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00:08:27  <parshap>substack: is there a html-stringify counterpart to html-tokenize?
00:09:14  <parshap>substack: is there a html-stringify counterpart to html-tokenize?
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06:48:28  <owen1>https://andywalpole.me/#!/blog/142134/2015-the-end-the-monolithic-javascript-framework
06:51:35  <substack>#5 is completely wrong
06:54:30  * therealkoopajoined
06:56:18  <paul_irish>most of it is … just bad.
06:58:44  <substack>yes
06:59:18  <substack>one of the most important characteristics of a library is how easy it is to integrate with existing code and how easy it will be to toss it in favor of something else
06:59:40  <substack>(for me)
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07:03:20  * owen1waits for substack.js - modular, focused libraries for SPA
07:05:35  <substack>owen1: https://npmjs.org already does that
07:07:13  <owen1>substack: not really, it's not practical to search all day for small libraries. that's why mercury.js is interesting. we need a 'glue' package. or maybe a github org. some roof that help in deciding what libs to use.
07:07:47  <substack>sure it is, I search npm all the time
07:07:54  <substack>you've just got to know what to look for
07:08:16  <paul_irish>substack has written a guide on evaluating modules for quality, too :)
07:08:26  <substack>truf
07:08:51  <substack>owen1: like recently I made https://github.com/substack/substack-flavored-webapp
07:09:02  <substack>I'll do one for frontend libs soonish, still making a few more backend ones
07:09:25  <owen1>paul_irish: i know that guide. but the issue is many people don't have the expertise require in order to evaluate each aspect of their app.
07:09:32  <substack>like this one for databasey https://github.com/substack/example-user-website
07:09:49  <substack>owen1: then we should teach people how to evaluate packages
07:09:55  <substack>teach them how to fish
07:10:34  <paul_irish>owen1: yeah i agree. hard to scale the everyone-decide-for-themselves. paradox of choice. guidance and community trends are valuable points of influence.
07:10:44  <owen1>substack: the link you provided is a gist. it's not enough to understand how to build a complete SPA (unless your name is dominic tarr etc)
07:11:16  <substack>owen1: https://github.com/cyberwizardinstitute/workshops for more depth :p
07:11:26  <owen1>most people will be clueless with regards to trumpet and how it's even related to their real life problems that are now stuck in the depths of ng directives (:
07:11:51  <paul_irish>owen1: for better or worse the frontend will always have this struggle between large, monolithic solutions and the more modularly composed approach
07:12:20  <paul_irish>i'm OK with both approaches, personally. plenty of advantages either way
07:12:43  <substack>paul_irish: I think that balance depends somewhat on the growth rate of programming
07:13:16  <substack>it's been in rapid growth mode for a while, but if that growth starts to sigmoid people with more experience will make up more of the bulk of the curve
07:13:35  <substack>and I think the modular approach trends however weakly toward advanced users
07:13:42  <paul_irish>certainly does
07:13:48  <substack>(as much as I think beginners are perfectly capable of learning modular principles)
07:14:20  <substack>but there is much more content about big libraries, so beginners will mostly trend in those directions
07:14:27  <paul_irish>getting a lot of functionality "for free" is certainly a quick start to productive development
07:14:40  <paul_irish>yes and the community size aspects too
07:15:01  <substack>but nothing is ever free :p
07:15:09  <substack>there's always some trade-off to be aware of
07:15:12  <paul_irish>cyberwizard institute is free
07:15:21  <paul_irish>:p
07:15:40  <substack>the price of cyberwizard is that you get the one-sided substack angle on everything
07:15:46  <paul_irish>hahah for sure :)
07:15:55  <paul_irish>i think that's easily worth the price then
07:16:12  <paul_irish>looked at the schedule a week ago and it looked great.
07:16:14  <paul_irish>having fun?
07:16:15  <owen1>substack: what people need to see is a REAL site using a modular approach. real site can be somthing with login/logout/register/forgot password/view my twitter lists/post to twitter. it's a site with multiple components and 'pages' and some state.
07:16:26  <substack>paul_irish: yep folks have been learning so much!
07:16:30  <substack>it's exausting though
07:16:34  <paul_irish>yeah i bet1
07:16:48  <substack>just did basics of the dom today https://github.com/cyberwizardinstitute/workshops/blob/master/dom.markdown
07:17:51  <substack>I am really surprised at how many people are using the command-line and vim for everything after blasting them with instruction for 4+ hours
07:18:01  <substack>and screen, ssh, etc
07:18:14  <substack>the standard hackerspace dev stack
07:18:18  <paul_irish>hot
07:18:29  <ogd>whats the macbook vs thinkpad percentages?
07:18:59  <substack>ogd: probably about half macbooks, quarter thinkpads, quarther other
07:19:10  <ogd>ah nice
07:19:42  <substack>once everybody is on mac or linux the rest goes soooo much faster
07:19:52  <substack>and once you teach them up on the basics of the command-line too
07:20:33  <substack>teaching the command-line early has contextualized everything in very simple terms, so everybody has been keeping up really well with that basis
07:24:13  <owen1>paul_irish: good point about 'paradox of choice'. and it's not just 'teaching them to search for npm modules'. it's teaching them the technical aspects of an SPA. for example - v-dom. or the need to dif the v-dom. and how to communicate between my 'view' and the 'model'? should it be reactive (like cycle.js) or interactive (like mercury) etc..
07:26:08  <owen1>without understanding many conpects, a team should be crazy to choose something like substack-flavored-webapp
07:27:39  <owen1>at least with angular the team can spend a few days at the docs and maybe find some stuff on stackoverflow if they are stuck
07:29:02  <substack>I kind of doubt that :/
07:29:22  <substack>with stuff like angular it's so easy to code yourself into a hole that is so hard to escape from
07:30:40  <substack>software is just hard and no library is going to save you from that
07:35:18  <mafintosh>substack: 99% of software i write is bad. this is why i write small things so i can easily replace them (with other bad software) at some point
07:37:47  <ogd>more like 98
07:41:14  <mafintosh>ogd: only if you count the different ways i spell my name
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19:54:53  <brianc>howdy
19:55:12  <brianc>I've been trying to track down a memory leak in the new node-postres C bindings for over a month
19:55:24  <brianc>I'm pretty close but I think its slightly out of my understanding
19:55:32  <brianc>would anyone have a few min to look at something w/ me & possibly give me any tips?
19:55:48  <brianc>everything is fine until the object is collected by V8
19:56:01  <brianc>once the object is collected _in very rare circumstances_ I get a double free error
19:56:19  <brianc>if I never this->Unref(); the object the error never happens (though I leak memory that way)
19:56:35  <brianc>sometimes the error message is a segfault
19:56:38  <brianc>sometimes its Assertion failed: (value == obj->handle_), function WeakCallback, file ../src/node_object_wrap.h, line 118.
19:56:46  <brianc>but it only happens if I Unref() the objects
20:00:55  <brianc>must be some sort of race condition because it only happens about .5% of the time, under heavy memory pressure conditions
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20:33:17  <ogd>brianc: sounds like a job for chrisdickinson or trevnorris!
20:33:40  <trevnorris>what and whose-its?
20:34:05  <trevnorris>I assume this is for v0.10, or you using nan?
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20:52:42  <brianc>trevnorris: using nan
20:53:07  <brianc>i upgraded to newest version of nan & now I can't reproduce so....there's hope
20:53:19  <brianc>since it only happens rarely it takes forever to reproduce
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22:44:11  <ogd>Raynos: just curious, what do you like about http-hash-router over routes-router?
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23:16:59  <mafintosh>does anyone use the through.ctor method?
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23:56:42  <substack>mafintosh: I've never used that
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