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00:40:28  <xaxxon>what's the "right way" to wrap an context and a global object template into a class? I'm fighting with handlescopes and don't completely understand when things are valid vs invalid
00:41:07  <xaxxon>can I just create a HandleScope as the first thing in my main() and everything will use that forever? (not saying that's the best idea but conceptually?)
00:41:51  <xaxxon>when escapable handle scope says it will move your handle to the containing scope, would that refer to the "main" handlescope I metnioned above?
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01:52:03  <xaxxon>oh.. persistent/global
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02:37:59  <xaxxon>having a lot of trouble passing a Script object out of a function and then using it later... Persistent gives compiler errors and Global isn't right because I need to pass it in and out of functions on a regular basis and don't want to throw ownership around with it
02:44:07  <xaxxon>and so much of the docs on persistent are out of date..
02:48:02  <xaxxon>maybe it's this copyable trait thing
03:05:26  <xaxxon>man... it's always someting wrong and I think it's mostly related to me not undersatnding the scope of different handle types
03:18:44  <xaxxon>globals are what used to be called uniquepersistent right?
03:18:54  <xaxxon>looks like there's a typedef somewhere
03:21:18  <xaxxon>can't get past this isolate native context being null...
03:52:02  <xaxxon>maybe I Forgot a contextscope
03:53:53  <xaxxon>well, that was at least part of it.. now chances are like 6 different things I tried would have worked if I had had a context scope
03:54:01  <xaxxon>fuck the lack of state checking in v8...
03:54:04  <xaxxon>something wrong? just crash
04:06:36  <xaxxon>yeah, the scopes were my whole problem... missing context scope at compile time and then isolate scope at runtime
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13:29:44  <trungl-bot`>Tree closed by [email protected]: closed (maintenance)
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14:08:58  <trungl-bot`>Tree opened by [email protected]: open
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14:21:13  <xaxxon>after I've created a context, if I want to set a javascript variable to a specific value from c++, how do I do it? I thought it looked at the global template at runtime, but data suggests it only looks at your objecttemplate during context creation and never again
14:21:34  <xaxxon>as in if I ->Set it before I create the context, it's seen, but if I do it after, it's not.
14:21:45  <caitp>uh
14:22:05  <caitp>have you entered the context? j/w
14:22:19  <xaxxon>I don't know what that means...
14:22:38  <xaxxon>I understand what my code does I just don't know exactly what that phrase refers to
14:22:45  <xaxxon>does that mean in a context scope?
14:23:06  <caitp>yes
14:23:16  <caitp>I'm not sure if that's necessary, though
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14:24:31  <xaxxon>well, if I create ObjTemp, create context(ObjTemp), objTEmp->set(...) the set isn't seen. if I create ObjTemp, , objTEmp->set(...) , create context(ObjTemp) it IS seen. I don't think I've tried doing the ->Set while in a context scope
14:24:57  <xaxxon>caitp, so it is supposed to look back at the global object template?
14:25:01  <xaxxon>afayk?
14:25:31  <caitp>I don't use the API a whole lot, mostly work on the internal side of things, but maybe if you post some code I could piece it together =)
14:25:40  <xaxxon>ok
14:25:54  <caitp>and your v8 version would help, too
14:25:58  <xaxxon>4.9
14:26:11  <xaxxon>that's latest release, right?
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14:31:48  <xaxxon>https://gist.github.com/xaxxon/bffe70dc93abca22ead3
14:32:04  <xaxxon>There's a bunch of code because I don't know what's important... but it's fairly straight forward I hope
14:32:57  <xaxxon>any pointers on use of different handle types and scopes would be great too... I just toss stuff in places until it compiles :-\
14:33:11  <xaxxon>caitp, thank you
14:33:21  <caitp>hang on a sec, booking a flight
14:33:27  <xaxxon>yeah, no worries!
14:33:31  <xaxxon>coming to seattle?
14:33:41  <xaxxon>I'll buy you beers
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14:59:38  <caitp>neh, just SF
14:59:45  <caitp>alright, lets see
15:05:08  <xaxxon>whatever we find out I'll write up on stack overflow or somewhere so other people can find it, too
15:09:19  <xaxxon>also I just double checked v8-version.h. I'm on
15:22:19  <caitp>in d8, the context is created differently
15:22:30  <caitp>I see that you're trying to create it as a CopyablePersistent, but...
15:22:42  <caitp>that looks like the only difference that I can see
15:22:44  <xaxxon>I just couldn't figure out how to get it out of the function
15:23:06  <xaxxon>I don't understand the whole local/persistent/global/external...
15:23:19  <caitp>yeah, it's admittedly confusing
15:23:21  <xaxxon>I store the values in a class for use spanning the different methods
15:23:55  <xaxxon>you can't just ship a Local out of it's HandleScope, right? cuz it gets cleaned up when the stack gets cleaned up, right?
15:24:39  <xaxxon>and since this wrapper object gets shipped around, there's no clear containing handlescope to use an escapablehandlescope for (though the docs on that are lacking)
15:25:11  <xaxxon>so it seemed like a persistent was the right thing... that type is just a typedef: template <class T> using CopyablePersistent = v8::Persistent<T, v8::CopyablePersistentTraits<T>>;
15:25:34  <xaxxon>without the CopyablePersistentTraits I was getting errors creating persistent v8::Script objects
15:25:55  <xaxxon>but.. I don't know what that does, I just read somewhere to try it... I think I could not use that on the context
15:27:36  <xaxxon>if I get rid of the copyable bit, I get this error message: /users/xaxxon/v8/include/v8.h:680:5: error: assigning to 'v8::Object *volatile' from incompatible type 'v8::Primitive *'
15:27:52  <xaxxon>and I don't know what that means
15:29:02  <xaxxon> v8::Persistent<v8::Context> get_context(){return this->context;}
15:29:23  <xaxxon>that's the line that causes the error - if I remove the copyable trait..
15:30:02  <caitp>by default, they're non-copyable, eg no assignment operator or copyconstructor
15:30:17  <caitp>it's just code designed to produce a compiler error if you usei t
15:30:23  <xaxxon>oh ok
15:31:30  <xaxxon>caitp, I am having a lot of time going from the simple examples on the "v8 embedder's guide" to actual real-world stuff where it's not all just one function with a constant stack shared amongst all the calls
15:31:38  <caitp>for what it's worth, Chromium creates a Local<v8::Context> using v8::Context::New()
15:31:42  <caitp>just like d8
15:31:48  <xaxxon>caitp, I've been trying to reference process.cc as well
15:31:51  <caitp>the CopyablePersristent approach might be the wrong strategy
15:32:29  <caitp>I think the template needs to be persistent, but not the actual context
15:32:37  <xaxxon>I am doing that too: Local<v8::Context> using v8::Context::New()
15:33:08  <caitp>ah so you are
15:33:08  <xaxxon> auto local_context = v8::Context::New(this->isolate, NULL, ot);
15:34:07  <xaxxon>are persistent and global similar to a "normal pointer" and a std::unique_ptr?
15:34:54  <xaxxon>also I updated that gist with the class definition..
15:35:29  <xaxxon>the context member when I copy/pasted was back to a "normal" persistent, but that doesn't compile
15:36:14  <caitp>it probably doesn't need to be persistent, you just need to keep it alive throughout the lifetime of your program
15:36:19  <caitp>or of your use of it
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15:37:34  <xaxxon>ok, so when you create a Local<..> that means it's tied to the stack lifetime of the handlescope that exists when you create the Local right? so if you want to keep it around past then, how are you supposed to do it? I thought that was what persistent and global were for..
15:37:50  <caitp>https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/third_party/WebKit/Source/bindings/core/v8/ScriptState.h seems to be the main context holder for chromium, which oilpan presumably gets rid of when finished with it
15:37:59  <xaxxon>checking
15:41:46  <xaxxon>ok, so in that file you linked, ScriptState has a member: v8::Local<v8::Context> m_context;
15:42:21  <xaxxon>I didn't think that was legal.. because I thought a local had to exist within a handlescope
15:45:36  <caitp>whether that's the actual issue you're running into or not, I'm not sure =)
15:45:47  <caitp>but you might want to give it a try and see
15:46:25  <caitp>d8.cc is probably the simplest embedder reference you can look at, though
15:47:01  <xaxxon>ok. I'll take a look at it. Thank you for your help
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16:25:31  <bradleymeck>what is holding up the Module parser? WhatWG and Node seem to be waiting on V8, V8 seems to be waiting on them
16:26:04  <caitp>I didn't get the impression that the whatwg was waiting on v8
16:26:44  <caitp>can you file bugs on deficiencies you see in the module parsing that has been implemented so far?
16:27:42  <caitp>this quarter, I don't think modules was marked as a priority, since the web-side spec is still in progress
16:27:57  <caitp>but, it would be good to have some things to work towards
16:30:08  <bradleymeck>caitp: our concern is if it doesn't get in by march it won't get into Node's Oct LTS
16:30:14  <bradleymeck>end of march*
16:30:24  <bradleymeck>i'll try and poke around with it
16:30:32  <caitp>parsing is there --- the question is what parts of it are inadequate
16:30:41  <caitp>i'm sure there are things missing, just not sure what
16:30:56  <bradleymeck>will read and report back, though that issue is pretty dead
16:31:39  <caitp>aklein would know better than me how complete the parsing side of it is
16:32:00  <caitp>I don't think there are any API hooks yet, could be wrong there too
16:34:45  <bradleymeck>there is CompileModule, but it doesn't seem to attach a ModuleRecord to v8::Script so no loader could work w/ it yet.
16:35:04  <bradleymeck>see ParseModule in ecma spec
16:35:36  <caitp>well
16:35:58  <caitp>just my opinion, but it seems a bit unlikely to make it in the short term
16:36:08  <bradleymeck>fair enough
16:36:18  <caitp>especially since anything released by march would be fairly new and likely buggy
16:36:52  <caitp>do file bugs though
16:39:44  <bradleymeck>node has a much slower uptake of v8, even if things are not 100% spec they still land in both browser and node
16:40:32  <bradleymeck>i'll post feedback but are you just looking for battle testing? the spec is pretty clear about the data structures that need to be exported
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16:41:29  <caitp>yeah, the main thing is
16:41:39  <caitp>chrome is still (for better or worse) the primary consumer of v8
16:42:06  <caitp>and without a real story for the browser side, it might be hard to justify going full throttle on the module stuff
16:42:40  <bradleymeck>just trying to find ways to speed things up. had trouble every time I try to get patches in since chrome blocks them from landing until devtools supports stuff
16:42:57  <caitp>yeah, I know
16:43:00  <bradleymeck>just makes me apathetic to writing my new stuff
16:43:38  <bradleymeck>cause even if node ppl patch up the module loader it won't land
16:43:43  <bradleymeck>module parser*
16:44:07  <caitp>if you were to send an intent to implement thread, for example, you could definitely say that there are major public signals from at least JSC
16:44:35  <caitp>which isn't nothin
16:44:53  <bradleymeck>mmm, is there a guide on doing that? also node is pretty ignored I thought in terms of use case?
16:45:33  <caitp>http://www.chromium.org/blink#launch-process
16:45:42  <caitp>v8 has a similar process, too
16:51:13  <bradleymeck>so if node had a list of intent to implements it would help?
16:51:26  <bradleymeck>i'll talk to the foundation about that then
16:51:47  <xaxxon>caitp, https://gist.github.com/xaxxon/15f602eb6f6a135a97e5 <== simplest program I know how to write that shows the problem.
16:52:44  <caitp>bradleymeck: I just meant, you could send that to v8-dev or comment on the existing thread (I'm pretty sure there is one)
16:53:00  <caitp>just kind of get the ball moving a little
16:53:44  <bradleymeck>can do in next day or so
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16:58:44  <bnoordhuis>xaxxon: does that code actually compile? i don't think there is an overload for template->Set() that accepts a const char* as the key
16:59:01  <xaxxon>yeah, it works
16:59:15  <xaxxon>http://v8.paulfryzel.com/docs/master/classv8_1_1_template.html
16:59:17  <xaxxon>second from the top
16:59:33  <xaxxon>it gives the output I showed in the gist
17:00:22  <bnoordhuis>huh, guess that's new
17:00:24  <xaxxon>I was pleasantly surprised when I found that one :)
17:00:49  <xaxxon>i(isolate) really(isolate) get(isolate) sick(isolate) of(isolate) typing(isolate) though(isolate)
17:00:58  <xaxxon>*isolate(isolate)
17:01:40  <bnoordhuis>xaxxon: what's your gist trying to accomplish? make bar a global?
17:02:11  <xaxxon>bnoordhuis, what I actually want to do is set a variable to a value after the context has been created
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17:02:57  <bnoordhuis>what's stopping you? you can get the global with context->Global()
17:03:15  <xaxxon>I didn't know about that. looking
17:04:46  <xaxxon>bnoordhuis, is the template used for anything after the context is created? (signs point to no, but I thought I read somewhere that it was used for lookups)
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17:04:57  <xaxxon>by "template" I mean the one you pass to context when you create it
17:05:34  <bnoordhuis>xaxxon: no, it's not used
17:05:48  <xaxxon>ok, well that explains the behavior then :)
17:05:57  <bnoordhuis>you'd make a template if you expect to create many contexts with the same configuration
17:07:19  <xaxxon>ok, that makes sense.
17:13:43  <xaxxon>bnoordhuis, neat, that worked :) Thank you
17:14:01  <xaxxon>but no nice const char * Set() method
17:14:41  <bnoordhuis>indeed. rather incongruent that Template::Set() has one
17:16:42  <xaxxon>+5 points for incongruent. I'd have gone with something much more boring
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18:08:49  <caitp>oh, is that why you were having issues? trying to Get the property from the context itself?
18:08:52  <caitp>or what
18:11:46  <caitp>x/y problems are confusing
18:14:15  <caitp>ok i think i understand the isuse
18:14:19  <caitp>i get it now
18:14:41  <caitp>you set the property on the template after creating the context, expecting that to apply to the context's global object
18:14:53  <caitp>but it doesn't work that way, so that doesn't happen
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20:43:42  <aklein>bradleymeck: Module work is definitely a priority _this year_ for us, but caitp is right that work on implementation has been tactically delayed due to the lack of a good story on the browser side
20:43:51  <aklein>though to be fair there's been plenty of uncertainty on the Node side as well
20:44:19  <bradleymeck>aklein: we are drafting intent to impl in PMs right now
20:44:51  <aklein>"PMs"?
20:44:54  <bradleymeck>though we can throw some effort to helping v8, just a bit tired I think from being badgered for past few days. was a bit grumpy in scrollback
20:44:58  <bradleymeck>aklein: private messages
20:46:28  <bradleymeck>writing down our semantics before we go and try out the parser in that issue to see what work we need to move forward
20:46:55  <caitp>I don't think it's unreasonable to get the tc39-side bits in place behind a flag, but I just don't think that's something that's going to happen this quarter unless a volunteer does it
20:47:14  <caitp>html and node loaders are probably a different story
20:47:34  <aklein>there's not much more to do in v8 without a loader story
20:48:00  <bradleymeck>aklein: the intent is to have it mostly just do parsing and Loader stay outside of v8
20:48:07  <bradleymeck>from Node's perspective
20:48:16  <caitp>so, I think the parsing side has basically been done
20:48:25  <aklein>bradleymeck: I'd be interested in hearing a strawman of what the API for that would look like
20:48:39  <aklein>CompileModule is just for testing purposes, you shouldn't think about it as a real entry point
20:48:54  <bradleymeck>we do need, https://tc39.github.io/ecma262/#sec-createimportbinding
20:49:16  <bradleymeck>ModuleRecord structure from spec is good to go for us on what we need back from the parser
20:49:34  <bradleymeck>aklein: do you want a strawman C++ v8 api?
20:49:58  <aklein>bradleymeck: yeah, that would be interesting
20:50:18  <bradleymeck>I will put it in the intent to implement under an advisory header
20:50:35  <aklein>linking is going to be the tricky thing. it's not clear to me how that's going to work (and especially how to shape the API to make it not depend on details of the hosting environment)
20:53:25  <bradleymeck>can you clarify that a little, what depends on the hosting env?
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20:56:05  <bradleymeck>aklein: we were thinking we would create a ModuleRecord object which is exotic and bindings would be delegated to that
20:56:15  <aklein>well, there's the whole "sync vs async" thing that trevnorris brought up a lot last year
20:56:42  <bradleymeck>aklein: well the WhatWG loader is Promise heavy, but we ironed out compat problems
20:56:45  <aklein>ModuleRecords aren't JS objects (not even exotic ones), they're just spec constructs
20:57:17  <caitp>I think the idea is that the "dynamic" loader is async, always
20:57:22  <bradleymeck>correct
20:57:32  <bradleymeck>though the WhatWG Loader is async, node's Loader is sync
20:57:43  <bradleymeck>but we can be compatible in terms of Registry
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20:58:01  <caitp>but if you wanted to s/require("foo")/import "foo"/, you'd probably block
20:58:04  <bradleymeck>the Pipeline is separate for both and probably could never be unified
20:58:18  <bradleymeck>caitp: node's intent is to always block
20:58:27  <bradleymeck>summary video: youtube.com/watch?v=NdOKO-6Ty7k
20:58:37  <caitp>so then the api needs to be able to distinguish between chrome and node's two use cases there, you know?
20:58:42  <bradleymeck>no
20:58:46  <caitp>chrome could only block under specific conditions
20:58:47  <aklein>bradleymeck: is this an agreed-upon thing among node core folks?
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21:00:05  <bradleymeck>aklein: it is me and trevor, whatwg is giving us help to ensure this works fine mostly via @caridy, tc39 talks with Caridy and Jeff Morrison are starting since I pushed out that video
21:00:36  <bradleymeck>we are writing up the specifics and pushing to https://github.com/nodejs/node-eps soon
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21:01:06  <bradleymeck>though whatwg and tc39 are not too involved in node until we start making noise, which I guess makes sense
21:02:12  <bradleymeck>aklein: once the eps lands TSC gives +/- , most likely a +
21:02:24  <caitp>i'm sure that will change once domenic ports bikeshed and etc to a node app
21:02:37  <bradleymeck>what will?
21:02:44  <bradleymeck>oh the involvement
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22:17:23  <jgi>bradleymeck: where is this discussion happening within the node project?
22:18:01  <bradleymeck>jgi: was mostly behind doors, now that eps has been made we are migrating stuff to https://github.com/bmeck/node-eps/blob/es6-module/001-es6-modules.md
22:18:25  <bradleymeck>jgi: need to write more docs, but a lot of the behavior is specified elsewhere
22:18:42  <jgi>bradleymeck: cool thanks!
22:19:19  * daviquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
22:20:35  <bradleymeck>jgi: if you have any questions feel free to ask
22:20:50  <jgi>bradleymeck: will do!
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