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00:41:05  <jjjohnny_>who wants to come to a stimm party in hackistan this weekend?
00:41:28  <jjjohnny_>its happening either sat or sunday maybe ambos dias
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00:57:24  <jjjohnny_>substack: yr sound studio doesn't seem to wanna let me use functional expression below the return
00:57:27  <jjjohnny_>is it me?
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02:12:41  <jjjohnny_>https://soundcloud.com/folkstack/johnny-modulator
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06:49:36  <feross>"...capitalists didn’t understand what the internet was but knew it was important and started buying everything they could. This led to the dot-com bubble of the late nighties. And in order to monetize on their investments, they invested in centralized computing because they can’t control communication of peer-to-peer software. They need the central
06:49:36  <feross>control because it is the clearest way to get a return on their investment."
06:49:40  <feross>"In other words, capital investment moved heavily towards centralized services instead of peer-to-peer ones, starving peer-to-peer software development of resources. The brightest and most well paid engineers now concentrate their minds and bodies to build centralized systems."
06:49:49  <feross>From: https://mempko.wordpress.com/2015/04/02/the-shadow-of-the-cloud-on-grass-computing/
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17:03:51  <jjjohnny_>feross: one thing that scares me about webRTC is that it is a hack that could be killed if ISPs change their subnet routing, cuz its a hacky workaround
17:04:19  <jjjohnny_>but I may be naive on that point, I hope so
17:04:44  <jjjohnny_>then again, they never used that as a BT kill switch
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17:15:23  <jjjohnny_>i say this having attempted naive NAT traversal with some success
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17:23:40  <jjjohnny_>feross: also that guy shoulda called it bamboo computing
17:23:51  <jjjohnny_>grass and bamboo are both rhizomes
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18:36:50  <kumavis>is there a levelup interface for postgres?
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18:38:01  <greweb>Hi guys
18:38:31  <jjjohnny_>kumavis: https://github.com/calvinmetcalf/SQLdown
18:38:34  <greweb>quick question: should I define transformers in "dependencies" or "devDependencies" ? seems I'm having issues with devDependencies
18:38:41  <greweb>browserify transformers*
18:39:14  <kumavis>wheeeeeeee jjjohnny_
18:39:31  <jjjohnny_>greweb: browserify has its own field for transforms, and the module should be a dep
18:39:48  <jjjohnny_>kumavis: i checked the dat project for that
18:39:52  <greweb>I'm using that field yet. ok so all of that in dependencies :-) thanks
18:39:57  <greweb>yes*
18:40:01  <kumavis>ahhh, thats a good idea
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20:33:38  <feross>jjjohnny_: they can't kill WebRTC without killing lots of legitimate services too. Hangouts, the next version of Skype, and lots of tinier apps
20:34:47  <feross>Also, NAT traversal is used by desktop Skype and lots of multiplayer games. Unlikely anyone will mess with it.
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20:47:19  <jjjohnny_>well then maybe it is better this way
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20:58:53  <mikolalysenko>have any of you guys tried out zerotier?
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21:33:04  <substack>Domenic: what changed in tape 4.0.0?
21:34:03  <Domenic>substack: dropped Node 0.8 support
21:34:14  <Domenic>substack: https://github.com/substack/tape/releases/tag/v4.0.0
21:34:35  <substack>I don't know about that
21:34:40  <substack>it still works fine in 0.8
21:34:46  <substack>this is more a travis config issue
21:34:54  <Domenic>substack: right, well, it's a default-install-of-0.8 issue
21:35:08  <Domenic>I was kind of debating in https://github.com/substack/tape/pull/152 whether dropping support for old npms would consitute a major version bump
21:35:16  <substack>I usually don't
21:35:25  <Domenic>substack: we can add back "0.8 support" with new npm certainly.
21:36:04  <substack>the old version of npm is unusable, everybody is going to have a newer version
21:38:40  <substack>but anyways, this way works too
21:39:07  <substack>I was just a bit concerned that something backwards incompatible happened to the api when I saw the 4.0
21:39:37  <Domenic>yeah understandable
21:40:26  <substack>could do changelogs but those are heaps of work
21:40:35  <substack>I'm only doing that for browserify at the moment
21:41:17  <Domenic>I'll probably do it from now on (using the releases feature), since tape is not tooo active
21:50:57  <terinjokes>substack: i was thinking about adding 0.8 back to module-deps
21:51:06  <terinjokes>since browserify still tests on travis for it
21:51:14  <substack>terinjokes: probably a good idea
21:51:40  <terinjokes>after yesterday's ordeal (when i unknowingly created today's ordeal. le sigh)
21:51:40  <substack>oh goodness so many poorly constructed gulp builds just broke >_<
21:51:45  <ogd>this also broke cause of ^ https://travis-ci.org/substack/minimist/jobs/53891857
21:52:14  <substack>terinjokes: I don't blame you at all for that, surprising that those builds worked at all
21:52:14  <terinjokes>substack: i'm just happy i didn't get any 3am sqlite-style phone calls with threats
21:52:44  <substack>also good stuff handling the issues as they've cropped up
21:53:19  <terinjokes>substack: they did, as long as they got everything to this.pipeline before the first tick… i started seeing the issues (but didn't put two and two together) back in 8.0.0
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21:54:27  <substack>ogd: thanks, updated
21:55:02  <terinjokes>gulpjs/gulp#1000 and gulpjs/gulp#1001 fixes the docs, hopefully prevents more issues being opened in the future
21:55:26  <substack>this reminds me of matt's script archive
21:55:36  <substack>a recipes site with really insecure perl scripts
21:55:58  <substack>that people would just blindly put on their web server and it would sort of work
21:58:53  <terinjokes>substack: outpipe probably takes away the need for me to have a build.js in several places, i just haven't found time to migrate my npm-scripts over
22:00:27  <substack>terinjokes: still need to update watchify to use it
22:01:37  <terinjokes>[email protected] is safe on ioks?
22:01:42  <terinjokes>iojs*
22:06:53  <substack>seems to work: https://travis-ci.org/substack/minimist
22:07:11  <substack>2.7.5 was too new for 0.8
22:08:00  <terinjokes>ya, i asked to othiym23 yesterday, said stream2 slipped into a few dependencies, and they're trying to get them over to readable-stream
22:08:22  <terinjokes>but the goal was to restore 2.x support to 0.8
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22:13:02  <terinjokes>substack: you might need to relink module-deps and travis or change a config setting. doesn't seem to pickup any of the PRs
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22:15:50  <jjjohnny_>domanic: i agree with you re: mddf
22:16:24  <jjjohnny_>i;ve been sitting on an indexer for similar for a while, just hoping somebody would do it well, and lo and behold
22:16:31  <jjjohnny_>crucial
22:17:40  <domanic>jjjohnny_, we just need to promote it a bit though, not many people know about it (or even know about the problem!)
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22:18:02  <jjjohnny_>thats cuz they aint thinking about microlocal social networks!
22:18:31  <jjjohnny_>and thing that you and substack be thinking about
22:18:34  <jjjohnny_>things
22:19:08  <jjjohnny_>hyperdimensional space games
22:19:30  <jjjohnny_>hyperlocal webGL mesh networks
22:20:39  <jjjohnny_>domanic: the are are zero good open source implementations of such like database
22:21:49  <jjjohnny_>even for basic geospatial
22:21:55  <domanic>jjjohnny_, mddf is also just a better way to do maps, that I believe will dominate mainstream maps too
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22:29:42  <mikolalysenko>I think it is is more complicated than that, there are lots of details to maps. but mddf might be good for certain types of applications
22:30:32  <mikolalysenko>streaming delaunay triangulations might actually be even better at processing proximity queries
22:31:45  <mikolalysenko>http://www.cs.unc.edu/~isenburg/sd/
22:31:51  <domanic>mikolalysenko, it seems like a massive improvement on how current gis data is managed at least
22:32:17  <mikolalysenko>ok, I guess I don't know much about what people do in the gis world
22:32:35  <mikolalysenko>what is the current best practice?
22:33:16  <jjjohnny_>MySQL WHERE
22:33:24  <mikolalysenko>really?
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22:33:48  <mikolalysenko>aren't there like big software packages or something that do this stuff, like arcgis etc?
22:33:59  <mikolalysenko>and I mean google maps must do something smarter than that
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22:34:10  <jjjohnny_>yeah its a bitwise analogy to 3d space that allows mysql to make relative assertions about space
22:34:13  <mikolalysenko>it is really fast not just at proximity queries, but also route planning and other crazy stuff
22:34:38  <domanic>mikolalysenko, substack was telling me that the way the formats work you have to load them into memory... 64 gigs of ram is common on gis workstation
22:35:11  <domanic>that is what substack told me
22:35:15  <mikolalysenko>hmm
22:35:33  <mikolalysenko>yeah, that sounds bad
22:35:54  <mikolalysenko>but probably they are doing something smarter at the big companies
22:36:03  <jjjohnny_>or using mad RAM
22:36:04  <mikolalysenko>like google maps can't be doing anything like that
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22:37:07  <substack>yes the big cos have reasonable algorithms but their approaches require lots of infrastructure
22:37:45  <mikolalysenko>it is true
22:37:54  <substack>almost everybody is using http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/wms internally
22:38:02  <mikolalysenko>interesting
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22:38:41  <mikolalysenko>I figure though for things like route planning though google must have some special sauce internally
22:38:52  <substack>I would imagine so
22:38:56  <mikolalysenko>I know microsoft's bing uses some bespoke planner with cutting edge algorithms
22:39:00  <substack>but I bet it's a completely separate graph database
22:39:04  <mikolalysenko>they have published a number of papers on it
22:39:08  <substack>with just weighted edges
22:39:22  <mikolalysenko>let me see if I can dig up a link
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22:39:41  <mikolalysenko>google doesn't publish as much, but I would imagine they are also doing something more sophisticated
22:39:55  <domanic>I met the guys who make http://www.rome2rio.com/
22:40:13  <mikolalysenko>yeah, MS uses something based on lipton-style planar separators
22:40:24  <domanic>and they have a custom in-memory C# graph
22:40:42  <mikolalysenko>http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=145688
22:41:22  <substack>domanic: the 3 ways that ordinary GIS work happens at state agencies and city government is you get an extremely beefy workstation to crunch some data, you set up postgis for some queries, or you just view tiles from the WMS
22:41:28  <domanic>it can actually do pretty crazy queries: http://www.rome2rio.com/s/Great-Barrier-Island/Mount-Caroline-Livermore-Golden-Gate-National-Recreation-Area-Belvedere-Tiburon-CA
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22:42:31  <mikolalysenko>the preprocessing for the ms database has to be crazy expensive though...
22:43:44  <jjjohnny_>some things there is no getting around at least once
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22:55:16  <substack>mikolalysenko: I read the paper you linked about delaunay triangulation but didn't quite get how you can do spatial queries with it
22:55:19  * piliquit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
22:55:22  <substack>or the slide deck, rather
22:55:33  <substack>and also read some other stuff about it
22:55:55  <mikolalysenko>delaunay can answer any query you like
22:56:06  <mikolalysenko>take nearest neighbor: it is just a point location problem
22:56:15  <mikolalysenko>since the dual of delaunay = voronoi
22:56:32  <mikolalysenko>and voronoi region of a vertex = set of all points whose nearest neighbor is that vertex
22:56:47  <mikolalysenko>if you want to get all points in some convex region, just do a bfs on the delaunay triangulation
22:57:01  <mikolalysenko>or for any connected region for that matter
22:57:58  <substack>cool
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22:59:13  <mikolalysenko>also you can use delaunay to get fast point location to
22:59:16  <mikolalysenko>using jump + walk
22:59:23  <mikolalysenko>or you can use dobkin kirkpatrick to speed that up
22:59:31  <mikolalysenko>or you can use a quadtree
22:59:48  <mikolalysenko>or you can use a persistent data structure (like this module) https://github.com/mikolalysenko/point-in-region
23:00:08  <mikolalysenko>lots of way to do it
23:00:45  <mikolalysenko>or you can chop the delaunay triangulation into tiles and then brute force from there
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23:01:03  <mikolalysenko>or store some more optimized query structure in each tile
23:01:39  <substack>how would the triangulation be represented on disk?
23:02:19  <mikolalysenko>you might be able to use a streaming simplicial complex
23:02:30  <mikolalysenko>basically you just persist the output of the triangulation algorithm to disk
23:02:47  <mikolalysenko>ie read points in, run streaming dt, pipe output
23:03:16  <mikolalysenko>there are a couple of ways to do it
23:03:29  <mikolalysenko>I think this is one of the earlier papers, but the ideas generalize somewhat: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~isenburg/sm/
23:03:43  <mikolalysenko>I bet there are even more specific optimizations you could use with dts
23:04:09  <mikolalysenko>the thing with dts though that they only work in 2d
23:04:20  <mikolalysenko>if you go up to 3d or higher then you will have a bad day
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23:04:29  <mikolalysenko>since the size of a triangulation in 3d could be quadratic
23:04:44  <mikolalysenko>and in general it is O(n^floor(d/2))
23:04:54  <mikolalysenko>err O(n^ceil(d/2))
23:05:18  <mikolalysenko>so for 3 or more dimensions kdtrees are better
23:05:45  <mikolalysenko>secretly delaunay triangulations are the reason that plane geometry is much simpler
23:06:00  <mikolalysenko>since you can build tiny triangulations and use them to solve pretty much whatever problem you want
23:06:18  <mikolalysenko>in 3d this fails, because those triangulations become enormous
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