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00:33:08  <brycebaril>nathan7: you should come talk about your plans for the future of operating systems at the Nothing Is Sacred portion of JSFest!
00:33:23  <brycebaril>that's *exactly* the type of stuff I want people to talk about
00:33:55  <brycebaril>https://github.com/mikeal/jsfest-oakland-cfp ;)
00:34:12  <nathan7>brycebaril: JSFest is in like, the United Bunch of Territory I Don't Want To Be On though
00:34:29  <brycebaril>Yeah, that's a downside.
00:34:44  <nathan7>it's also mad expensive to get over there
00:34:52  <brycebaril>http://nothingissacred.org -- maybe we could do another session nearer to where you're at :)
00:35:24  <nathan7>oh right, I can get my flight paid for
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00:35:29  <brycebaril>but the whole idea that the assumptions made in the 70s need to be tested and probably shredded is exactly why I started the whole idea
00:35:57  <brycebaril>inspired by runtimejs's and nodeos work and leveldb for the database side of things
00:36:02  <nathan7>I have absolutely no public speaking experience and stuff though
00:36:12  <brycebaril>*shrug*
00:36:12  <nathan7>like, my SquatConf talk will be my first talk ever
00:37:25  <brycebaril>well the idea for submitting is planted, and there's always future nothing is sacred stuff that will hopefully happen too
00:38:09  <nathan7>I do want to talk about this stuff, but I'm not sure it's worth anyone's time and money right now as a talk
00:40:04  <brycebaril>*I* want to hear it :)
00:40:41  <nathan7>sure, but I'm less certain about spending a thousand bucks on getting to the US for that
00:41:22  <nathan7>and it feels kind of disingenuous to take other people's thousand bucks for something I'm not too sure about
00:42:32  <nathan7>nothing of this has anything to do with JavaScript either, so that further weakens presenting it at JSFest to me
00:43:47  <nathan7>someone else with actual code instead of concepts and crazy plans could give an hour-long talk about stuff people /are/ interested in in that spot
00:46:14  <nathan7>I was considering coming to JSFest but paying money to go somewhere is rather different from taking resources for something I'm not sure is valuable enough
00:46:56  * uncomprehensiblychanged nick to ELLIOTTCABLE
00:47:11  <nathan7>so unless people are mad enthusiastic about it I don't feel justified in doing that
00:48:01  <brycebaril>nathan7: just because nothing is sacred is at jstfest doesn't mean I'm making it js only, just taking advantage of the organization help for the first go-round
00:48:30  <brycebaril>if you submit a talk about it the worst thing that happens is it doesn't get accepted this time, and we can talk about when to have you give it
00:50:54  <nathan7>I'm not worried about it not getting accepted, brycebaril
00:51:04  <nathan7>I'm worried about it being accepted and what comes with that
00:51:22  <nathan7>If it's not accepted, democracy has decided, and I'm cool with that.
00:52:08  <nathan7>If it's accepted, there's a certain bunch of things being given to me, and there's a certain set of things expected from me, and everyone apparently believes I can deliver on those things.
00:53:06  <nathan7>and I'm just some random kid who pokes at computers, not even a novice public speaker
00:56:21  <nathan7>just because I've given up my hopes of being a normal person for the exciting opportunity to think about hex numbers and their relationship to operating systems, hardware, and ancient blood rituals Bjarne Stroustrup performed at Stonehenge
00:56:44  <nathan7>doesn't mean I get a free pass to waste people's time and money even if they think it's a good idea somehow
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01:50:10  <therealkoopa>Does seaport store all endpoints somewhere on disk in case it's restarted? Something is totally messed up on my server, and seaport is returning 20+ stale endpoints and I can't fiugre out where they are stored
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02:18:49  <cspr>hi flx
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02:41:34  <jjjohnny>lol nathan7
02:41:48  <nathan7>jjjohnny: ?
02:41:56  <jjjohnny>yr rant above
02:42:24  <nathan7>I wish I could find it as funny as you do
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02:42:56  <nathan7>I really do want to talk about this stuff but I'm very uncomfortable with taking other people's resources and trust for that.
02:44:08  <jjjohnny>everyone is phoning it in
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02:46:53  <nathan7>I'm not sure what you mean by that
02:47:47  <jjjohnny>i odnt conf much, but it seems the best are the ones that seek radical ideas and give them air
02:48:20  <nathan7>sure
02:48:35  <nathan7>that's why we're running SquatConf and stuff
02:49:08  <nathan7>but that's a pretty different setup from JSFest
02:49:25  <jjjohnny>oh so its a festival judgement
02:49:29  <nathan7>no
02:49:58  <nathan7>if I waste your time at SquatConf, I don't give a shit, I paid for all my own shit, and we're not charging you a cent
02:50:21  <nathan7>have a beer on my dime, whatever
02:50:40  <jjjohnny>whya are you charging future people with judging you?
02:51:16  <nathan7>if you're paying $200 for a ticket you probably have some expectations
02:51:39  <jjjohnny>yeah a day out of mid size startup office
02:51:46  <jjjohnny>to hear some real shit
02:52:16  <nathan7>I paid for my own ticket to nodeconfeu, and I made my time valuable to me, had a good time
02:52:53  <jjjohnny>i wouldnt cross the seas for a conf either tbh
02:52:55  <nathan7>but I wasn't a ticket's worth of contribution to other people's stuff
02:53:10  <nathan7>and that's fine with me because I paid for me, not for them
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02:54:22  <nathan7>I'll probably *go* to JSFest either way
02:55:14  <jjjohnny>ok then come speak at hackistan, you dont get anything for it, and if you suck we throw a chicken at you
02:55:25  <nathan7>totally cool with me
02:55:47  <nathan7>I can probably provide a chicken's worth of value in talks to you
02:56:06  <jjjohnny>if you desire to kill and render the chicken, you may
02:56:42  <nathan7>this is why I carry a knife, always prepared for free chicken
02:57:42  <jjjohnny>you hear that peeps, nathan7 is speaking at hackistan during JSFest, off the fruitvale bart in oakland
02:58:09  <jjjohnny>where there will also be music and other fine spirits
02:59:19  <jjjohnny>featuring the hackistani house band BONERS TO MURGATROYD
03:00:04  <jjjohnny>which uses for effects dot johnny synths
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03:00:49  <jjjohnny>qv. http://i.imgur.com/BD59liF.png
03:06:47  <therealkoopa>substack: Seaport appears to be storing old endpoints, even after restarting the process and the server. It's showing endpoints for an IP that doesn't exist anymore. How can I fix this?
03:07:58  <jjjohnny>brycebaril: i would like to propose a talk for Nothing is Sacred, about pro anti-intellectualism
03:09:11  <cspr>how many conferences do y'all go to?
03:09:34  <cspr>i'm in pseudoacademic circles and i thought i went to alot
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03:16:16  <cspr>sry nm dumb question
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08:35:46  <nathan7>jez0990: I'm playing with schemes for more compact Winternitz keys now
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08:58:35  <jez0990>nathan7: that would be pretty impressive, to break new ground on the OTS itself - what sort of thing are you imagining?
08:59:05  <nathan7>jez0990: well, if you have an HMAC
08:59:44  <nathan7>jez0990: you have your leftmost Merkle tree leaf node
09:00:11  <nathan7>jez0990: you generate the node to the right from it using the HMAC
09:00:18  <nathan7>jez0990: the HMAC key is part of your secret key
09:00:45  <nathan7>jez0990: essentially you have a deterministic PRNG for generating the bottom level of your key
09:01:27  <nathan7>jez0990: which happens to be a one-way function, so if you store only the next unused key, you cannot accidentally reuse the key
09:02:16  <nathan7>er, derp, no, fuck, I fucked up
09:02:22  <nathan7>the forward secrecy is fucked
09:02:56  <nathan7>if someone compromises the HMAC key and two signatures then forward security is lost
09:03:15  <nathan7>need to kludge another layer of separation in
09:03:40  <nathan7>but that's not too tricky
09:05:05  <nathan7>jez0990: so you only need to keep the parts of the Merkle tree that you cannot generate anymore but still need, and your current position
09:05:48  <jez0990>nathan7: have you seen XMSS+? that seems like the state of the art in Merkle hash schemes but it's complex to implement - sounds a lot like what you're describing
09:06:46  <jez0990>http://computer9.net/x/xmss-%7B-a-practical-forward-secure-signature-scheme-based-on-w22676.html
09:06:54  <nathan7>jez0990: so if you're just over halfway through your keys, you have to hold the left child of the root, your current secret key, and the HMAC key
09:07:57  <jez0990>makes sense, it's called a "stateful" scheme
09:08:06  <nathan7>yes
09:08:16  <jez0990>nathan7: have you looked at the literature much?
09:08:21  <nathan7>not too much
09:08:26  <nathan7>if you generate truly random leaf nodes, you need to keep them all around
09:08:37  <nathan7>and destroy them when you've used them
09:09:20  <nathan7>with this, if you have one storage location, and you atomically overwrite the key with the next before using it, you're done
09:09:42  <nathan7>(pruning the Merkle proofs can be lazy)
09:11:45  <nathan7>jez0990: my browser caught fire trying to open that page
09:12:28  <nathan7>also, http://huelsing.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/mssgesamt.pdf is the actual PDF
09:12:32  <jez0990>http://huelsing.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/mssgesamt.pdf
09:12:54  <jez0990>haha, yeah sorry about that, I'm on a phone :D
09:13:31  <nathan7>I've been working on BLAKE2 bindings to Rust
09:14:56  <nathan7>So far 12 hours of debugging, a Rust RFC, working batch hashing for BLAKE2{b,s,bp,sp} and streaming hashing for BLAKE2b and BLAKE2s.
09:15:15  <nathan7>BLAKE2{s,b}p streaming is pending the RFC.
09:16:21  <jez0990>sounds wonderful! what was it in particular that convinced about the merits of BLAKE over everything else?
09:16:34  <jez0990>*convinced you
09:17:00  <nathan7>it's mad fast, it's co-designed by Zooko, and it features builtin HMAC
09:17:40  <nathan7>the parameter block even provides for personalisation so you can be a unique little snowflake with your own hash function
09:18:07  <nathan7>I'll most likely be using BLAKE2bp exclusively once I have it working, but I implemented the others for completeness.
09:19:53  <nathan7>it has nice long outputs too
09:20:16  <nathan7>and it uses ChaCha at its core, which is probably my favourite stream cipher at the moment
09:21:45  <nathan7>the BLAKE2xp functions (BLAKE2bp, BLAKE2sp) basically run several instances of the regular BLAKE2x in parallel using SIMD (4-way for BLAKE2bp, 8-way for BLAKE2sp)
09:22:20  <nathan7>so you get four times the throughput on a single core, basically
09:22:49  <nathan7>it's also a tree hash, so that makes parallelising it across cores easy too
09:23:13  <nathan7>(it's basically a Merkle tree inside for things >1 block)
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09:24:51  <nathan7>so if you're using the SIMD versions you can exploit both instruction-level parallelism and multicore parallelism
09:29:07  <nathan7>jez0990: so they pull a bunch of complex magic so your hash function can be pretty broken before it's insecure
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09:32:23  <jez0990>I see, that description really sells it actually
09:32:57  <nathan7>jez0990: which description? of BLAKE2 or XMMS?
09:34:15  <nathan7>heh, it's actually 60% faster than MD5
09:34:21  <nathan7>on a single core
09:34:28  <nathan7>and that's without all the parallel magic
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09:36:21  <jez0990>your description of BLAKE2 :)
09:36:42  <nathan7>C=
09:37:53  <nathan7>I'm intending to write the fastest implementation of BLAKE2bp for JS I can
09:38:02  <jez0990>I'm still very concerned about ASICs and two wherever 'fast' things are concerned
09:38:16  <jez0990>s/two/GPUs
09:38:20  <nathan7>it won't be as fast as native, but it'll move with the times
09:38:29  <nathan7>Your hash function /should/ be fast.
09:38:58  <nathan7>Build a key-derivation scheme on top if you want it to be slow.
09:40:23  <jez0990>true, they are separate abstractions of the platonic one-way function
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09:41:39  <nathan7>Every byte I write to my filesystem is hashed, I'd rather have hash functions be fast.
09:45:10  <jjjohnny>node algorithm specific integrated chipsets fuck yeah
09:46:45  <jjjohnny>asic mobile
09:47:47  <jez0990>one problem I have is that entropy blows my mind, it's too terrifying to consider rationally
09:48:16  <jjjohnny>entropy is like anarchy, what does it mean?
09:48:17  <jez0990>VHDLjs
09:50:31  <jez0990>jjjohnny: interesting. Anarchy to me means brutal competition, pure survival. Perhaps the bits are ...alive?
09:50:48  <nathan7>I've been thinking about building a dataflow language with a nice type system
09:52:14  <jez0990>nathan7: comparison with Elm, please?
09:52:23  <nathan7>jez0990: a systems language, dear.
09:52:36  <nathan7>jez0990: for like, FPGAs. raw bits and bytes.
09:52:53  * contrahaxchanged nick to _contrahax
09:54:45  <jez0990>ohhhhhhh, well it still can't be a world away, surely
10:00:47  <nathan7>jez0990: dataflow Rust, basically
10:06:29  <domanic_>jez0990, literally the eptimology of anarchy is "without leaders"
10:06:47  <domanic_>to me, that means we design the system we live inside
10:08:38  <jjjohnny>but what is entropy?
10:09:49  <Altreus>information
10:11:06  <nathan7>if you want a demonstration of entropy, come check out my bedroom
10:11:52  <nathan7>slowly slowly getting more disordered
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10:13:15  <jez0990>domanic_: in anarchy there is no "we"
10:14:08  <domanic_>we can have "we" with a leader
10:14:11  <jjjohnny>thats been done already, collective anarchy vs loner anarchy
10:14:35  <jjjohnny>there is no !we
10:14:45  <jez0990>"collective anarchy" <- we need a better name for this
10:17:28  <jjjohnny>partyarchy?
10:18:06  <jez0990>this is one way we can safely achieve partyarchy: https://vote.heliosvoting.org/ (verified elections with homomorphic encryption)
10:19:18  <jjjohnny>elections will not be necessary
10:19:41  <jez0990>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s (for background)
10:19:50  <jez0990>jjjohnny: not for electing people, but for electing memes
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10:21:07  <jjjohnny>DOGE FOR PEREZIDENT
10:21:08  <LOUDBOT>ONLY IF YOU LET ME SUCK YOUR DICK
10:21:51  <jjjohnny>DOGES DOO DOO DAT
10:21:51  <LOUDBOT>MASTER YOURSELF FIRST
10:24:07  <jez0990>"Strong Parties and Lame Ducks: Presidential Partyarchy and Factionalism in Venezuela (Stanford University Press, 1994)" name is taken, DAMN :(
10:24:39  <jjjohnny>nathan7: make sure yr os has mahjong or it is not a true os
10:25:06  <nathan7>jjjohnny: implement some Mahjong then
10:25:23  <nathan7>jjjohnny: I expect a Rust Mahjong implementation on my desk tomorrow, chop chop
10:25:30  <jjjohnny>pre bundled, or i dont install
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11:15:43  <substack>http://cyberwizardinstitute.github.io/
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11:16:11  <substack>ogd, jjjohnny ^^^
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12:25:25  <juliangruber>substack: html-select is missing index.js
12:26:48  <juliangruber>substack dat magic wand gi
12:26:49  <juliangruber>f
12:30:02  <substack>gaaaaah
12:30:06  <substack>npm bug >_<
12:34:02  <substack>http://cyber.wizard.institute/
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13:08:04  <juliangruber>nice
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13:26:37  <jez0990>substack: is the first thing you tell people when they visit the institute that they are, in actual fact, already a wizard?
13:27:40  <substack>YOU'RE A WIZARD HARRY
13:27:40  <LOUDBOT>THEN TAKE DOWN ALL THOSE GODDAMNED EXPERTSEXCHANGE ARTICLES DAMMIT
13:28:00  <jez0990>muggles are a fiction
13:29:51  <nathan7>BUT I'M JUST HARRY
13:29:51  <LOUDBOT>IT'S NOT GOING TO BE JOINT FOR VERY MUCH LONGER
13:33:43  <substack>WELL OK JUST HARRY GET TO ASS ON THIS MAGICAL FUCKIN MOTORBIKE WE ARE GOING TO WIZARD SCHOOL
13:33:43  <LOUDBOT>NEVER. EVER. OF ALL TIME.
13:35:27  <jez0990>HARRY BE TRIPPIN'
13:35:27  <LOUDBOT>I AM ALSO TYPING UP STUFF AT WORK
13:39:48  <jez0990>jjjohnny: entropy http://www.boredpanda.com/nature-reclaiming-civilization/
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13:57:04  <toddself>i can't see experts exchange without thinking expert sex change
13:57:10  <toddself>it's unpossible to unsee it
13:57:15  <nathan7>well thanks
13:57:47  <nathan7>I'm trying to find a counter, but the best my brain can come up with is the FedEx arrow.
13:58:48  <toddself>which is also impossible to unsee once you see it
13:59:30  <toddself>Also there's a bear on the mountain which is hte tolberone logo
13:59:38  <toddself>toblerone
14:00:27  <toddself>http://uploads.macacovelho.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/toblerone.jpg
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17:43:14  <jjjohnny>substack: wah woo woo
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17:51:04  <ednapiranha>substack: we're loading audio now on the chat lol
17:51:14  <ednapiranha>which pulls from a json file on my dropbox
17:51:21  <ednapiranha>of available tracks in some random order
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19:08:38  <domanic>nathan7, yo
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19:15:18  <nathan7>domanic: yoyo
19:15:30  <nathan7>domanic: now I gotta recall what I wanted to tell you
19:17:54  <nathan7>domanic: I'm looking at schemes for compact Winternitz signatures, but I'm now blocked on reading the XMSS paper that jez0990 gave me
19:18:22  <domanic>I have not heard of XMSS
19:19:02  <nathan7>domanic: http://nathan7.eu/stuff/literature/crypto/XMSS.pdf
19:19:05  <nathan7>err, derp
19:19:10  <nathan7>my rsync is behind, a few moments please
19:19:18  <nathan7>there
19:19:21  <domanic>nathan7, tldr?
19:19:51  <nathan7>domanic: it's a more complex version of a scheme I came up with this morning
19:20:17  <domanic>oh that scheme!
19:20:41  <nathan7>domanic: basically, derive the leaf nodes of your Winternitz chain Merkle tree from a chained one-way function
19:20:55  <domanic>HMAC?
19:21:14  <domanic>how big are the signatures?
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19:26:34  <nathan7>domanic: same, the key size is reduced a lot, and you get forward secrecy
19:26:55  <nathan7>domanic: XMSS has all this complexity so it's still good even if your hash functions are terribly pwnt
19:27:05  <nathan7>domanic: BLAKE2 has builtin HMAC
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19:29:48  <domanic>nathan7, so if you have a signed feed is there a way to verify the signature in the middle without replicating the entire feed?
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19:46:38  <domanic>nathan7, about impermanence...
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19:46:46  <nathan7>domanic: hmm?
19:46:49  <domanic>so I'm planning ephemeral messages...
19:46:53  <nathan7>yes…
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19:47:07  <domanic>these would be replicated, but not stored on disk - not on the permanent feed
19:47:18  <nathan7>mhm
19:47:40  <domanic>they would still be replicated in order, but they would just be dropped after (say) a few hours
19:48:27  <domanic>so "lets meet at <resturant>" can disappear, or "I'm out raged about <scandal>" can be forgotten
19:49:13  <domanic>other things like "i published [email protected]" should be permanent, or like a blog post
19:49:18  <domanic>probably
19:49:40  <domanic>users should be able to make a concious decision about whether they choose permanence
19:49:48  <nathan7>mhm
19:49:58  <domanic>mind you, somethings would only work with permanence
19:50:15  <domanic>like, ephemeral wikipedia would be a waste of time...
19:50:18  <nathan7>heh
19:50:26  <nathan7>I still want semi-ephemeral twitter
19:50:58  <domanic>how ephemeral is that?
19:51:13  <domanic>a day? a week?
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20:05:09  <nathan7>domanic: I was considering a month
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20:09:34  <domanic>why a month?
20:09:50  <nathan7>long enough that messages make their way to everyone
20:09:56  <nathan7>like, few weeks of travel, w/e
20:10:48  <domanic>what if user can choose day,week,month,permanent?
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20:14:39  <thealphanerd>anyone know a way to set where browserify will look for transforms? I have a script bundling something that lives in the tmpdir, and when I try to load a transform it looks there rather than the current project direcotry
20:22:03  <domanic>thealphanerd, it's gotta be npm installed into the project that needs the transforms
20:22:10  <thealphanerd>it currently is
20:22:28  <thealphanerd>I guess this is just an odd edge case
20:22:38  <thealphanerd>the project is transforming a file living in TMPDIR
20:22:53  <thealphanerd>its a build tool, storing intermediate artifacts there
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20:24:57  <thealphanerd>I could solve this with a symlink… but that is kind of like a giant fu to windows… although the tool is already totally not working on windows
20:25:00  <thealphanerd>blargh
20:26:14  <nathan7>domanic: well, they can choose at any point to have the past up to then forgotten
20:26:41  <nathan7>domanic: or if they've switched keys, those are additional options
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20:28:39  <domanic>nathan7, that isn't simple
20:29:03  <domanic>also deleting all your open source or wiki contributions is a dick move
20:30:03  <domanic>but most of all, it complicates the replication system immensly
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20:30:22  <domanic>ephemeral messages would be simple, though
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20:30:35  <domanic>and you can always just create a new identity
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20:31:52  <nathan7>domanic: it doesn't
20:31:58  <nathan7>domanic: unless you can't handle key compromise
20:32:20  <nathan7>domanic: privkey announcement == key compromise
20:33:06  <domanic>nathan7, okay so announce your keys and people can forge your messages
20:33:14  <domanic>but there is one thing you can't forge
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20:33:39  <domanic>_other peoples messages that link to your messages_
20:33:56  <domanic>you can't forge that, unless you have their keys and so on
20:34:26  <domanic>also, if I put the hash of your old message in the block chain, then it proves it was old
20:34:48  <nathan7>yes
20:34:58  <nathan7>which is why the cooperation is required
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20:35:39  <anvaka>hey guys, I made a screencast to show that it's possible to use npm for client side assets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27GYm6nRv6E
20:35:52  <domanic>but that is too complicated - and there are more valuable things than anonymity
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20:36:04  <anvaka>it's my second screencast I ever made, but I hope it could be helpful to ruin "npm is for the server" myth
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20:40:17  <nathan7>domanic: maybe, maybe
20:41:04  <domanic>the most important thing is simplicity
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