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00:00:06  <domanic_>if there was I would certainly consider it
00:00:10  <nathan7>domanic_: so, in my eyes, we should pick the fanciest thing that is fastest natively
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00:00:14  <nathan7>domanic_: ie BLAKE2bp
00:00:21  <nathan7>domanic_: and write the fastest JS implementation we can
00:00:44  <nathan7>domanic_: and as the web moves forward, performance will get closer to native
00:00:53  <domanic_>well, what I have is currently the best possible choice
00:01:15  <nathan7>domanic_: like, BLAKE2bp is probably the one that is slowest in JS, I don't know
00:01:30  <nathan7>domanic_: Parallel JS will speed it up significantly, as will 64-bit math in JS
00:01:47  <domanic_>but also, the hash perf is probably not gonna be the bottleneck, atleast once it's out of js
00:01:52  <nathan7>domanic_: and Web Crypto or other native extensions will bring it to full speed
00:02:06  <domanic_>will web crypto support blake2?
00:02:20  <nathan7>no, but I think Zooko and friends will push for that
00:02:40  <nathan7>like, imo, pick the one that will be fastest *eventually*
00:02:44  <domanic_>nathan7, how is that all progressing?
00:03:02  <nathan7>so that when the network becomes larger we can keep up
00:03:18  <domanic_>nathan7, that is fine, as long as it doesn't impede adoption in the beginning
00:03:37  <domanic_>because if people don't use it it's useless
00:03:39  <nathan7>yep
00:04:04  <domanic_>also, remember all the other stuff that might be slow
00:04:05  <nathan7>so, the phone in my pocket probably has the NEON ARM ISA extensions
00:04:22  <nathan7>so BLAKE2b is already fast there
00:04:30  <nathan7>it won't be too long till I have SIMD in my pocket
00:04:57  * tilgoviquit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
00:05:08  <nathan7>so eventually BLAKE2bp will be fastest on even low-end devices that fit in your pocket
00:05:10  <domanic_>the asymmetric crytpo is currently much slower
00:05:17  <nathan7>mhm
00:05:27  <domanic_>I want to switch to idunity's lib
00:05:34  <domanic_>which is twice as fast
00:05:36  <nathan7>that's why I'm okay with slowing down hashing a bit to make it future-proof
00:06:00  <domanic_>hash security is most important
00:06:18  <nathan7>they're all equally secure, they just produce different outputs
00:06:22  <domanic_>but ecc is more in danger of being a usability problem right now
00:06:49  <domanic_>(the slowness of the current implementation)
00:07:20  <nathan7>of course we could just include which hash we're using in the genesis block
00:07:34  <nathan7>as to future-proof it
00:07:57  <nathan7>also, weren't you using some shit curve?
00:09:26  <nathan7>ah, yeah, that's pretty slow
00:09:46  <nathan7>web workers for verification would probably improve things
00:09:55  <nathan7>(parallelising)
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00:19:45  <ahdinosaur>i'd love it if low-cost, disruptive themed tech events like SquatConf pop up.
00:21:08  <ahdinosaur>needs open and replicable operations guides
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00:30:25  <ahdinosaur>it'd also be interesting if we could incorporate virtual attendees with SquatConf's. as someone who doesn't go to confs due to cost, SquatConf still has a problem with physical travel cost, but virtual travel is cheap.
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00:50:17  <joates>"virtual attendees with SquatConf's" i like that idea ahdinosaur
00:51:32  <joates>ahdinosaur, although that also subjects organizers to additional costs (setup video streams etc)
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00:54:26  <ahdinosaur>joates: it's not required, but would be a nice contribution
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01:10:59  <nathan7>ahdinosaur: as announced, the wifi will be dodgy (;
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02:03:30  <mikolalysenko_>when is squatconf?
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02:07:48  <nathan7>mikolalysenko_: November 15th
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09:32:57  <thealphanerd>does anyone have a best practice for session storage that works on server + client?
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09:42:22  <substack>thealphanerd: depends on how the backend is wired up
09:44:11  <thealphanerd>there are a couple different auth strategies… writing an sdk for the account services, was considering how to make it work on both server + client… but not sure how that works with cookeis
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10:11:10  <domanic_>nathan7, do you know how the chi^2 distribution works?
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12:16:30  <jjjohnny>hey guise i created a stackvm ello acct password stackvm1000
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12:17:12  <jjjohnny>im glad they chose to focus on some idea of user interface design primarily instead of user experience
12:18:18  <jjjohnny>the experience with you, sir or madam startup, is fugly
12:19:14  <jjjohnny>srsly their feature list includes drag and drop
12:19:32  <thealphanerd>oh hai jjjohnny
12:19:33  <jjjohnny>and that is in the works
12:19:37  <thealphanerd>did I tell you that I recently got a 303 clone?
12:19:41  <jjjohnny>yeah i saw
12:19:44  <thealphanerd>I’m hoping to have it built in time
12:19:58  <thealphanerd>could be fun to throw threw those delays
12:20:09  <thealphanerd>do you want to maybe jam after or around oakland.js next week
12:20:11  <thealphanerd>to prep?
12:20:20  <jjjohnny>yeah
12:20:25  <thealphanerd>woot
12:20:40  <thealphanerd>ok
12:20:40  <jjjohnny>i have a gig next wednesday after oak.js
12:20:42  <thealphanerd>if I don’t sleep
12:20:48  <thealphanerd>tomorrow is going to blow
12:20:54  <thealphanerd>ping me with deets about the gig
12:20:57  <thealphanerd>could be fun to check out
12:21:00  <jjjohnny>ok
12:21:03  <jjjohnny>i can jam afterwards
12:21:09  <jjjohnny>cuz its early
12:21:26  <thealphanerd>everything is early when you goto bed at 5:30 am
12:21:26  <thealphanerd>:D
12:22:19  <jjjohnny>ha
12:23:42  <jjjohnny>oh good they did the stupid brick wall of posts, great design "artists"
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12:31:29  <jjjohnny>ellos founder's post makes me want to punchpuke
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12:33:11  <jjjohnny>omg our friends overloaded out digital ocean slice and we knew we had to hype and go public with this
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13:26:31  <jez0990>nathan7: heyhey
13:27:21  <jez0990>nathan7: domanic_the safest thing for hash security (as far as I understand) is to use scrypt-n and make provisions for automatically increasing the value of n to compensate for the growth of gpus and asics
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13:33:20  <domanic_>jez0990, that is a different problem, i think
13:33:34  <domanic_>like, if you want to hash a password
13:33:41  <domanic_>the password is probably guessable
13:33:55  <domanic_>so you want to make it too hard to check all the guesses
13:34:09  <domanic_>thus, you want an expensive hash
13:36:27  <domanic_>if you use hashes as links, it doesn't matter if someone can guess the destination
13:37:26  <domanic_>and if it does hold a secret (like in wintinitz chains), it just has to have enough entropy to make that unfeasible, i.e. as much entropy as a hash
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13:38:11  <domanic_>if people used high entropy passwords, then we would not need scrypt.
13:40:31  <jez0990>so links for SB aren't affected by second preimage attacks?
13:41:18  <jez0990>*SSB
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13:55:39  <jez0990>I feel like all the proof-of-work blockchains have changed the definition of "unfeasible"
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13:57:39  <domanic_>jez0990, you mean finding a collision with a specific target?
13:58:14  <domanic_>yeah it is vulnerable to that, but the chance of that is still very low
14:01:09  <jez0990>domanic_: yeah exactly
14:01:11  <domanic_>All currently known practical or almost-practical attacks on MD5 and SHA-1 are collision attacks.[citation needed] In general, a collision attack is easier to mount than a preimage attack, as it is not restricted by any set value (any two values can be used to collide).
14:01:15  <domanic_>--wikipedia
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14:06:33  <jez0990>domanic_: for a prototype network it's clearly not going to be a concern, I just like to worry about a future where an adversary (with deep pockets) can easily rent all of Earth's spare gpu capacity for an hour
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14:45:13  <juliangruber>thlorenz hey, you there?
14:47:21  <thlorenz>juliangruber: Ja
14:47:52  <juliangruber>can you tell me how i would debug a problem with a binding where this is printed to the console:?
14:47:53  <juliangruber>< (10285,0x7fff71676310) malloc: *** error for object 0x1034945a9: pointer being freed was not allocated
14:47:53  <juliangruber>< *** set a breakpoint in malloc_error_break to debug
14:48:17  <juliangruber>i'm trying gdb with a node debug build next
14:48:37  <thlorenz>on a Mac you could use instruments, on Linux I'd use valgrind
14:49:12  <juliangruber>thlorenz: cool, i'll give that a spin :)
14:49:25  <thlorenz>you could use valgrind even with docker if on a Mac
14:49:51  <thlorenz>https://github.com/thlorenz/ee.c/blob/master/container.mk
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14:50:14  <thlorenz>https://github.com/thlorenz/ee.c/blob/master/Makefile#L44-L45
14:51:26  <thlorenz>juliangruber: also scan-build on a Mac can help you find the problem: i.e. `scan-build make test -j4`
14:51:39  <juliangruber>thlorenz which profile should i use?
14:51:41  <juliangruber>for instruments
14:51:51  <thlorenz>or `scan-build -o /tmp/htmlout make -j4` to get an html report
14:51:57  <juliangruber>thlorenz compilation works
14:52:10  <juliangruber>this only happens in a server
14:52:17  <thlorenz>use Leaks on instruments
14:52:28  <thlorenz>part of the Memory group
14:53:01  <thlorenz>so scan-build statically analyses your code and could find the problem that way
14:53:30  <thlorenz>gives you useful hints to what could be wrong with your code: http://clang-analyzer.llvm.org/scan-build.html
14:54:20  <thlorenz>also loading your project into Xcode and doing Product/Analyze could help you (again static analysis)
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14:54:50  <juliangruber>aaah nice
14:54:53  <juliangruber>i'll try that
14:55:11  <thlorenz>with valgrind you'll actually have to run the faulty code i.e. in test (but it's the most powerful IMO)
14:55:14  <juliangruber>so i just ran instruments with the process and made it crash, it shows me one leak that happened way before it crashed
14:55:50  <thlorenz>ah, not sure if that is of help, the other option is to analyze the crash dump to see where it crashes
14:56:06  <juliangruber>thlorenz https://i.cloudup.com/OPmKjOMPEi.png
14:56:42  <thlorenz>also use lldb for that (I like that better than gdb) http://lldb.llvm.org/symbolication.html
14:57:03  <thlorenz>ah nm your problem isn't a leak anyways - sorry
14:57:23  <thlorenz>you are freeing something on a pointer that hasn't been allocated
14:59:37  <thlorenz>if you can't repro this locally your best bet may be to dig into the crash dump
15:00:33  <thlorenz>this is a clue also juliangruber (if you could repro locally)
15:01:14  <thlorenz>you'd just `lldb node yourthing` and then `b malloc_error_break` followed by `r` and wait for the breakpoint to hit
15:03:08  <juliangruber>thlorenz ok i'm in there
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15:15:20  <pfraze>domanic_, do we need to setup a contributer agreement?
15:16:05  <domanic_>pfraze, we should discuss it yeah
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15:23:05  <pfraze>domanic_, www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt
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15:23:58  <domanic_>pfraze, but what do we want to achieve with a CLA?
15:24:03  <domanic_>or prevent?
15:24:56  <pfraze>somebody trying to either control the content of the project or to sue for compensation
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15:26:40  <pfraze>jquery uses an electronic signature, I wonder if we can do the same - scanning and emailing sucks
15:26:40  <pfraze>http://contribute.jquery.org/CLA/
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15:51:22  <pfraze>domanic_ this isnt great - http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/225134/can-the-github-pull-request-process-constitute-an-electronic-signature-of-a-cla
15:57:44  <domanic_>pfraze, I think we should have this discussion somewhere a little more permanent like an github issue
15:58:02  <pfraze>ok
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17:28:24  <nathan7>domanic_: what is this chi^2 thing?
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17:29:23  <nathan7>domanic_: …okay, some kind of statistical distribution
17:29:28  <nathan7>domanic_: what does this have to do with our stuff
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17:30:52  <domanic_>nathan7, oh I figured it out now, I just asked you because you are smart about this sort of thing
17:31:38  <nathan7>domanic_: lol since when
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18:58:16  <ednapiranha>domanic_: i ruined ello
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19:29:30  <domanic_>ednapiranha, jden posts the same gif 200 times
19:30:36  <ednapiranha>domanic_: i think i did that to him
19:30:39  <ednapiranha>in his comments
19:30:44  <ednapiranha>domanic_: then i realized even though he 'noised' me
19:30:47  <ednapiranha>i could ping them all
19:30:50  <ednapiranha>and spam again
19:30:52  <ednapiranha>it's just great
19:30:54  <ednapiranha>wonderful really.
19:31:19  <ednapiranha>testing the limits of preconceived human attempts at being a network around gifs
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20:25:07  <ednapiranha>domanic_: http://v2.meatspac.es/
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20:32:58  <domanic_>ednapiranha, my camera is broke again
20:33:01  <domanic_>even in ff
20:33:20  <ednapiranha>noooo
20:36:49  <substack>ednapiranha: what are you using for the glitches? they look good
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20:41:05  <ednapiranha>substack: webm + ffmpeg
20:41:11  <ednapiranha>substack: array of pngs from canvas to the server
20:41:17  <ednapiranha>then processed w/ brycebaril's glitch libs
20:41:21  <ednapiranha>and passed back as ffmpeg base64
20:41:23  <substack>cooolio
20:41:58  <ednapiranha>substack: nice filesize!
20:42:03  <ednapiranha>29 kb on avg
20:42:04  <ednapiranha>give or take
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21:33:57  <jjjohnny>ednapiranha: whats the png to video exactly, ive been faling at this a while
21:35:19  <ednapiranha>jjjohnny: there's a client-side module to take snapshots that write to canvas and convert to base64 data uris
21:35:27  <ednapiranha>but it writes it to memory as an array in sequential order
21:35:35  <ednapiranha>for n frames and n milliseconds
21:35:47  <ednapiranha>that gets passed in as a socket request to the server upon form submission
21:36:03  <ednapiranha>which writes each into a buffer -> file .. also in sequential order
21:36:04  <jjjohnny>how to u turn the pngs into video?
21:36:23  <ednapiranha>then ffmpeg can read the glob of the files in order to convert to webm
21:36:42  <ednapiranha>then we take that and convert it into a base64 data uri and pass it back to the client
21:36:56  <ednapiranha>and there is a cleanup after it is processed to delete the files
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22:27:58  <domanic_>Raynos, you have a math degree!?
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22:31:05  <domanic_>substack, jbenet pfraze nathan7 feross just decided we should refer to the internet of ipfs, ssb, bittorrent, tor, etc etc as CYPHERSPACE
22:31:15  <jbenet>hahahahhaha
22:31:16  <jbenet><3
22:31:18  <jbenet>i love that.
22:31:20  <nathan7>domanic_: +9001
22:31:35  <pfraze>over 9000!?
22:31:45  <nathan7>indeed
22:31:45  <jbenet>yes. over. twice. 18002.
22:31:50  <nathan7>:O
22:31:59  <pfraze>he's gone plaid
22:33:17  <domanic_>when cyberspace is overrun by squares, where do you go next? .... CYPHERSPACE
22:33:21  <domanic_>DUN DUN DUN
22:33:21  <LOUDBOT>THEY CAME FOR THE BEARS AND I SAID NOTHING, BECAUSE FUCK BEARS
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22:36:18  <nathan7>systems programmers solve the bear menace, loudbot
22:36:46  <nathan7>(for those who don't understand that reference, https://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thenightwatch.pdf)
22:37:00  <nathan7>domanic_: I'm working on full BLAKE2 bindings for Rust
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22:38:37  <pfraze>nathan7, how are you liking rust? I have a rust crush
22:39:04  <nathan7>pfraze: I spent twelve hours debugging, culminating in https://gist.github.com/nathan7/81991a01d79599355fc9
22:39:11  <domanic_>brb
22:39:43  <pfraze>so nothing but bliss then
22:40:18  <nathan7>I've discovered a number of exciting new ways to overwrite one's stack and destroy all useful debugging information by the time it crashes.
22:41:07  <pfraze>I thought rust was all about memory safety?
22:41:15  <nathan7>Yes.
22:41:23  <nathan7>I'm interfacing to aggressively optimised C.
22:41:37  <pfraze>oh gotcha
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22:41:55  <nathan7>There's a couple of memory alignment guarantees that the produced object code assumes, which I cannot currently make in Rust.
22:42:09  <pfraze>ok well congrats on some flagrant coder badassery on that, but how do you like rust tho?
22:42:43  <pfraze>memory ownership and the types system seem really cool
22:42:47  <nathan7>Rust is an amazing piece of awesome, and it's the reason I'm relatively okay with spending twelve hours debugging these interactions.
22:43:05  <nathan7>I'll *gladly* spend twelve hours in agony to avoid having to write C.
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22:43:32  <nathan7>Rust is magic Esperanto compared to the primitive language that is C.
22:43:43  <nathan7>I'm writing a kernel in Rust and it's been pretty fun.
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22:43:57  <pfraze>oh yeah, I've seen the posts about doing that, does seem like fun
22:44:36  <pfraze>whats the pattern called, the exokernal?
22:44:43  <pfraze>a minimal kernel you run in a vm
22:44:51  <nathan7>not necessarily in a VM
22:45:06  <nathan7>an exokernel provides the basics of interacting with hardware and partitioning resources
22:45:28  <nathan7>my aim is to have a layer that is basically an exokernel, to allow me to write a microkernel in pure Rust
22:46:06  <pfraze>the use I've heard for an exokernel is that it's basically built for an application; I guess you're thinking of going bigger
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22:46:45  <pfraze>correct me if I'm wrong on that
22:46:49  <nathan7>I have a bunch of plans for the future of operating systems, and they span about ten years.
22:47:03  <pfraze>uhh well if theyre not all runtimejs then I dunno
22:47:31  <pfraze>(jk)
22:47:34  <nathan7>JITs are amazing, but they do not obviate the need for actual bare-metal systems.
22:48:11  <pfraze>no ok so actually what are you thinking of doing?
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22:49:25  <nathan7>Ruthless efficiency with clean interfaces, underpinned by smart compilers providing strong correctness guarantees.
22:49:46  <nathan7>You can write your actual OS on top of that, and you can run RuntimeJS under it just fine
22:49:56  <pfraze>yeah
22:50:02  <nathan7>Very little should have to live in kernelspace, where absolute correctness is required.
22:50:18  <nathan7>The kernel provides IPC, task scheduling and memory page allocation.
22:51:13  <nathan7>Nearly all I/O will be zero-copy and DMA-driven.
22:51:33  <nathan7>We have amazing computers today, yet we're still programming it like it's 1970.
22:51:41  <nathan7>s/it/them/
22:52:49  <nathan7>And because of that, providing new primitives is hard.
22:53:24  <nathan7>I should be able mix and match components at will, have anarchy in my operating system.
22:54:36  <nathan7>If you can provide new primitives easily, built directly and efficiently on top of others, the dream of npm will reach all of computing.
22:56:08  <pfraze>sounds like a good project. Brutal hard but hey. Rust also sounds like a great language for that
22:56:19  <nathan7>Yep.
22:56:42  <pfraze>just...so excited for that types system
22:57:11  <nathan7>A few years back I wrote a C++ microkernel, and I gave up on making that a pleasant system to use because guaranteeing safety was so bloody hard.
22:58:10  <nathan7>I managed to get everything right because I had a lot of time and paper during universally uninteresting high school classes.
22:58:38  <pfraze>heh yeah
22:58:53  <nathan7>And I don't want the next generation of operating systems to be designed by people who spend their time on such arduous tasks.
22:59:15  <nathan7>I want them to be designed by people like you and me and Dominic.
23:00:36  <nathan7>Adding something like Secure Scuttlebutt to the operating system layer, as the lowest level at which an application programmer works, should be an easy task.
23:00:54  <nathan7>It isn't, and it'll take a bunch of work to make it so, but it should be.
23:01:29  <pfraze>yeah, I think SSB would be a really interesting core primitive
23:01:50  <nathan7>Yep. And I have a number of others lined up.
23:02:49  <nathan7>We've been held back too long by the 1970s. The future is coming, and I don't care about dragging the 1970s along.
23:03:38  <pfraze>preach it !
23:04:10  <nathan7>Hopefully I'll be able to put a talk together about this in a year or so, when I can be less handwavy about the implementation.
23:06:53  <nathan7>Something like RuntimeJS-on-Sulphur would take a few hours to put together, not months.
23:09:23  <pfraze>oh I kinda see what youre saying there
23:09:25  <pfraze>that's a neat idea
23:09:31  <pfraze>is sulphur your project?
23:10:20  <nathan7>Yep.
23:10:35  <nathan7>Part of the larger, 10-year plan of Project Lux.
23:11:04  <pfraze>cool
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23:24:33  <substack>kessler__: this is what I usually do with opts.fs style https://github.com/substack/node-mkdirp#mkdirpdir-opts-cb
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