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00:33:28  <jjjohnny>ogd: found a bug with requirebin, if you don't require any modules, you have to prepend your code with a semicolon, else error
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00:34:05  <ogd>jjjohnny: https://github.com/maxogden/requirebin/issues/32
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00:54:02  <jjjohnny>ogd this looks like a fix https://github.com/maxogden/browser-module-sandbox/commits/master/index.js
00:54:31  <jjjohnny>the last commit by juliangruber
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00:55:17  <ogd>im pretty sure 1.3.7 is running in production
00:55:35  <ogd>lemme double check
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00:56:53  <ogd>jjjohnny: ok just deployed 1.3.7 (if it wasnt already running)
00:57:23  <ogd>to requirebin.dom
00:57:44  <ogd>jjjohnny: cool seems to work now
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01:59:36  <jjjohnny>ogd: will you also update wzrd.in to latest browserify/cdn por favor
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02:01:40  <ogd>jjjohnny: done
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02:18:52  <jjjohnny>woot thanks
02:19:31  <jesusabdullah>One of these days I'll migrate my shit to amazon
02:19:42  <jesusabdullah>and look into hooking wzrd.in into continuous deployment
02:21:38  <jjjohnny>if only browserify worked in the browser...
02:21:47  <ogd>it does
02:22:01  <ogd>(experimentally) https://github.com/mafintosh/browserify-browserify
02:22:34  <jjjohnny>shi
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02:27:07  <jjjohnny>mafintosh is a super duper
02:50:03  <mikolalysenko_>whoa, a whole bunch of haters: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2rng2c/javascript_modularity_shaming/
02:50:35  <mikolalysenko_>also, is-root seems like a pretty good module to me
02:50:47  <mikolalysenko_>but maybe I have just drank too much of the koolaid
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02:55:28  <jesusabdullah>It's about motivations, mikolalysenko_
02:55:34  <jesusabdullah>people don't pick up on this nuance
02:55:59  <jesusabdullah>a short module can be good if it expresses an idiom you'd otherwise have to look up Every Fucking Time you ran into the need for it
02:56:09  <jesusabdullah>even if you're skeptical of hypermodularity
02:59:37  <mikolalysenko_>maybe just a natural human reaction against things that are different
02:59:50  <mikolalysenko_>in-group vs out-group
03:00:00  <jesusabdullah>possibly
03:00:05  <mikolalysenko_>perhaps even my own confusion or irritation with these discussions is the same
03:00:09  <jesusabdullah>but I think there's a kernel of truth on "both" sides
03:00:26  <jesusabdullah>modularity does come with diminishing returns
03:00:56  <mikolalysenko_>yeah, the one problem I do find is that you get modules of highly variable quality...
03:01:17  <jesusabdullah>you get that regardless
03:01:36  <jesusabdullah>lodash is of very high quality, for instance, and it's totally a "grab-bag utility module"
03:01:51  <jesusabdullah>and I know I've written tons of crap micro--modules
03:02:10  <jesusabdullah>on the flipside, I know tons of shitty "large" modules and some fantastic micromodules
03:02:11  <mikolalysenko_>sure, I think everyone is guilty of writing crappy modules to some extent
03:02:38  <mikolalysenko_>you have to be a little shameless to really try pushing stuff out there, but the only way to write the good ones is to have lots of practice writing crappy ones
03:03:03  <mikolalysenko_>I wish there was a way to call out bad modules and high light good modules without it becoming acrimonious/turning into a circle jerk
03:03:59  <jesusabdullah>Nobody likes calling out crap, it's by nature not very kind
03:04:17  <jesusabdullah>and, unfortunately, nobody can agree on what "good" means
03:04:42  <jesusabdullah>I was telling ryan florence last night, a favorite quote of mine is "There's no such thing as 'oh fuck I drew his leg backwards' in writing" and I think it applies to code just as well
03:05:13  <mikolalysenko_>but at the same time everyone writes crap sometimes, and sometimes it is good to just detach from it and learn and move on
03:05:29  <jesusabdullah>yeah, for sure
03:05:31  <reqshark__>haha JavaScript circle jerk! those haters are pretty funny, i laughed when i read that one. but why invest so much time reading through a huge dependency? I'd rather read code in a short dep. why would u want to pin greater quantities of moving parts on single points? that's not professional gambling. real gamblers hedge their bets
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03:06:09  <jesusabdullah>reqshark: one sec and I'll respond to that with some level of detail
03:07:25  <reqshark>jesusabdullah, dope, also i think having haters is a strong sign of success
03:11:02  <jesusabdullah>so like, touching on haters for a second: It's hard to know what's actually Good or Bad in software. We all come up with rules of thumb, but it's hard to know which of those rules are correct how much of the time, and it's hard to explain *why* something is bothersome when it *is* bothersome, especially when there really is a bad smell
03:11:26  <jesusabdullah>you can smell something bad but you can't quite identify the source, so you blame your roommate's chinese food
03:12:43  <jesusabdullah>but coming back to moving parts---ie, why you would want larger modules
03:13:04  <reqshark>wow that's insightful, keep going
03:13:11  <jesusabdullah>on one level, there's a trade-off between having to manage a project, vs managing dependencies
03:13:18  <jesusabdullah>if you have a really deeply nested chain of dependencies
03:13:23  <jesusabdullah>say, a <- b <- c
03:13:29  <jesusabdullah>behavior in c informs behavior in a
03:13:35  <jesusabdullah>and you want to propogate that behavior
03:13:41  <jesusabdullah>you have to update dependencies in b, and then again in a
03:13:51  <jesusabdullah>whereas if it were all one module you wouldn't have to do that
03:14:03  <jesusabdullah>that's one potential downside to small dependencies
03:14:14  <jesusabdullah>it's not the worst thing, but it's a factor
03:14:27  <jesusabdullah>and something you'll see hypermodularity skeptics at least try to complain about
03:14:36  <mikolalysenko_>it also depends a lot on the nature of the dependencies
03:14:39  <reqshark>correct if you assemble the requirements in A and B into C you eliminate management needs in A and B
03:14:48  <jesusabdullah>Right.
03:15:00  <mikolalysenko_>those types of issues are more of a problem with poorly defined or scoped problems
03:15:04  <jesusabdullah>And that can be a worthwhile trade-off, depending on what a, b and c actually *are*
03:15:05  <mikolalysenko_>which tend to make for bad modules
03:15:18  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko_: so maybe the scope needs to be larger? ;)
03:15:24  <mikolalysenko_>it may be
03:15:25  <reqshark>wait a minute
03:15:38  <reqshark>Newton said energy is neither gained nor lost
03:15:45  <reqshark>it gets transferred
03:15:51  <jesusabdullah>this isn't newtonian physics, this is software
03:16:04  <mikolalysenko_>and software engineering no less, which isn't really a science
03:16:18  <mikolalysenko_>the mathematical bits of programming everyone sane at least agrees on
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03:16:41  <jesusabdullah>if you were however to make parallels with thermodynamics you'd have to drag in the second law
03:16:43  <mikolalysenko_>things like time complexity, memory, scaling etc are all measurable and easy to agree on what is better or worse
03:16:47  <reqshark>Oh its super scientific, it's definitely physics, so when you move these requirements from A and B into C, you've only transferred them as components, they would still need to be maintained depending their individual complexity
03:17:04  <jesusabdullah>but what of entropy?
03:17:13  * tilgoviquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
03:17:20  <reqshark>what of it? remind me what that means
03:17:35  <jesusabdullah>the total amount of code is more or less conserved, sure, but what of the total amount of order vs disorder?
03:18:04  <jesusabdullah>what is the gibbs free energy equilibrium of a software ecosystem? ;)
03:18:13  <reqshark>entropy is about scaling shit
03:18:14  <mikolalysenko_>who knows! this is a really strained metaphor
03:18:24  <jesusabdullah>exactly my point, mikolalysenko_ XD
03:18:31  <mikolalysenko_>yeah, I think we are in agreement
03:18:40  <mikolalysenko_>engineering is more art, aesthetics and experience
03:18:48  <mikolalysenko_>and as a result it comes with biases
03:18:50  <jesusabdullah>so that's just one legitimate argument regarding the value of larger module scope
03:18:51  <reqshark>for sure
03:19:13  <jesusabdullah>but the real meat of this is a philosophical difference between the two extremes of a Web Framework vs Code Legos
03:19:17  <reqshark>it's mostly creative i think
03:19:55  <jesusabdullah>substack, and many others in this channel, prefer to work with code legos when it comes to building web services, and they don't really understand the value in frameworks
03:20:07  <jesusabdullah>but the truth is, there *is* value in full stack frameworks
03:20:16  <jesusabdullah>it's a trade-off between choice vs convention for sure
03:20:29  <mikolalysenko_>yeah, though it is hard to really articulate this value
03:20:49  <mikolalysenko_>my gut feeling (and this is possibly just bias) is that frameworks are a product of confusion
03:20:49  <jesusabdullah>but there are a *lot* of people---and smart, capable people that could easily go the code lego approach if they wanted to---that would choose to Just Use Rails
03:21:05  <mikolalysenko_>well, it may be there is no viable lego alternative
03:21:26  <mikolalysenko_>part of the trouble is that for sufficiently complex problems you don't really understand up front what you have to do
03:21:43  <mikolalysenko_>so you just go out and start hacking stuff, and almost assuredly you will end up with some monolithic framework
03:21:43  <jesusabdullah>one nice thing about web frameworks is that, if your problem fits well within the CRUD paradigm without too much squirming, rails will Just Work
03:22:01  <reqshark>ya i guess it depends on the framework, but the backdrop context of frameworks vs. modules is pre-objectObserve(). I think having control over the changes, and how those propagate is what led to the battle
03:22:01  <jesusabdullah>and something like 90% of web software is in fact CRUD
03:22:29  <reqshark> well idk, but it sure seems like people who don't care about control over their runtime prefer frameworks
03:22:47  <jesusabdullah>that's not to say they don't CARE
03:23:03  <jesusabdullah>or even that people who eschew frameworks somehow care MORE than those that embrace them
03:23:19  <jesusabdullah>Many of these decisions don't really matter in the grand scheme of things
03:23:34  <jesusabdullah>and the lego approach forces you to actively make those decisions
03:23:57  <reqshark>i dont know i used to AngularJS for a long time from like October 2012 until earlier this year, that shit is fucked up
03:24:15  <jesusabdullah>just like anything, there are good frameworks and then there are shitty frameworks
03:24:25  <jesusabdullah>angularjs has a lot of really awkward problems
03:24:42  <mikolalysenko_>the problem generally though is that frameworks tend to be unclear about what their goals and scope are
03:24:45  <reqshark>it forced me to learn some really weird shit about javascript and also to embrace promises
03:24:47  <mikolalysenko_>and what problems they are trying to solve
03:24:56  <jesusabdullah>well no mikolalysenko_, the problems and scope are very clear
03:25:21  <mikolalysenko_>I disagree in general; take angular for instance: what does it really do?
03:25:22  <reqshark>i would rather have a regular callback
03:25:25  <jesusabdullah>it's generally some variation on Models which are backed by a database (so ORM/ODM/activerecord/whatever)
03:25:36  <mikolalysenko_>ok, but even that is very vague
03:25:50  <jesusabdullah>combined with some form of view (this can be as simple as representing your model as JSON but could also involve templates)
03:25:52  <mikolalysenko_>there isn't really a 1-sentence non-bullshit explanation of angular
03:26:01  <jesusabdullah>and some way of mapping routes to views and actions
03:26:23  <mikolalysenko_>yeah, but models, views and actions are all ambiguous notions
03:26:30  <jesusabdullah>90% of the web is wanting to talk about Some Article, being able to view that article at a predictable endpoint, and using other endpoints to modify said model
03:26:43  <jesusabdullah>well no, these too have more rigorous definitions
03:27:34  <reqshark>AngularJS is a wild type of DOM restriction around an uncontrolled 20 millisecond setInterval that can't be understand or found up the prototype chain
03:27:45  <jesusabdullah>with models, you have concepts of Types (the classes) and entities (instances), and some concept of backing those with a database
03:28:01  <mikolalysenko_>is that true for angular?
03:28:10  <jesusabdullah>I'm mostly talking about server-side frameworks here
03:28:14  <mikolalysenko_>oh, right
03:28:15  <reqshark>definitely thats what controller is
03:28:29  <reqshark>directives are given a break from the setInterval
03:28:35  <reqshark>as well as factories
03:28:37  <jesusabdullah>views are how you take those model instances and represent them for the user
03:28:56  <reqshark>ok but angular doesnt have views
03:28:59  <jesusabdullah>well, in the case of angular---and I think angular has a lot of design flaws---the pattern is a little different
03:29:17  <jesusabdullah>not quite reqshark
03:29:21  <mikolalysenko_>right, but I picked angular arbitrarily
03:29:27  <mikolalysenko_>it is wildly different for each framework
03:29:34  <reqshark>it just has controllers and then a dom with ng-shit up in your attributes that map to the controllers
03:29:38  <mikolalysenko_>these concepts like model, view, action etc. are all relative
03:29:54  <mikolalysenko_>vague language and community specific terms with no technical meaning
03:30:17  <jesusabdullah>Sure, you can move some of these parts around---for instance, angular conflates strict models and views via bidirectional data binding
03:30:28  <mikolalysenko_>not that vagueness is all bad and that frameworks are not useful
03:30:31  <jesusabdullah>that may be true mikolalysenko_, but the core problem remains the same
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03:31:06  <jesusabdullah>at the end of the day, 90% of the web is a pile of different Types of Things which are somehow related to one another, and the need to be able to CRUD it up with them
03:31:50  <jesusabdullah>and about the 80th time you hand-roll it, you start to wonder if maybe having used rails those other 79 times would've saved you effort
03:32:32  <jesusabdullah>I'm not saying rails is the be-all end-all, or even that rails is good
03:32:35  <reqshark>yea jesusabdullah, i agree with you, it's CRUD, but i do enjoy the vdom stuff much more
03:33:23  <jesusabdullah>and I think there's a lot of value in writing your framework such that you can easily mix and match pieces of it (maybe you don't want to use SQL, maybe you want to manage your own GD asset pipeline, etc, etc)
03:33:42  <jesusabdullah>but having a set of tools that makes these decisions for you until you see fit to make different ones, has value
03:34:17  <reqshark>well you end up spending more effort decomposing some aspect of the framework that may not suit a particular edge case tho, in that way, the time saved by reliance on a pre-packaged solution to common problems is balanced backward somewhat
03:34:27  <jesusabdullah>You may, or you may not
03:34:32  <jesusabdullah>it depends on your project
03:34:38  <reqshark>correct
03:34:42  <reqshark>pick the tool for the job
03:35:03  <jesusabdullah>there are a number of projects where I could just specify some models in django and use the default admin ux and be g2g
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03:35:12  <jesusabdullah>minus some custom lifecycle hooks
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03:35:21  <reqshark>haha
03:35:38  <jesusabdullah>on the other hand, building browserify-cdn with a full-stack framework would've been a fool's errand
03:35:47  <jesusabdullah>because the way the routes work is pretty much 100% custom
03:36:00  <jesusabdullah>and I don't use a traditional database As Such
03:36:17  <jesusabdullah>that said, making changes in that project is time-intensive, which is why I'm such a terrible maintainer
03:36:55  <reqshark>well i'd rather do route handling on the client with a hashtag thing or html5 hidden hashtag thing History API based or whatever
03:37:14  <jesusabdullah>honestly, me too
03:46:48  <reqshark>these days i'm intrigued by kernel networking + software virtualization driven by JS, eth0 full interface support, like this one is so cool: http://s-macke.github.io/jor1k
04:03:48  <substack>the routes module is pretty good
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04:17:04  <reqshark>substack, and the url module
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04:29:10  <jjjohnny>i used the routes module
04:29:31  <jjjohnny>no i dont
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05:01:33  <jjjohnny>jesusabdullah: browserify-cdn is good enough, plus anyone can run their own!
05:02:12  <jesusabdullah>Ideally I'd rejigger it to have worker pools (probably backed by gearman) and a real cdn
05:02:22  <jjjohnny>wzrd.in is sweet
05:02:41  <jjjohnny>i forever cached my app at node.module.club on htmlb
05:02:44  <jjjohnny>https://56375013e59092b1f486c6cd3b3ae2fa22737a52.htmlb.in
05:02:58  <jjjohnny>which uses wzrd.in
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05:16:47  <jjjohnny>lol spam from ispapi.com
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05:38:05  <feross>substack: there are some simple PRs out to browserify that i could review and merge. would that help you?
05:39:37  <substack>feross: sure, if you want to cut some releases that would be great!
05:40:15  <feross>substack: cool, i'll do that.
05:40:31  * substackpretty busy with cyberwizard until jan 30th
05:46:50  <substack>feross: if you want to do an `npm publish` just add a changelog entry
05:47:11  <feross>substack: okay, will do
05:47:23  <substack>would be great to get a few releases cut by people who aren't me
05:59:38  <feross>substack: can you add me as an npm owner? i can't publish
06:03:44  <feross>substack: planning to release 8.1.0 with this changelog: https://gist.github.com/feross/61c2692232ccae15c279
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06:22:59  <substack>feross: whoops thought I had already done that
06:23:02  <substack>added!
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06:25:57  <feross>browserify 8.1.0 is released!
06:26:04  <substack>great job! \o
06:26:21  <feross>substack: let me know if i need to do anything differently
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07:22:19  <terinjokes>feross: ^5
07:22:50  <terinjokes>i feel a little rude, as that's very similar to my process.nextTick and I didn't think yo upstream it :(
07:36:29  <feross>terinjokes: ??
07:37:22  <terinjokes>high five for 8.1.0
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09:49:05  <feross>substack: apparently a porn company asked Google to remove one of your modules from search
09:49:06  <feross>http://torrentfreak.com/google-porn-takedowns-carpet-bomb-github-150107/
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10:37:06  <wao>:D
10:43:05  <mafintosh>haha thats epic
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13:56:37  <mafintosh>substack: you could use multicast-dns and txt records in https://github.com/substack/whereami and loose the server :)
13:56:57  <mafintosh>assuming your devices are on the same network
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14:19:50  <yoshuawuyts>mafintosh: ooh, cool
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16:20:53  <mikolalysenko_>I started adding some of my algorithms to this list https://github.com/tejasmanohar/npm-algos, but then saw the link at the bottom asking for money
16:21:21  <mikolalysenko_>it seems like a bit of a shady thing to be pulling together a big directory of other peoples stuff and then using it to pan handle
16:22:35  <mikolalysenko_>especially when you haven't written any of the modules on there yourself even!
16:24:13  <mikolalysenko_>maybe I shouldn't be as offended by this thing
16:24:28  <mikolalysenko_>I guess I have no problem, and even think it is useful for people to build directories/lists like this
16:25:03  <mikolalysenko_>but trying to ask for money to do it seems a little off putting, like you are trying to pass off other people's work as your own and make cash from it
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