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17:59:02  <TabAtkins>Strong agree.
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21:48:37  <devsnek>wasn't there a proposal about scoped objects or like Symbol.cleanup and whatnot at some point
21:50:38  <bradleymeck>you mean objects that appear diff on scope they are accessed in?
21:50:48  * bradleymeckdigs about
21:51:54  <devsnek>bradleymeck: no like
21:52:16  <devsnek>adding a protocol like Symbol.cleanup or something that gets called when an object goes out of scope
21:52:34  <devsnek>it was like `use x = {}` or something
21:52:35  <bradleymeck>WeakRefs seem to fill that.
21:52:57  <devsnek>i think we talked at the july meeting about the syntax of the proposal too
21:52:58  <bradleymeck>I don't think RAII style destructors have been talked about in a long time
21:53:01  <devsnek>but i can't find anything about it
21:53:10  <devsnek>so many i'm crazy
21:53:50  <bradleymeck>oh, you mean https://github.com/tc39/proposal-using-statement#readme ?
21:54:04  <devsnek>aha yes!
21:55:16  <bradleymeck>there was one on scopes where mutations are visible on objects only within specific scopes, but i can't find it
21:55:39  <devsnek>that sounds hecky and confusing
21:55:41  <bradleymeck>so you could mutate Array.prototype etc. in a specialized scope and it would act diff from other scopes
21:56:13  <devsnek>sounds scary
21:58:30  <bradleymeck>anything that makes values act diff according to call site is scary to me
21:59:43  * devsnekuses strict
22:09:04  <TabAtkins>I really really want a using statement. I use Python's `with` a lot and would love to use it more.
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22:10:41  <devsnek>i have concern about the case of creating something that expects to be cleaned up without using `using`
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22:34:28  <TabAtkins>You mean, an object designed without thought for `using`?
22:35:09  <TabAtkins>You can use adapters for that, like Python's `closing()` that just wraps the object and calls `.close()` on it for you.
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23:13:06  <bradleymeck>improvise, adapt, OOM
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23:15:33  <devsnek>lmao bradley
23:16:24  <bradleymeck>i think forcing people to use adapters is fine, we have tons of them already for `await`, 🤷
23:16:48  <bradleymeck>we just need to be mindful of what people can do w/ the protocol
23:16:59  <devsnek>i was kinda talking about the opposite
23:17:02  <bradleymeck>i definitely use `await` differently from Promises
23:17:11  <devsnek>an object designed to be used with the syntax, that isn't handled by it
23:17:42  <bradleymeck>devsnek: well any misuse is not something we can control
23:18:18  <devsnek>usually you have to explicitly misuse
23:18:30  <devsnek>like calling x[Symbol.iterator]()
23:18:37  <bradleymeck>the goal is to design stuff so that it isn't trivial to misuse, or in cases that it isn't possible, to do what we can for UX to encourage it to be simple to use
23:18:37  <devsnek>you know what you're signing up for
23:18:56  <devsnek>but random objects with a cleanup symbol seems iffy
23:19:52  <bradleymeck>what do you mean, how do they get the cleanup symbol accidentally?
23:20:16  <bradleymeck>plenty of things could want non-runtime based cleanup logic, timers etc. could be wrapped by other objects for example
23:20:40  <devsnek>just calling things that expect to be cleaned up without any indication
23:21:02  <devsnek>as soon as you allow explicit resource stuff everything has to subscribe to a flow :(
23:23:19  <bradleymeck>resource stuff has to be cleaned up anyway, the most common way to cleanup seems fine to carve out
23:24:55  <devsnek>i was messing with it in engine262 (with the syntax `ConstructorName identifierName()` as a statement, couldn't remember what the original proposal was) and this was the first thing that popped out to me
23:26:32  <bradleymeck>my main concern with `using` is when things get passed outside the `using` scope
23:27:16  <bradleymeck>it would be nice if `using` both generated the disposable and consumed it without directly leaking the reference. Symbol.iterator kind of does this
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