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07:57:21  <jbenet>hey is anyone in here amazing with d3?
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08:18:21  <domanic_>ralphtheninja, joates is correct #stackvm is the squatconf channel
08:40:10  <joates>domanic_, mr tarr?
08:41:05  * joateswondering y u've spelled yr own name wrong :O
08:42:56  <domanic_>joates, this spelling has better lexiographic properties
08:43:53  <joates>i c
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11:08:05  <jbenet>gonna drop this here -- hyper modular programming system -- https://github.com/jbenet/random-ideas/issues/27
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13:58:06  <domanic_>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140909130810.htmd
13:58:12  <domanic_>WWWWWTTTTTTFFFFF?
13:58:30  <nathan7>Hey domanic_
13:58:50  <nathan7>that link's a 404, domanic_
13:59:06  <domanic_>oops
13:59:07  <domanic_>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140909130810.htm
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14:24:10  <domanic_>substack, http://boingboing.net/2014/09/19/discovering-cuban-sci-fi.html
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14:37:26  <domanic_>pfraze, yo
14:37:52  <pfraze>domanic_, yo yo
14:39:53  <domanic_>pfraze, today I want to get phoenix to use the msgpack stuff on ssb
14:40:24  <domanic_>pfraze, first thing; merge #25
14:41:00  <pfraze>domanic_, yeah sounds good. You were talking about taking apps out of ssb right?
14:41:37  <domanic_>I'm not 100% sure yet but I think so
14:42:05  <domanic_>maybe they should move into phoenix? indexing the links means we don't really need them in ssb now
14:42:20  <domanic_>removing them will make ssb much simpler
14:43:13  <pfraze>yeah, I'm wondering if we need them at all with the link indexing
14:43:27  <pfraze>and standard encoding
14:43:45  <domanic_>well there is still the UI stuff
14:43:49  <domanic_>and permissions
14:44:10  <pfraze>yeah, but still tied to individual message types?
14:44:15  <domanic_>but this is in the phoenix layer... having link indexing makes ssb into a cleaner database idea
14:44:51  <domanic_>we could probably remove the message type field too
14:45:00  <domanic_>and move it inside the message
14:45:12  <pfraze>that's true
14:45:42  <domanic_>that is a radical change - but this is the perfect time to make such changes
14:45:42  <pfraze>though if we keep it outside we can index with it as well
14:46:06  <domanic_>we can still index it if it's inside... infact, we can just index everythnig!
14:46:20  <domanic_>like use this maybe: https://github.com/dominictarr/level-search
14:46:38  <pfraze>youve gone mad with indexing!
14:47:28  <pfraze>that is a pretty neat thing. Did you ever calculate the space usage?
14:47:31  <domanic_>well it means everything is searchable
14:48:10  <domanic_>oh it might add 2x but diskspace is cheap
14:48:52  <domanic_>and searchability is so convenient
14:51:22  <pfraze>I'm going to try to get an exact number. I'm worried about sucking up >10gb on people's devices with an append-only dataset
14:53:32  <domanic_>if we have merkle tree logs we can manage this much better, because we can still validate it with data removed
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15:01:56  <pfraze>domanic_, ok yeah that looks like 2xish, maybe a little more
15:02:33  <domanic_>it depends on the size of the keys and value
15:03:08  <pfraze>it is a really cool feature. So we'd drop message types in ssb, add level-search to phoenix?
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15:03:31  <domanic_>hmm
15:04:35  <domanic_>yes that feels right
15:05:07  * mawepart
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15:06:18  <domanic_>pfraze, can you give me your introduction token?
15:07:47  <pfraze>domanic_, send me yours, I'll add you to the relay members
15:10:13  <domanic_>okay I clicked "sync" and it's sitting there
15:10:53  <domanic_>YUSS
15:11:09  <pfraze>cool, got your data
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15:11:57  <domanic_>okay my first pr to phoenix will be to add ctrl-enter to post...
15:12:31  <pfraze>+1
15:14:05  <domanic_>oh man substack just had the wackiest idea
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15:16:38  <pfraze>?
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15:20:00  <domanic_>pfraze, he is posting an issue about it
15:20:12  <pfraze>k
15:23:53  <domanic_>pfraze, hmm. I connected my new ssb to your old one and it worked? why didn't it error?
15:24:44  <substack>https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix/issues/27
15:25:41  <pfraze>domanic_, not sure
15:26:32  <domanic_>pfraze, what module does require('secure-scuttlebutt') ?
15:27:31  <pfraze>oh thats in phoenix-rpc
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15:29:42  <domanic_>oh I see, it's using ssb latest...
15:30:49  <domanic_>pfraze, this should break it, but it will probably just work if we all use it.
15:32:02  <pfraze>domanic_ yeah we should go ahead and make all the changes we're talking about now
15:33:12  <pfraze>if you go ahead and strip out msg type and apps, I'll update phoenix to work without that
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15:36:44  <domanic_>pfraze, it seems phoenix-rpc has deps that arn't needed?
15:36:52  <pfraze>domanic_, entirely possible
15:36:59  <domanic_>https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/blob/master/package.json#L9-L12
15:37:34  <pfraze>domanic_, yeah I'll do some pruning
15:38:20  <domanic_>also this is not necessary: https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/blob/master/index.js#L47
15:38:31  <domanic_>because mux-demux/msgpack already has that
15:39:01  <pfraze>domanic_, ok I'll look into that
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15:45:42  <domanic_>pfraze, they way it opens the browser automatically is quite annoying
15:45:47  <domanic_>how do I disable that?
15:46:15  <pfraze>-n
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16:00:43  <pfraze>domanic_, yeah looks like you were right about msgpack stream. Removed it and all tests pass :)
16:01:34  <domanic_>pfraze, https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix/pull/28
16:02:32  <pfraze>domanic_, done merged!
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16:03:59  <domanic_>pfraze, how come there is this file: https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/blob/master/lib/ssb.js
16:04:12  <domanic_>can't we just pass in an ssb instance?
16:05:57  <domanic_>who is "this" is that file?
16:06:18  <pfraze>https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/blob/master/lib/rpc-api.js#L61
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16:07:28  <pfraze>domanic_, that's the `this`.
16:07:42  <pfraze>domanic_, phoenix wraps the user's keys and protects the private key. It would be tricky to expose ssb transparently and protect the key
16:08:26  <pfraze>we could use a key-management api that's kind of like file descriptors
16:08:53  <pfraze>but right now we have a "one user per phoenix instance" concept, so I didnt go that far
16:10:19  <domanic_>this is kinda cheating: https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/blob/master/lib/rpc-api.js#L10-L27
16:10:34  <domanic_>because it looks like the files are small, but you are basically mixing them together
16:11:58  <pfraze>domanic_, well, theyre sub APIs. I just need to join them together on the rpc interface. The most cheatingest aspect is that they share a `this` and so can access each other's variables (rather than making method calls to each other)
16:12:32  <domanic_>this is dangerous
16:13:15  <domanic_>how do I pass in the ssb instance?
16:13:20  <domanic_>or the database?
16:14:02  <domanic_>the problem is that we can't test any of these files on their own
16:15:45  * shamajoined
16:16:14  <domanic_>pfraze, like, this file: https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/blob/master/lib/keys.js
16:16:33  <domanic_>would be better if it returned a self contained object that could be tested on it's own
16:17:03  <domanic_>or even published on it's own
16:17:27  <pfraze>domanic_, right, I don't disagree. Currently it spawns a full rpc interface and tests the components individually on it, but it can easily be improved
16:19:10  <domanic_>pfraze, best is probably if we can just make ssb easy to wrap with an rpc and use a generic rpc
16:19:35  <domanic_>I have been discussing with juliangruber about making multilevel into a generic rpc thing
16:20:12  * shamaquit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
16:24:17  <pfraze>domanic_, I agree, though I do think we'll need a key management api to do that, so it can't be a totally transparent wrapping. SSB also has some cases that dont fit well into the current rpc scheme, which I think multi-level would have trouble with too (createReplicationStream returns a stream and has a callback)
16:25:59  <domanic_>that one is okay because you don't do replication via rpc
16:26:08  <domanic_>that is purely server side
16:26:30  <pfraze>ok
16:26:42  <domanic_>in the new version with indexed links now it's more about the keys
16:27:29  <domanic_>now even replication is centered on a key: https://github.com/dominictarr/secure-scuttlebutt/blob/master/test/replicate-follow.js#L53-L58
16:29:24  <pfraze>does that replace the follow()/unfollow() methods?
16:32:20  <domanic_>and this is how follow works now: https://github.com/dominictarr/secure-scuttlebutt/blob/master/test/replicate-follow.js#L38
16:33:06  * fotoveritejoined
16:33:29  <pfraze>domanic_, are you going to replace ssb.follow() with that?
16:33:44  <domanic_>yes, except it will be on the feed object, i tihnk
16:34:50  <domanic_>now it traverses all your followers (via the indexed messages) to get the set of keys you follow, and then checks what is the latest message you have from them...
16:35:09  <domanic_>so follows are tided to the feeds not the database
16:35:57  <pfraze>yeah
16:36:10  <domanic_>hmm, except for the client messages. hmm
16:44:02  <ralphtheninja>I've been mailing with Amir Taaki and he wants to come to squatconf
16:47:19  <domanic_>ralphtheninja, oh wow awesome
16:47:34  * yoshuawuytsjoined
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16:51:11  * therealkoopajoined
16:54:34  <domanic_>pfraze, where does the client code start?
16:54:51  <pfraze>domanic_, in phoenix-rpc?
16:55:06  <domanic_>in phoenix. what is the browserify command?
16:55:19  * anandthakkerjoined
16:55:43  * yoshuawuytsquit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
16:55:57  <pfraze>domanic_, are you trying to run the websocket test? That's the only browserified code
16:56:27  <pfraze>all the other client code is so minimal, I havent started browserifying it yet
16:57:12  * yoshuawuyts_joined
16:59:05  <domanic_>right. so my problem currently is that I don't understand what first gets called - where the client is connected to the server and where calls are made
17:00:36  <pfraze>you mean the webserver to the rpc backend? That's in js/localhost/index
17:01:07  <pfraze>when the createServer method is called, it uses the js/backend function to open the rpc connection
17:01:19  <domanic_>ah but that looks like server side code
17:01:44  * yoshuawuyts_quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
17:02:21  <jjjohnny>NO WAY
17:02:25  <pfraze>it is. The browser client doesnt connect to the rpc server or do any significant dynamic work. It's all request/response flow right now
17:03:00  <jjjohnny>tbh the server/client duality has bugged me a long time in yalls APIs
17:03:39  <pfraze>fwiw I've just been prototyping quickly up until now. We should plan to reorganize once we're ready
17:03:49  * Maciek416joined
17:03:58  <domanic_>ohhhhh
17:03:59  <pfraze>for instance, phoenix is still organized as if it's a node-webkit project, and that's pretty old news now
17:04:21  <pfraze>yeah I wouldnt bless any of this
17:04:23  <domanic_>if we are gonna do it like that we don't even need rpc
17:04:50  <pfraze>well so it is if we want to run cli commands while the webserver is running
17:04:59  <domanic_>jjjohnny, oh rights
17:05:12  <domanic_>oops, that "oh right" was for pfraze
17:05:38  <domanic_>jjjohnny, the client server thing is only local, to get UI working.
17:07:58  <jjjohnny>i didnt mean you specifically now, i meant yall API leaders in general
17:08:56  * Maciek416quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
17:09:15  <jjjohnny>ooo auto remote daemon
17:12:49  <jjjohnny>y didnt u tell me this was a thing?
17:13:36  <jjjohnny>zoooo my godz
17:14:04  <jjjohnny>how did u know im phoenixing rn?
17:15:34  <jjjohnny>whats yr public keys?
17:16:28  * shamajoined
17:17:11  <jjjohnny>domanic_: whats yr key?
17:17:39  <domanic_>{"id":"6d664a78982b9bad92a0131ac4da8f61d6eb8a12c02425e76e9032db0ba38b37","relays":[["grimwire.com",64000]]}
17:18:03  <jjjohnny>do i have to sign up for you relay?
17:19:14  <jjjohnny>no command add
17:19:38  <pfraze>jjjohnny do you have the web interface open?
17:20:10  <jjjohnny>yeah, but i was trying the cli
17:20:13  <pfraze>when you do, hit Add feed... and copy that whole json into it
17:20:26  <pfraze>ok in that case, 1 sec
17:20:47  <jjjohnny>the whole json eh
17:21:21  * shamaquit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
17:21:33  <pfraze>lol yeah, just use the web interface atm. (Everythings gonna get kinda obliterated in a bit anyway :|)
17:22:02  <pfraze>you should be able to add domanic with that json and hit sync to see his messages
17:22:17  <pfraze>after that, get your introduction token and copy it in here and I'll add you to the relya
17:22:18  <pfraze>relay
17:22:33  <jjjohnny>hahah[5~[5~[5~[5~
17:24:51  * therealkoopaquit (Remote host closed the connection)
17:25:23  <jjjohnny>ok all good
17:25:29  <domanic_>pfraze, weird, I get this error: in phoenix/test/ssb
17:25:29  <jjjohnny>console.log('got')
17:25:29  <domanic_>{"id":"6d664a78982b9bad92a0131ac4da8f61d6eb8a12c02425e76e9032db0ba38b37","relays":[["grimwire.com",64000]]}
17:25:32  <domanic_>oops
17:25:34  <domanic_>ERROR: unknown callback id: 2 []
17:25:34  <domanic_>not ok 14 test exited without ending
17:25:34  <domanic_> ---
17:25:34  <domanic_> operator: fail
17:25:46  <domanic_>that is a rpc-stream error
17:26:22  <pfraze>domanic_, yeah, I'd get those every so often when an api error occurred. I never solved why it became an rpc-stream error
17:27:05  <domanic_>it might be something calling back twice
17:27:23  <pfraze>where did it just appear?
17:27:53  <domanic_>in the test output
17:28:38  <pfraze>of phoenix-rpc?
17:28:50  <pfraze>did you make changes prior?
17:29:01  <pfraze>just wondering if it's coming out of the blue or could be from work you rdoing
17:30:11  <domanic_>pfraze, oh, sorry - I symlinked in the latest ssb
17:30:32  <pfraze>ok cool
17:30:43  <jjjohnny>pfraze: how do i change my handle?
17:31:23  <jjjohnny>and what is your address?
17:31:26  <pfraze>jjjohnny, cli only right now, './phoenix setup'. First run creates keys and sets nickname, subsequent runs updates your nickname
17:31:40  <jjjohnny>sweet
17:31:42  <pfraze>I'm {"id":"7c1acaa9572b8755fae91c19aca1c8a912ca00a526284888431f758cf6eaa367","relays":[["grimwire.com",64000]]}
17:32:43  <jjjohnny>???
17:33:06  * therealkoopajoined
17:33:16  <jjjohnny>is that yr name: ???
17:33:32  <jjjohnny>cuz thats what showed up
17:33:42  <jjjohnny>oh sync
17:33:55  <jjjohnny>ima write a browser plugin to make it auto sync
17:34:48  <pfraze>haha
17:36:30  <jjjohnny>should I run setup to start a relay daemon only?
17:38:00  <jjjohnny>answer: not necessary
17:39:14  <pfraze>jjjohnny, if you give me your intro token I'll add you to the grimwire relay and you wont need your own
17:39:26  <pfraze>or feel free to setup your own relay for maximum p2p power
17:39:53  <pfraze>but you gotta have a relay to push your messages
17:40:10  * coderzachjoined
17:40:19  <jjjohnny>i just hosted one
17:40:25  <jjjohnny>and added my local to it
17:40:27  <jjjohnny>er whatever
17:40:48  * therealkoopaquit (Remote host closed the connection)
17:40:49  <jjjohnny>{"id":"25cdae2ac711ff8aeb79e732b99c844a8fc2f8e1c0e430a9a67a9a5d566a1d08","relays":[["74.207.246.247",64000],["grimwire.com",64000]]}
17:41:20  * therealkoopajoined
17:41:44  <jjjohnny>so you guys didnt get my posts yet
17:42:00  <jjjohnny>is it possible to know when somebody follows you?
17:42:22  <jjjohnny>domanic_: maybe a question for you
17:42:48  * shamajoined
17:43:48  * yoshuawuytsjoined
17:43:58  <jjjohnny>maybe that should be a ssb thing: you ask your followers who they sharing u with?
17:44:17  <pfraze>jjjohnny, hit sync for me real quick
17:45:14  <jjjohnny>done
17:45:27  * therealkoopaquit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
17:52:45  <domanic_>jjjohnny, yeah we are gonna have that
17:52:59  <domanic_>we are gonna cut down this 2 step thing on the relays too
17:56:20  <jjjohnny>natch
18:00:51  * coderzachquit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:03:52  * brianloveswordsjoined
18:05:10  <jjjohnny>you can find people by looking at the relays!
18:05:19  <jjjohnny>convenient
18:05:48  <pfraze>aye :) domanic_ dont know if you knew that yet
18:08:49  * ednapiranhaquit
18:08:49  <domanic_>pfraze, what ssb methods do you use to create the feed ui?
18:08:53  <domanic_>createLogStream?
18:09:09  <domanic_>oh or createFeedStream?
18:09:19  <pfraze>feedstream
18:09:39  <pfraze>domanic_, https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix-rpc/commit/69e5c5589c4150417d137a7b6043ad7bdc1b39da
18:10:40  <domanic_>I notice the _most_ of the ssb# methods are actually internal
18:11:36  <domanic_>we just need to put createFeedStream on the feed object, and we are pretty good then
18:12:17  <jjjohnny>dude open source everything
18:13:02  * yoshuawuyts_joined
18:16:58  <joates>domanic_, ralphtheninja: any module recommendation for client-side email address validation ??
18:17:58  * yoshuawuyts_quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
18:18:12  <domanic_>joates, a regular expression
18:18:54  <domanic_>pfraze, do we need to discuss this, or should we just go with it? https://github.com/dominictarr/secure-scuttlebutt/pull/28
18:19:17  <joates>domanic_: like this one --> https://github.com/chriso/validator.js/blob/master/validator.js#L38
18:19:35  <jjjohnny>joates: u just got regexrolled
18:19:48  <pfraze>domanic_, yeah lets do it
18:19:57  <jjjohnny>A REGULAR OLD EXPRESSION
18:19:57  <LOUDBOT>I HOPE THAT MAKES THE LDB
18:20:23  <domanic_>pfraze, so... question... what should the boundry of ssb be?
18:20:33  <domanic_>should the network replication be in ssb?
18:20:40  <jjjohnny>there you go domanic_ they hopes regular old expression get a levelDB module
18:20:58  <domanic_>jjjohnny, if you publish it it will
18:21:06  * ryan_stevensquit (Quit: ryan_stevens)
18:21:32  <jjjohnny>U BEEN DELIVERED
18:21:32  <LOUDBOT>GOD LOVES HETEROS BECAUSE PRONOUNS HAVE CLEAR ANTECEDENTS
18:22:23  <domanic_>pfraze, it would be nice to be able to create an ssb server and just push data to it... i feel like maybe it should be in there
18:22:31  <domanic_>should be self contained
18:22:44  <pfraze>domanic_, the bleed is between ssb and phoenix-rpc
18:23:01  <domanic_>so, should ssb have a client?
18:23:14  <pfraze>well I wonder if phoenix-rpc should become ssb-server
18:23:16  <domanic_>one thing: ssb should not need to be a socialnetwork
18:23:20  <pfraze>right
18:23:21  <domanic_>yeah
18:23:27  <domanic_>ssb should be a database
18:23:33  <domanic_>but it's a replicatable database
18:23:35  <pfraze>yeah, kinda like redis
18:23:54  <domanic_>it's a tool, but not an application
18:23:57  <pfraze>yeah
18:24:03  <domanic_>phoenix is the application that is built on it
18:24:03  <pfraze>it's a socially-networkable db
18:24:14  <domanic_>stress on _able_
18:24:31  <pfraze>so yeah, most dbs like that would maintain their own node table
18:24:35  <pfraze>eg riak
18:24:36  <domanic_>so, it needs a server + rpc + cli tool
18:25:09  <pfraze>yeah, I think so
18:25:43  <domanic_>okay so with the new follows model, you would just need to configure the pub key of the ssb, plus the follow relation (the link to traverse to find all the nodes you replicate with)
18:25:43  <pfraze>same responsibilities as phoenix-rpc, I think, including key management
18:26:04  <domanic_>and a convention/configuration about the host/port of other servers
18:26:46  <domanic_>feed is the client interface, and ssb is the internal interface
18:27:26  <pfraze>that seems right. Feed has access to the link indexes?
18:27:26  <jjjohnny>then pheonix itself will use ssb-server
18:27:26  <jjjohnny>then pheonix itself will use ssb-server
18:27:33  <pfraze>jjjohnny, yeah
18:27:51  <jjjohnny>cuz the client is the server
18:28:17  <domanic_>jjjohnny, pfraze no phoenix is the ui
18:28:42  * anandthakkerquit (Quit: anandthakker)
18:28:43  <domanic_>jjjohnny, ostensibly yes, but there are some finer details in practice
18:28:50  <domanic_>because of browser limitations etc
18:28:53  * therealkoopajoined
18:29:06  <jjjohnny>but the server should be a stream interface, not an http one, right?
18:29:27  <pfraze>client/server are muddy terms here
18:29:28  <jjjohnny>cuz we can easily gets streams on webRTC data someday
18:29:40  <jjjohnny>the clever
18:30:24  <jjjohnny>whats we're saying is, plan for this whole shebang to run in a the browser, right, where local node can become relays?
18:30:46  <jjjohnny>we are the wolrd
18:30:56  <jjjohnny>we are the chilren
18:31:14  <pfraze>the breakdown is 1. ssb-server, which hosts the ssb feed for local apps like a redis or postgres server would; 2. phoenix-web, which hosts a gui to the local ssb-server; 3. phoenix-relay, which hosts a replication api to its ssb-server
18:31:37  * chiltsquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
18:32:00  <pfraze>phoenix-web also has a websocket interface that it basically pipes to ssb-server, so yeah, it should be possible to build mostly-entirely in-browser apps
18:32:14  <pfraze>and yeah, we use rpc streams instead of http
18:33:12  <domanic_>jjjohnny, yes, but it's just easier to start with node
18:33:23  <jjjohnny>what is the diff(1, 3) pfraze
18:33:42  <pfraze>well, I guess we could look at unifying them
18:33:47  <domanic_>oh actually 1 and 3 are the same
18:33:48  <pfraze>domanic_, what are your thoughts on that?
18:33:57  <domanic_>exactly the same
18:34:01  <pfraze>it's just an interface thing really
18:34:04  <pfraze>yeah lets do that
18:34:17  <domanic_>except for one config option that tells a 1 it's gonna be a 3
18:34:21  <pfraze>yeah
18:34:31  <domanic_>it's just ssb-server running on a static ip
18:35:53  * cpupquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:36:24  <jjjohnny>and pheonix-web should be a browserifable module
18:37:13  <jjjohnny>boosh
18:37:23  <pfraze>haha yeah something like that
18:37:25  <jjjohnny>word is bouche
18:38:01  <jjjohnny>pfraze: seriously, put the api in there for a web client, and then let the apps on the network proliferate
18:38:20  <pfraze>jjjohnny yeah we're definitely going to do that
18:38:32  <pfraze>we have to sort out permissioning but that's the plan
18:38:50  <jjjohnny>what did u guys ever agree on for blocking somebody?
18:38:55  <jjjohnny>domanic_: ^
18:39:19  <jjjohnny>keep a list of blocks, or put on a new id and tell yr friends?
18:40:23  * therealkoopaquit (Remote host closed the connection)
18:40:23  <jjjohnny>pfraze: what is the entry to the browser build?
18:41:14  <domanic_>jjjohnny, yeah, you have to ask your friends not to give them any information
18:42:04  <pfraze>jjjohnny, it's not there yet. Most of phoenix-web is an http server, so that's why it doesnt quite make sense to just browserify it. If you look in phoenix:js/web/wstest/index.js, you'll see how a pure-browser client works
18:42:15  <jjjohnny>with friends like robots, who needs secrets?
18:42:37  <pfraze>jjjohnny, so true
18:44:17  * brianloveswordsquit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
18:44:31  <domanic_>pfraze, that is why we should make the ui all js, with an api client, and then rpc to the "server" then we can move the "server" into a shared webworker and it will be the same
18:45:15  <pfraze>domanic_ yeah I agree with that
18:46:33  <jjjohnny>lets agree to call it sirzerp
18:46:58  <jjjohnny>domanic_: by "ui" you mean "API" right?
18:49:15  <domanic_>jjjohnny, no I mean the clickable buttons and text areas
18:49:29  <domanic_>the raw api is in secure-scuttlebutt
18:49:36  <domanic_>that is what you hook your bot up to
18:49:44  * _contrahaxchanged nick to contrahax
18:50:57  * ednapiranhajoined
18:52:03  <feross>Anyone know any chill cafes in Vegas where I can do some hacking?
18:52:25  * Maciek416joined
18:52:35  <feross>Something with a view would be cool
18:53:42  <feross>Everything is designed so you can't even sit down without spending money
18:55:25  <feross>I couldn't even walk from the airport to the strip. It's only a mile but the roads don't have sidewalks and it's not safe
18:55:46  <pfraze>domanic_, https://github.com/pfraze/phoenix/issues/29
18:55:58  <feross>The whole city feels like a scam or a spam email
18:56:01  <jjjohnny>feross: the walk is doable
18:56:13  <domanic_>feross, I'd ask tmpvar_
18:56:27  <jjjohnny>downtown vegas is more chill than the strip
18:56:35  <jjjohnny>its like old towne vegas
18:56:42  <jjjohnny>but inland vegas is where the real people are
18:57:25  <feross>I'm headed to downtown for Viva Ska Vegas to see one of my childhood bands play!
18:57:34  <feross>Five Iron Frenzy
18:57:37  * Maciek416quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
18:57:48  <feross>*fav childhood bands
18:58:33  <feross>I heard there's a secret back entrance into the airport that has a sidewalk so I'll try that when I leave
19:00:25  * chiltsjoined
19:00:55  <feross>tmpvar_: know any chill cafes in Vegas? Between airport and Fremont St (where I'm headed now)
19:02:25  <tmpvar_>Sunrise cafe on sunrise road is pretty nice
19:04:02  <tmpvar_>@feross sorry, on sunset road lol
19:04:31  * coderzachjoined
19:05:29  <jjjohnny>sunrise on sunset
19:06:00  <jjjohnny>to get there, take four lefts at the light at sunset and sunrise
19:06:32  * fotoveritequit (Quit: fotoverite)
19:08:57  <tmpvar_>Lol
19:10:01  * brianloveswordsjoined
19:12:26  <feross>tmpvar_: oh, that's quite a ways from the strip on foot
19:20:25  <tmpvar_>feross: hrm, yeah. I'm not sure there's any chill places on the strip (I avoid the strip like the plague) - how long are you around?
19:20:48  <feross>yeah, my mistake for thinking that walking it to get to fremont st was a good idea
19:20:57  <feross>i'm hear until 6am tomorrow morning
19:21:02  <feross>*here
19:21:19  <feross>i'm going to http://vivaskavegas.com/ at 5pm-1am tonight
19:21:33  * joatesquit (Quit: Leaving)
19:23:08  * ednapiranhaquit
19:28:24  <tmpvar_>ah, I'd offer to hang with you until then, but I'm sitting on the beach today!
19:29:46  * coderzachquit (Remote host closed the connection)
19:30:10  * yoshuawuytsquit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.)
19:33:02  <domanic_>pfraze, okay I'm gonna make a ssb-server module - that puts the database in one place, and the networking in one place
19:33:59  <domanic_>oh, hmm maybe that isn't right... the replication protocol is already in the database
19:34:56  <pfraze>domanic_ just clone phoenix-rpc and rename it
19:35:23  <pfraze>then add in a tcp interface
19:35:58  <domanic_>and I'm gonna have to move some other stuff around
19:36:14  <pfraze>yeah. I spent the morning fixing the module separation so it's worth looking at again
19:37:06  <domanic_>hmm, I guess network is a simple enough boundry
19:37:24  <domanic_>but will there be replication tests in the server module also?
19:38:16  <pfraze>domanic_, there are currently
19:38:30  <domanic_>yes, and why test the same thing twice?
19:38:42  <domanic_>it would be better to have one set of tests
19:38:57  <domanic_>also, there are already replication tests that go over tcp
19:39:10  * phatedjoined
19:39:24  <pfraze>yeah, but phoenix-rpc introduced an rpc mechanism so I wanted to be careful about that
19:40:01  <pfraze>if just to be sure I wrapped it correctly
19:41:18  <domanic_>when in doubt, choose two modules or one?
19:41:34  <domanic_>or choose one module and refactor it out when you know?
19:43:46  * yoshuawuyts_joined
19:45:51  <pfraze>I guess I'm not totally clear on what youre planning to do. I'm just saying, use that work if you can
19:47:51  <domanic_>okay
19:48:02  <domanic_>okay I'm gonna merge this https://github.com/dominictarr/secure-scuttlebutt/pull/28
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19:49:44  <domanic_>pfraze, does anything depend on secure-scuttlebutt/bin?
19:50:19  <domanic_>I'm thinking no?
19:50:48  <jjjohnny>so ssb-relay/rpc-cli will be app / data / msg type agnostic?
19:52:56  <pfraze>domanic_, no
19:53:51  <domanic_>jjjohnny, nearly, it will only have to know about one or two things
19:56:22  <domanic_>pfraze, what about ssb/secret.js ? I'm gonna delete the stuff that isn't used
19:57:33  <pfraze>domanic_, that can go
19:58:17  <jjjohnny>idk if its relevant, but im thinking that a message should be a file mime/type, if not raw
19:59:42  <jjjohnny>if there is to be some base api for messages...
20:03:02  <pfraze>jjjohnny, we're looking right now at encoding all messages in msgpack, and then supporting attachments for files/blobs
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20:14:44  <jjjohnny>pfraze: what is the plan for hosting those blobs? built into relay?
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20:15:03  <pfraze>jjjohnny, havent decided on anything yet
20:15:11  <pfraze>we're talking about maybe bittorrent
20:16:26  <jjjohnny>i think they should be in the network, fetchable by relay
20:16:48  <jjjohnny>BT is cool but it is also blocked places
20:18:10  <jjjohnny>otherwise leave messages agnostic
20:18:16  <jjjohnny>in the relays
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20:19:38  <jjjohnny>storage will become large, i think, and it is one of the things that could force for incentive
20:19:46  <jjjohnny>be a force
20:20:13  <jjjohnny>and a relay can deny connections
20:20:33  <jjjohnny>so like, my open relays, whatever, use em till the pipes filled
20:20:52  <jjjohnny>test your apps there
20:21:25  <pfraze>yeah, I'm not sure about the blocking, but a bit-torrent approach would try to work directly with the network. A worst-case for bit-torrent would be the same as downloading from a server, right?
20:22:00  <jjjohnny>worse would be you cant, even if the server is pubicly accessible, because some firewall jockey block BT somehow
20:22:12  <pfraze>well, yeah that's true
20:23:06  <pfraze>we'll see. Could get pricey for the relays to make them host, but maybe not
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20:23:17  <jjjohnny>pfraze: exactly what im getting at
20:23:26  <jjjohnny>ppl gotta use some coin to play
20:23:32  <jjjohnny>incentive for relays
20:23:37  <jjjohnny>incentive for app makers
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20:24:19  <jjjohnny>expect relay pools
20:24:31  <jjjohnny>this is too much fun
20:25:40  <pfraze>ah yeah. Well, that's definitely possible, yeah. This is less fun, but I'd be inclined to have paid subscription membership at my relays for doing that
20:26:27  <jjjohnny>same thing i think
20:27:14  <pfraze>yeah
20:27:35  <jjjohnny>so but if yr running a service, you may want to do better than BT
20:28:02  <pfraze>yeah I agree - if the quality of BT is low, we wont use it
20:30:21  <jjjohnny>i mean, u could run your own private global BT swarm
20:30:37  <jjjohnny>or you could have the user upload straight from the browser to the public BT
20:31:42  <jjjohnny>the difference means storage agnosticism, but not transfer of storage agnosticism, cuz like you already have relays that get data from within the whole complex...
20:32:07  <jjjohnny>good job jjjohnny
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20:36:34  <jjjohnny>I MEAN GOD WHERE DOES THE META END AND THE DATA BEGIN???
20:36:34  <LOUDBOT>I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT WAS A NUMBER.
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20:58:37  <substack>https://github.com/cyberwizardinstitute/course-map/wiki
20:59:23  <domanic_>jjjohnny, pfraze simple solution is to encrypt
20:59:34  <domanic_>like, use bt protocol over webrtc
20:59:52  <domanic_>it's encrypted, so no one can detect BT unless they are very clever
21:01:07  <domanic_>jjjohnny, twitlast
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21:02:27  <jjjohnny>domanic_: https://twitter.com/johnnyscript/status/513426625648545792
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21:05:21  <jjjohnny>ok, so that means the base message is raw, and if you want files in your messages, you put em there, and if you run a relay you choose max file size
21:05:50  <jjjohnny>but if you really wanna do files, your message is mere metadata
21:06:11  <jjjohnny>like dont even bake in a text message twitter protocol
21:08:41  <nathan7>hey humans
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21:23:50  <domanic_>nathan7
21:24:23  <domanic_>jjjohnny, we decided not to make messages raw, because then we can index their data and references to other messages
21:24:41  <domanic_>(however, msgpack can encode binary, so you could put raw data inside it)
21:25:21  <domanic_>really, raw binary is best in attachments
21:26:05  <domanic_>ahdinosaur, yo
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21:47:12  <ralphtheninja>domanic_: what are you working on?
21:47:36  <domanic_>ralphtheninja, secure-scuttlebutt
21:47:46  <domanic_>pfraze, https://github.com/dominictarr/secure-scuttlebutt/pull/29
21:49:32  <pfraze>domanic_, looks good
21:49:59  <domanic_>okay merging
21:50:19  <pfraze>what's the msgpack vs msgpack-js rundown?
21:50:28  <pfraze>dont see anything obvious just looking at the packages
21:52:29  <domanic_>kessler, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75ARLL9YBsk
21:53:08  <domanic_>pfraze, just that it's a pure js implementation
21:53:55  <pfraze>ok
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22:04:03  <ralphtheninja>domanic_: check
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22:42:28  <gorhgorh>@domanic_ ping
22:43:08  <domanic_>gorhgorh, hey
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22:45:09  <gorhgorh>was wondering if should use ssb as a db for #squatconf mail gathering
22:46:18  <gorhgorh>and the first squat is now secured, unless they close before the event :)
22:46:45  <nathan7>I should talk to some anarchist/squat folk over in Amsterdam
22:46:56  <nathan7>I think I might be able to find a couple of interesting people
22:47:19  <gorhgorh>and a place for the second one
22:47:37  <gorhgorh>i would love to have one i amsterdam as well
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22:53:20  <domanic_>gorhgorh, it's not really ready enough yet
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22:54:50  <gorhgorh>ok, i just was wondering because atm what joates and i are doing may not be totally secure :) I'll ask you to have a look at it before we go live
22:56:50  <domanic_>gorhgorh, you are collecting email addresses right?
22:57:00  <gorhgorh>yep
22:57:17  <domanic_>well EMAIL is not totally secure, so it wouldn't matter
22:57:34  <gorhgorh>hé hé good point
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