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02:24:44  <jjjohnny_>mmalecki: i guess we missed
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02:34:08  <mmalecki>jjjohnny_: yes, I just came back home, spent a ton of time at t-mobile shop cause I couldn't get data
02:34:15  <mmalecki>jjjohnny_: sorry about that
02:34:40  <jjjohnny_>mmalecki: you missed a wild one
02:35:50  <mmalecki>jjjohnny_: boo :(
02:36:05  <mmalecki>jjjohnny_: I should get your phone number next time if you have one
02:42:15  <jjjohnny_>i dont have one
02:42:27  <jjjohnny_>but you can come over to hackistan tomorrow if you wanna chill
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03:53:32  <juliangruber>mafinstosh: that' really cool! is there something for me to watch or can i contribute in any other way?
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04:27:51  <mafintosh>juliangruber: depending on whether i finish it tomorrow i'm gonna you a huge pr or just push it to a tmp repo :)
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07:45:03  <guybrush>substack, want to make sure that i understand this: keyboot can be used without hyperboot, right?
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07:46:09  <guybrush>i think i understand what hyperboot is doing (enable user to switch app-versions on their own)
07:47:29  <substack>yes
07:47:44  <substack>I'm planning to re-engineer keyboot soon though
07:47:53  <substack>just have a few other things to get done first
07:48:24  <guybrush>ah cool, i really like keyboot!
07:49:14  <substack>it's going to be even better when I do the refactor on it, with per-host ecc keys
07:49:26  <guybrush>im thinking of trying something like using keyboot to sign messages which you post on social-networks
07:49:34  <guybrush>like keybase.io just offline
07:49:58  <guybrush>then you can prove that you are @substack via webrtc
07:50:34  <guybrush>assumed that the socialnetwork has cors enabled
07:51:18  <guybrush>for multiple browsers on mulitple computers you could just post multiple signed messages on social-network
07:59:17  <substack>I'll make an omega project issue for the work that needs to be done with keyboot
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08:51:08  <substack>guybrush: https://github.com/substack/omega-projects/issues/8
08:56:43  <guybrush>thanks for the writeup and your thoughts!
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08:59:39  <substack>I have a new experimental idea for how keyboot can be rebooted
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09:04:36  <substack>each request sent by a domain can be granted without any user intervention, but only the user's direct action will link the per-host keys to a public persona
09:04:57  <substack>so users can post anonymously first, by default
09:05:22  <substack>and then later opt into having those messages show up as associated with a user account with more history
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09:11:27  <substack>guybrush: addendum added on ease of use
09:16:40  <guybrush>i think its not only about how hard it is to use but also how hard it is to understand
09:16:59  <guybrush>a password for this and a password for that is easy to understand
09:18:13  <guybrush>but i aggree when the whole auth-system is basically hidden behind some userinterface its way easier to not have to remember passwords
09:18:26  <substack>I don't think many people know what happens when you "sign in with facebook"
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09:19:04  <substack>only that it appears that you've signed in like with a username and password but instead you clicked a button
09:19:17  <guybrush>but my grandmother knows the concept of a password (she has no interest in computers at all)
09:20:46  <guybrush>but once i start explaining encryption and how facebook/google/etc track your whole internet-surfing she just stops listening :D
09:21:20  <substack>I think the hardest problem about all of this will be to figure out how to get the basic economic needs of the people building this software met
09:21:21  <guybrush>even my parents argue again and again that they dont have to hide anything
09:21:52  <substack>you don't have to wear clothes either
09:22:20  <guybrush>well its just a stupid discussion anyway
09:22:58  <guybrush>if you dont care about your rights the problem is not just about understanding technology
09:23:21  <substack>that's true too
09:23:43  <substack>which is why for this technology to win it must provide other benefits that the centralized platforms can't provide
09:24:36  <guybrush>oh and yes i think economic stuff is a huge pain in the ass
09:24:57  <guybrush>basically everyone has to think centralized in order to feed his kids and pay rent
09:25:48  <substack>because centralized technologies are an easy way to exert leverage over users so that they or somebody else pays
09:26:39  <substack>whether that customer is a user (in probably the best case), an advertiser, an acquiring company, or a vc
09:27:28  <substack>"if you're not paying for something, you're the product" applies here
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09:27:48  <guybrush>mh yes but i think of it not only in a bad way
09:28:35  <guybrush>those companies pay money to their employees, so they can live of it
09:28:48  <guybrush>i mean everybody has to make money of something
09:29:53  <substack>because being a human is not sufficient to partake in the bounty of human civilization
09:30:10  <guybrush>its just a crazy fucked up society haha :D we should strive to get into the startrek-era :)
09:30:32  <substack>yes, but what can be done in the short to medium term I wonder?
09:31:03  <substack>longer terms, replicators and the properties of information networks will apply and there will be extreme abundance
09:31:32  <substack>at least abundance adequate to meet basic human needs
09:31:35  <substack>of course, we already have that
09:31:41  <guybrush>thats exactly how i think about it
09:31:45  <guybrush>but it will take time for sure
09:31:48  <substack>and the problem remains
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09:33:15  <guybrush>one argument i get thrown at me all the time when i discuss those things outside of the internet is that karl marx already tried to make this happen and it did not work
09:35:06  <guybrush>there is a saying that when you are young you are a communist/socialist/humanist and when you grow older you will understand that it just cant work and the only possible way is capitalism
09:35:10  <substack>marxism doesn't tackle head-on the problem of work
09:35:22  <substack>it doesn't see work as a problem, it's not critical enough
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09:36:45  <substack>capitalism isn't even very old
09:38:06  <substack>and it's largely created by the active role of government in establishing entities for multi-party action such as corporations of various kinds
09:39:32  <guybrush>in europe (like germany but even more in austria i think) we have lots of liberal parties and we think in general more critical about our gov (i think)
09:39:55  <guybrush>but still everyone thinks (and even knows) capitalism is the only way
09:39:56  <substack>and the ability to hold property governed by a hierarchical decision-making structure
09:42:05  <substack>a basic income for all and active price controls on goods directly relating to human needs (shelter, food) might be enough of a reform to keep the whole thing together for a time
09:42:18  <guybrush>well its hard problem and im not even close to understand it at least to an extent that i can have a real opinion somehow
09:43:06  <guybrush>so of course i think of ways how to get money in long term
09:43:09  <guybrush>like everyone
09:43:25  <guybrush>because you have to
09:43:58  <substack>because nobody is actually free
09:44:51  <guybrush>but we are more free than 500 years ago :D
09:45:38  <substack>there are a lot of ways to look at that
09:47:33  <guybrush>feudalism->capitalism->?
09:48:20  <guybrush>another thing is that its a completely different story depending on where you are living on earth
09:49:34  <guybrush>maybe not so much diff between us and eu but even in russia china etc i think its really different, not to speak of africa etc
09:51:14  <guybrush>anyway :DD i will try to use keyboot for my p2p game now!
09:51:20  <guybrush>first things first haha
10:03:30  <substack>so much work to do!
10:03:44  <guybrush>and so little time!
10:04:10  <substack>especially with distractions like paid gigs and whatever noise
10:04:45  <substack>distractions that are required to be a living human that is allowed to continue to exist
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10:15:38  <ahdinosaur>> substack: I think the hardest problem about all of this will be to figure out how to get the basic economic needs of the people building this software met
10:15:42  <ahdinosaur>++
10:16:36  <substack>ahdinosaur: it's also really hard to ignore the basic needs of everybody else too :/
10:17:40  <ahdinosaur>true, but gotta start somewhere and maybe our mad science will help
10:18:26  <substack>tools that help people to meet basic economic needs could be a way to do this
10:18:42  <ahdinosaur>mhm
10:19:06  <substack>but more often those supply sources are monopolized or tightly regulated
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10:19:10  <substack>like housing, food
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10:19:27  <substack>medicine in some places without universal access
10:22:20  <ahdinosaur>perhaps decentralized and open supply chains can out-compete the current ones. we can at least focus on the ones that we have some control over, like food, shelter, transportation, electricity, internet, ...
10:23:12  <ahdinosaur>even just collectivizing around existing supply sources would help
10:28:04  <ahdinosaur>i'm also keen on the Enspiral method of social change: http://www.enspiral.com; i wonder if it could be applied to #stackvm, us organizing together economically so we can do more mad science.
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16:53:05  <jjjohnny_>marxist communism wants the government to communist
16:53:09  <jjjohnny_>that is why it fails
16:53:12  <jjjohnny_>cuz government
16:53:49  <jjjohnny_>anarchy-syndicates go directly to the work
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17:13:09  <jjjohnny_>substack: when i try "npm run release -- -v 1.0.0. -m 'keyboot ex app'" i get an error npm looking for node_modules/release o_o
17:13:52  <jjjohnny_>substack: i removed the ghost flags --
17:15:36  <jjjohnny_>npm scipts is not liking my flags
17:15:41  <jjjohnny_>or ir is liking them too much
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17:37:28  <jjjohnny_>substack: the solution to finding support for open source developers is, I think, growing a wider audience of people who value it, beyond developers
17:39:03  <jjjohnny_>we're already into the next wave of OSS
17:42:35  <jjjohnny_>we personally, or as groups, need to put a sail up and catch some of that wind
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17:57:54  <jjjohnny_>#gangster
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18:01:14  <pfraze_>jjjohnny_: lets say we go post-SaaS
18:02:54  <pfraze_>so subscription models are out
18:03:29  <pfraze_>how would you support devs?
18:06:34  <jjjohnny_>daas?
18:07:57  <jjjohnny_>i dont see saas going out completely
18:08:32  <jjjohnny_>the concepts that we grow weary of inside the bubble haven't spread to the general public yet
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18:10:29  <jjjohnny_>really, us open source devs justs need to be a lil more greedy
18:10:47  <jjjohnny_>we ned to eat them big box startups lunch
18:10:56  <jjjohnny_>and don't be mad if we charge for it
18:12:20  <pfraze_>hmm, yeah
18:12:50  <jjjohnny_>its hard tho, cuz we don't have big PR budgets. but soon the flood will come.
18:13:00  <jjjohnny_>and drown the PR
18:14:20  <jjjohnny_>but someday you have to come to terms with the fact that you unless you trade money in the exchange, they general public user aint buying it
18:14:34  <jjjohnny_>its sad, but true
18:14:55  <jjjohnny_>same goes for ideas, art, culture, dietary health, mental health...
18:15:49  <pfraze_>yeah
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18:16:24  <jjjohnny_>in some ways it is almost innocent
18:17:45  <jjjohnny_>it's an abstraction for time, in a comnsumer capiatlist dominant culture
18:18:00  <jjjohnny_>for time and attention
18:18:05  <jjjohnny_>money is
18:19:01  <jjjohnny_>it's dirty tho, and we know it sux in other ways. but we are merely fish in this sea, and that dominant culture is the water
18:19:27  <jjjohnny_>that is why I have always been about the techno media, the creative software
18:19:49  <jjjohnny_>cuz i believe it is a cultural movement we need, not an econimic or political one
18:20:12  <jjjohnny_>it is ideas that will set people free, make them question the day, not some app
18:21:30  <jjjohnny_>so lets strapon and sell the public their own deliverance!
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18:25:19  <jjjohnny_>also, the whole net aint going DEX. there will always be a need for extrenalized computer resources, even if they are only tiny signaling servers and backups. there is no reason why we, providing that next gen software, can't also provide the external resource APIs and such, for money
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18:54:57  <pfraze_>jjjohnny_: that's true, so compare that to the advertising business in broadcast media
18:55:33  <pfraze_>the broadcasters pay for content so they can sell adspace
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18:56:14  <pfraze_>in the case of computing resources, say users pay a subscription to be hosted, would there be an analogue of hosters then paying content producers?
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18:58:45  <pfraze_>or, if there's not an indirect market, would it be feasible to expect people to pay directly for content? (so far it doesnt seem to be)
18:59:16  <pfraze_>in software that seems to be the exception - sublime text comes to mind
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19:25:19  <ogd>mafintosh: https://github.com/maxogden/taco/tree/v2#components
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