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07:38:17  <mafintosh>substack: have you worked with any of the low level container apis on linux? chroot, cgroups etc
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12:59:02  <substack>mafintosh: ages ago
12:59:36  <substack>well now and then I'll make a chroot from a livecd or whatever
12:59:44  <substack>for system recovery
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13:19:06  <wao>w00h https://coinado.io/
13:19:08  <wao>feross: ^
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13:31:02  <mikolalysenko>wonder how long coinado will stick around before authorities shut it down
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13:38:37  <wao>:)
13:38:49  <wao>oh let publish source code, I'm willing to host it :)
13:39:04  <wao>I had similiar idea, there are few cloud torrenting services out there
13:39:15  <wao>viva la torrent, we are at just begging of torrents :)
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15:13:27  <kumavis>hey have you guys heard of moose-team's 'friends' project?? <slowpoke emoji>
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15:35:13  <substack>kumavis: yep!
15:35:18  <substack>couldn't get it working easily on linux though
15:35:24  <kumavis>oh bummer
15:35:29  <kumavis>electron issues?
15:35:33  <substack>yes
15:36:09  <kumavis>theres some notes in the build section https://github.com/moose-team/friends#building
15:36:16  <kumavis>not sure if they've changed since your last attempt
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16:25:11  <ehd>anyone releasing/announcing something at DTN?
16:26:36  <ehd>i'll be wearing a t-shirt that has the qr code of its design's ipfs hash on it. using a qr code to channel the hate towards making people want to solve the distributed naming problem :p
16:33:06  <kumavis>for 'friends' app do you need to do something special to see people online? getting 0 peers, as is my friend
16:40:54  <ogd>kumavis: what kind of wifi are you on
16:41:13  <kumavis>good?
16:41:43  <ogd>kumavis: haha
16:41:45  <kumavis>ogd what kind of answer are you looking for
16:41:54  <ogd>kumavis: what's your nat situation
16:42:30  <ogd>kumavis: eg are on a corporate network or tethered over 3G? or on a home router connected to a public ip
16:42:34  <kumavis>tbh not that sure... i have a router running the original firmware in the other room
16:42:35  <ogd>behind single layer nat
16:42:37  <kumavis>at home
16:43:14  <kumavis>so no crazy proxies or tethering or router daisy chaining or anything
16:43:21  <ogd>kumavis: ah ok cool should be fine. we need better connection debug info in friends
16:43:29  <kumavis>other than the standard craziness of the internet infrastructure
16:44:33  <ogd>kumavis: do you wanna try adding some connection debug logging in? maybe write to the require('app').getPath('userData') folder from inside the electron app?
16:45:10  <kumavis>ogd sounds like a good place to start poking through the code
16:45:12  <ogd>kumavis: there are events on simple peer you can use. or maybe just add Require('debug') to simple-peer, that would be handy
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16:53:08  <kumavis>other webrtc stuff is working, i just tried talky.io with null_radix
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17:21:00  <substack>mafintosh: "industry stream of thought leader"
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20:21:48  <ovef>what is the appropriate http header field to return a created entity id?
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21:01:07  <jjjohnny>https://instant.io/#99d4475b40b8595962a64126bffa5382f416f82d
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22:34:12  <feross>jjjohnny: you still seeding? download's not starting for me
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22:36:10  <feross>wao, mikolalysenko: i posted my thoughts about that service here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9568939
22:36:22  <guybrush>kumavis i think talky.io runs a turn-server so maybe it works for you only because of that
22:36:43  <kumavis>guybrush: ah interesting --- how is friends finding peers?
22:36:51  <feross>https://instant.io/#c6642b73cf82dc52b5d538fabfdf9c8e3d9e850f
22:37:11  <mikolalysenko>feross: agree, and likewise I'm not much impressed by coinado
22:37:11  <feross>kumavis: friends finds peers using a signalhub instance
22:37:12  <guybrush>kumavis, friends works with mafintosh/signalhub so just GET/POST
22:37:23  <kumavis>oh interesting
22:37:34  <guybrush>kumavis, but then the connection between peers is just webrtc (without TURN)
22:37:44  <kumavis>instant.io is also using TURN i assume?
22:37:48  <guybrush>turn is used to relay traffic if webrtc doesnt work
22:37:54  <guybrush>hmm maybe im not sure
22:38:03  <kumavis>b/c im streaming that last link ^
22:38:32  <feross>kumavis: yeah, instant.io currently uses turn since it makes the demo work better, but if lots of ppl start using it that will get costly
22:38:44  <kumavis>gotcha
22:38:59  <feross>kumavis: but if lots of people are using it, then it's less important that 100% of connections work. if only 60% work, then most downloads will still work fine
22:39:06  <feross>if you can't connect to one peer, just try another
22:39:24  <feross>well, it already tries to connect to a bunch at the same time, but you get what i mean
22:39:28  <guybrush>feross, you run your own turn or do you use some service or free servers?
22:40:46  <feross>guybrush: i just pay twilio to run it https://www.twilio.com/stun-turn
22:40:53  <guybrush>cool thanks
22:40:55  <feross>so far it's cost like $0.25
22:43:28  <guybrush>hey feross can i ask you about how you would distribute a list of items that only live for a short time? :p
22:43:40  <guybrush>somehow i feel that a merkle dag is not the right thing
22:44:01  <guybrush>specifically i want to distribute a list of short-lived rooms (lobbies)
22:44:27  <guybrush>like every peer needs to see which lobby is currently open
22:45:01  <guybrush>would i just send the list from the server? (which is needed to do signaling anyway)
22:45:53  <feross>guybrush: that's the standard approach
22:46:13  <feross>guybrush: but substack has been working on some interesting stuff that might make that part decentralizable
22:46:27  <guybrush>yeah im looking into his wikidb-stuff
22:46:35  <feross>guybrush: a webrtc dht would solve this issue
22:46:43  <guybrush>thanks!
22:47:07  <guybrush>basically i want to learn the things by implementing something, just reading doesnt do it
22:47:45  <guybrush>implementing something that is distributed is very different from server/client-model
22:47:58  <guybrush>in every aspect
22:49:09  <jjjohnny>feross: says i am
22:49:22  <feross>nyan! https://instant.io/#3eed633deb5786cb9f8d9e3864dc9f21712da76c
22:50:50  <guybrush>it stopped downloading
22:50:57  <guybrush>after .7% :D
22:52:03  <feross>guybrush: yikes there's an exception in my console ;)
22:52:11  <guybrush>now it works fine
22:52:23  <feross>cool!
22:52:59  <jjjohnny>https://instant.io/#99d4475b40b8595962a64126bffa5382f416f82d
22:53:03  <jjjohnny>seeding again
22:53:38  <jjjohnny>uploadn
22:53:51  <feross>jjjohnny: nice, im downloading
22:54:08  <jjjohnny>had 2 peers, 1 dropped
22:54:32  <guybrush>i dled and it stopped after some progress
22:54:37  <guybrush>now it works again
22:54:40  <jjjohnny>2 again
22:55:24  <jjjohnny>250-300 kB/s up
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23:35:45  <kumavis>guybrush: ordered or unordered list
23:36:05  <guybrush>hmmm?
23:36:27  <kumavis>> distribute a list of items that only live for a short time?
23:36:32  <guybrush>unordered
23:36:50  <guybrush>i think i will go with a merkle-dag (just use mafintosh/hyperlog :p)
23:37:11  <guybrush>and somehow implement that items can be deleted or something
23:37:33  <kumavis>deletion is sometimes done via a tombstone list
23:38:03  <guybrush>cant find any usefull link with google for tombstone
23:38:07  <kumavis>which is an append-only unordered list
23:38:19  <kumavis>just says 'this item was removed'
23:38:27  <guybrush>ah ok
23:38:56  <kumavis>unordered removable list = append-only unordered list - append-only unordered tombstone list
23:39:19  <guybrush>yeah i need a way to have items distributed which contain data that gets updated and after some time the items get deleted
23:40:09  <kumavis>merkledag might be overkill but would give you more flexibilty
23:40:11  <guybrush>so what im currently thinking of is to use hyperlog (merkle-dag) and patch it so peers can tell each other that an item (hash) has been deleted
23:40:23  <guybrush>exactly what i thought
23:40:53  <guybrush>but i think it would take long time for me to implement a replication-schema for this somehow
23:40:58  <guybrush>but im not sure
23:41:14  <guybrush>i could just let the peers gossip updates i guess?
23:41:26  <guybrush>that is, no merkle dag or anthing like that
23:41:33  <guybrush>just items with some ID
23:41:57  <guybrush>and peers just tell each other the latest state
23:42:23  <guybrush>but then how do i know if my state is older than the state another peer tells me
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23:42:37  <guybrush>so just use the merkle-dag haha :p
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23:43:14  <guybrush>or maybe look more into scuttlebutt
23:43:45  <guybrush>but i think its pretty much the same thing, i.e. hashes that point to parent-hashes
23:43:52  <guybrush>"parent"
23:44:35  <guybrush>but im really not sure at all how exactly it works, theres also sequences and timestamps
23:46:26  <guybrush>also i think maybe there is another way i could distribute items easily
23:46:34  <guybrush>just make 1 peer the owner of the item
23:46:53  <guybrush>only this peer publishes updates (including sequence-numbers)
23:47:20  <guybrush>maybe this would be the easiest way
23:48:03  <guybrush>and then let the updates propagate through the network
23:48:11  <guybrush>signed by that one peer
23:48:40  <guybrush>then again im not sure how that propagation would work exactly
23:48:52  <guybrush>just randomly send updates between peers? :D
23:49:09  <guybrush>so that eventually every peer gets it