeblajoined
21:09:01  <jjjohnny>PASSING THE SECURITY PUCK TO WHERE THE PUCK IS GOING TO BE
21:09:01  <LOUDBOT>THANKS A LOT ADOBE, YOUR SHIT USED TO BE A LOT EASIER TO PIRATE
21:09:38  <jjjohnny>ADOBE WOULD BE NOTHING WITHOUT PIRATES
21:09:38  <LOUDBOT>WTF, KLINGONS DON'T WEAR PLAID
21:13:04  <jjjohnny>INVASION OF THE KLINGSTERONS!!!
21:13:04  <LOUDBOT>AKAMAI IS NOT YOUR PERSONAL ARMY
21:14:34  <jjjohnny>THAT SYNDROME WHERE YOU SYM-PATH-ISE WITH YOUR EMPLOYER
21:14:34  <LOUDBOT>THE MAN READS ALL MY DESIGN DOCUMENTS
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21:33:29  <domanic>jjjohnny, once you have told someone a secret, you cannot untell it.
21:34:23  <domanic>either think carefully before you speak, or collect all the secure-scuttlebutt replicas and throw them into a black hole
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22:03:42  <domanic>domanic, the best you can really do is post another message asking everyone to disregard the "deleted" message.
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